LX450 starting problems (1 Viewer)

[sbman]

hey. thanks.
so learning here and again thanks to all for feeding me good info. i found the FAQ.
for testing spark i can
1. squirt starter fluid into intake and crank it (no extra hands needed)
2. pull the plug from the coil off the distributor and hold it with a pair of welding gloves 12cm (?) which is like three or four inches or something away from the aluminum in the engine block?
3. hook up a timing light to each plug wire (make sure to point it the right way) and crank the engine (no extra hands needed if you can reach)?
4. on this one i am pulling the lead on one spark plug, insert a spark plug an then clipping it to the aluminum engine block somewhere and cranking (no extra hands needed)
5. not totally clear in this one but i can make (would kind of like to do this) or buy a spark plug tester that would test each cylinder?
does that sound right?
> i think i wasn't totally sure i admit about grounding plugs. i guess i can ground to the body of the frame or i can ground to a metal clip attached the engine?
THANKS

I've never used the coil wire to test for spark, but you don't want to hold it so far away if you do that. Only about 1/4 of an inch from some clean metal.

Yes you can buy all kinds of testers for spark plugs, wires, etc...

Focus on one method and get it done before worrying about what comes next much. Check to see if your horn works, check to see if your headlights work (per previous post) or find a meter and check those fusible links with it.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

@johheld point is that the CEL light needs to be on and that the three fusible links have to be good and in tact for the engine to start. He is 100% right on those. There are three fusible links that connect the battery to everything in the entire vehicle. They have names, odd ones, but they do have names.

#1 FLMain 1.25B
Runs the Horn/Dome Light/Ignition switch

#2 FLAM2.03P
Runs the EFI computer (CEL Light)

#3 FLMAIN 2.0L
Runs the Headlights, alternator, EFI 15A (fuel pump cutoff)

So you can put a meter on each of the three links and see if they are in tact, if you have a meter, and if you know what you are looking for. Looking at them visually is not good enough.

If your horn works, dome light works, then the #1 is OK. If the CEL light comes on, #2 is OK. If your headlights work, #3 is working.

hi sb,
another one here please as i study up? apologies i have to post as i try to study up.
for "fusible link" it is the "Main" and the "AM1" and the "AM2" shown here in this post? i don't think i quite understood this part until you broke it down a bit.
ALSO, i think i or understand i should say "it cranks and turns over but won't start"?
anyway given this is the case - i think i need to check 15A ECU-IG fuse since i don't check this in my first attempts?
also am i checking EFI Main Relay and Starter Cut Relay and Fuel Pump Relay because in all cases "cranking but not starting" would be a symptom of any of these being bad?

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I've never used the coil wire to test for spark, but you don't want to hold it so far away if you do that. Only about 1/4 of an inch from some clean metal.

Yes you can buy all kinds of testers for spark plugs, wires, etc...

Focus on one method and get it done before worrying about what comes next much. Check to see if your horn works, check to see if your headlights work (per previous post) or find a meter and check those fusible links with it.

thanks...

 

[sbman]

hi sb,
another one here please as i study up? apologies i have to post as i try to study up.
for "fusible link" it is the "Main" and the "AM1" and the "AM2" shown here in this post? i don't think i quite understood this part until you broke it down a bit.
ALSO, i think i or understand i should say "it cranks and turns over but won't start"?
anyway given this is the case - i think i need to check 15A ECU-IG fuse since i don't check this in my first attempts?
also am i checking EFI Main Relay and Starter Cut Relay and Fuel Pump Relay because in all cases "cranking but not starting" would be a symptom of any of these being bad?

The Main, AM1 and AM2 are the three fusible links, yes. Yes you are in a "cranks and turns over but won't start" situation. If you find yourself with a good CEL light, all three fusible links good and have spark, then yes you would be looking for a fuel issue. It's best to diagnose methodically one check at a time, in order.

 

[jonheld]

@johheld point is that the CEL light needs to be on and that the three fusible links have to be good and in tact for the engine to start. He is 100% right on those. There are three fusible links that connect the battery to everything in the entire vehicle. They have names, odd ones, but they do have names.

#1 FLMain 1.25B
Runs the Horn/Dome Light/Ignition switch

#2 FLAM2.03P
Runs the EFI computer (CEL Light)

#3 FLMAIN 2.0L
Runs the Headlights, alternator, EFI 15A (fuel pump cutoff)

So you can put a meter on each of the three links and see if they are in tact, if you have a meter, and if you know what you are looking for. Looking at them visually is not good enough.

If your horn works, dome light works, then the #1 is OK. If the CEL light comes on, #2 is OK. If your headlights work, #3 is working.

Below is modified from the Toyota EWD and color coded to show the paths of what each fusible link supplies.
On another note, the 15A EFI fuse is the main B+ to the ECU. It is constant hot, and removing it is the non-invasive way of resetting the ECU.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Below is modified from the Toyota EWD and color coded to show the paths of what each fusible link supplies.
On another note, the 15A EFI fuse is the main B+ to the ECU. It is constant hot, and removing it is the non-invasive way of resetting the ECU.

View attachment 3675172

THANKS JH!

 

[landcruiser3DP]

The Main, AM1 and AM2 are the three fusible links, yes. Yes you are in a "cranks and turns over but won't start" situation. If you find yourself with a good CEL light, all three fusible links good and have spark, then yes you would be looking for a fuel issue. It's best to diagnose methodically one check at a time, in order.

hey SB. JH,
thanks a ton.
i researched more last night with your help and read up this morning in the FSM and in the FAQ and went out this afternoon to start with the timing gun test (arrow on the clamp goes toward rhe cylinder and i put the trigger on the handle in an irwin clamp and laid it on the windshield) and tested one cyclinder.
then i was going to try the starter fluid test again.
but the light flashed and it was firing. then i tried a second wire and during that test it sort of sputtered to life. so i've let it run for a while and then turned it off and parked it again.
i am assuming the dead battery issue is due to the factory alarm or the ultragauge (or both).
the gas issue i am - well i am guessing it is just a mod sophisticate engine than my 2.7 L tacoma and maybe also higher compression or something.
both issues kind of stumped me honestly since i've never had that kind of problem with the first gen.
anyway i REALLY appreciate the polity to study up on a real world example. it's starting to make a little more sense to me these days.
also i sound my fluke Mm which i bought for $50 at a pawn shop years ago when i first started trying to bootstrap myself into this stuff.
i wasn't sure if i should put fuel stabilizer in now or just next time if i need to park it.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

hey SB. JH,
thanks a ton.
i researched more last night with your help and read up this morning in the FSM and in the FAQ and went out this afternoon to start with the timing gun test (arrow on the clamp goes toward rhe cylinder and i put the trigger on the handle in an irwin clamp and laid it on the windshield) and tested one cyclinder.
then i was going to try the starter fluid test again.
but the light flashed and it was firing. then i tried a second wire and during that test it sort of sputtered to life. so i've let it run for a while and then turned it off and parked it again.
i am assuming the dead battery issue is due to the factory alarm or the ultragauge (or both).
the gas issue i am - well i am guessing it is just a mod sophisticate engine than my 2.7 L tacoma and maybe also higher compression or something.
both issues kind of stumped me honestly since i've never had that kind of problem with the first gen.
anyway i REALLY appreciate the polity to study up on a real world example. it's starting to make a little more sense to me these days.
also i sound my fluke Mm which i bought for $50 at a pawn shop years ago when i first started trying to bootstrap myself into this stuff.
i wasn't sure if i should put fuel stabilizer in now or just next time if i need to park it.


View attachment 3675280

View attachment 3675281

View attachment 3675282

View attachment 3675283

here are the videos trying to test for spark and also showing it starting on like the second test.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[sbman]

here are the videos trying to test for spark and also showing it starting on like the second test.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Something changed while you were setting things up that caused it to start. Your photo reveals a non-standard extension of the fusible link circuits. The fusible links should be connected directly to the battery terminal, not to a bolt that is bolted through the plastic battery box.

That bolt is some kind of plated steel. Steel is only 3-15% as conductive as the same size cross section of copper, using a steel bolt for the primary electrical path for the entire vehicle is a bad idea. It would be one thing if the bolt was just sandwiching copper terminals together, applying force to keep them together, but it appears to have insulators (clear/white plastic rings) on both sides and the bolt is actually carrying the electrical load.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Something changed while you were setting things up that caused it to start. Your photo reveals a non-standard extension of the fusible link circuits. The fusible links should be connected directly to the battery terminal, not to a bolt that is bolted through the plastic battery box.

That bolt is some kind of plated steel. Steel is only 3-15% as conductive as the same size cross section of copper, using a steel bolt for the primary electrical path for the entire vehicle is a bad idea. It would be one thing if the bolt was just sandwiching copper terminals together, applying force to keep them together, but it appears to have insulators (clear/white plastic rings) on both sides and the bolt is actually carrying the electrical load.

hey! so two separate issues. well three really.
the first being i really really want to thank you for the help. it's so hard to get expert advice but also it's so hard to get deliberate methodical instructions. like i'm starting to wrap my head around "macro thinking" on a vehicle like this so i can dial in on "micro" troubleshooting like described in the FSM. it's not an easy skillset to try to wrap your head around i've found.
anyway the cable bolt washer nut deal came as part of a battery hold down i bought. i bought a 31 series battery and for a long time held out trying to figure out how to modify the OEM to hold it down. then i gave up and bought this.
first i started using just the hold down but it tore through the fiberglass tray.
but then the other issue is every time i had to take the battery out i had to slip the fusible link to the engine side of the box because its attached to the harness and it was sort of sketchy. so finally i broke down and also instilled the red cable and washer and nut situation that came with it. honestly that part has been fine but i also was not excited about adding another connection. so after a couple of washers and a bunch of epoxy repair at the bottom of my battery tray this is what i have. i'm happy to go back to something else if you suggest so.
or alternatively you are saying i could buy some copper bolts and nuts and washers i can do this.
i actually have a kind of technical question like this about grounds that i ran across when first working on my motorcycle learning to wrench but i will save this for later.
regarding anything changing i don't think so. meaning i had someone else say that my video sounded like theirs and they had to spray starter fluid and eventually it started. it kind of gave me hope it wouldn't be some kind of long half learning half troubleshooting electrical process.
anyway, my /feeling when it first happened was it just needed a bit of throttle. like if it was my motorcycle i would have given it a little blip with the throttle. and actually i did give it a bit of a pump on the accelerator a couple times to the point i thought i could smell a bit of fuel (not positive about this).
also i am not entirely sure if a pro would say about whether they can get a spidey sense as to what or when it is electrical versus fuel (genuinely curious about this).
anyway i literally took the air filter cover off and the air filter out and then shot starter fluid in. then closed it up.
the ONE caveat i will add to this is that as i was reading FSM and starting problems FAQ and some other stuff i squirreled away i ran across the MAF a couple of times. i /have/ had an issue with a broken MAF connector and i meant to look at it as an easy troubleshooting step. so actually that is the one place i would not be "sticking to my story" about that.
of course very happy to get all your input on this stuff.

 

[sbman]

hey! so two separate issues. well three really.
the first being i really really want to thank you for the help. it's so hard to get expert advice but also it's so hard to get deliberate methodical instructions. like i'm starting to wrap my head around "macro thinking" on a vehicle like this so i can dial in on "micro" troubleshooting like described in the FSM. it's not an easy skillset to try to wrap your head around i've found.
anyway the cable bolt washer nut deal came as part of a battery hold down i bought. i bought a 31 series battery and for a long time held out trying to figure out how to modify the OEM to hold it down. then i gave up and bought this.
first i started using just the hold down but it tore through the fiberglass tray.
but then the other issue is every time i had to take the battery out i had to slip the fusible link to the engine side of the box because its attached to the harness and it was sort of sketchy. so finally i broke down and also instilled the red cable and washer and nut situation that came with it. honestly that part has been fine but i also was not excited about adding another connection. so after a couple of washers and a bunch of epoxy repair at the bottom of my battery tray this is what i have. i'm happy to go back to something else if you suggest so.
or alternatively you are saying i could buy some copper bolts and nuts and washers i can do this.
i actually have a kind of technical question like this about grounds that i ran across when first working on my motorcycle learning to wrench but i will save this for later.
regarding anything changing i don't think so. meaning i had someone else say that my video sounded like theirs and they had to spray starter fluid and eventually it started. it kind of gave me hope it wouldn't be some kind of long half learning half troubleshooting electrical process.
anyway, my /feeling when it first happened was it just needed a bit of throttle. like if it was my motorcycle i would have given it a little blip with the throttle. and actually i did give it a bit of a pump on the accelerator a couple times to the point i thought i could smell a bit of fuel (not positive about this).
also i am not entirely sure if a pro would say about whether they can get a spidey sense as to what or when it is electrical versus fuel (genuinely curious about this).
anyway i literally took the air filter cover off and the air filter out and then shot starter fluid in. then closed it up.
the ONE caveat i will add to this is that as i was reading FSM and starting problems FAQ and some other stuff i squirreled away i ran across the MAF a couple of times. i /have/ had an issue with a broken MAF connector and i meant to look at it as an easy troubleshooting step. so actually that is the one place i would not be "sticking to my story" about that.
of course very happy to get all your input on this stuff.

Well the battery isn't the right size, so that's your main problem. Also, the terminals are in the wrong location. I don't understand creating new problems by going with a non standard size. I realize the Northstar AGM is an expensive, high end battery, but it can be had in the proper size.

NSB-AGM24F - https://www.northstarbattery.com/product/nsb-agm24f

Personally I never run an AGM battery in an older vehicle as a start battery. The charging systems of older vehicles are designed for flooded batteries, and the float voltage output by the alternator will slowly cook an AGM and significantly reduce it's lifespan. But really you should put the proper size battery in no matter what brand and type you get and clamp it down properly and bolt the fusible links to the battery terminal it like it's supposed to be. The extra bolt, poor hold down and fusible link extension stuff is just an extra problem where there doesn't seem to be any advantage.

As far as spidey sense, no I think the more experience you have at troubleshooting, the more you learn to rely on using a methodical, systematic and logical approach and referencing available documentation to solve an issue. How you feel about it doesn't matter, and will mostly lead you astray. You do learn to recognize symptoms and what they mean better with more experience.

Something definitely changed to cause it to start, it was just cranking endlessly before. It's going to have the same issue come up again, the same mystery no start issue will reoccur until you find the source of the issue. When you opened the air cleaner to put starting fluid, you also moved the MAF sensor and wiring because it's attached to the intake tube. Maybe you have a bad connection there. It will NOT start if the MAF isn't connected properly, so it could have simply been moving the air cleaner cover around that 'fixed' it.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Well the battery isn't the right size, so that's your main problem. Also, the terminals are in the wrong location. I don't understand creating new problems by going with a non standard size. I realize the Northstar AGM is an expensive, high end battery, but it can be had in the proper size.

NSB-AGM24F - https://www.northstarbattery.com/product/nsb-agm24f

Personally I never run an AGM battery in an older vehicle as a start battery. The charging systems of older vehicles are designed for flooded batteries, and the float voltage output by the alternator will slowly cook an AGM and significantly reduce it's lifespan. But really you should put the proper size battery in no matter what brand and type you get and clamp it down properly and bolt the fusible links to the battery terminal it like it's supposed to be. The extra bolt, poor hold down and fusible link extension stuff is just an extra problem where there doesn't seem to be any advantage.

As far as spidey sense, no I think the more experience you have at troubleshooting, the more you learn to rely on using a methodical, systematic and logical approach and referencing available documentation to solve an issue. How you feel about it doesn't matter, and will mostly lead you astray. You do learn to recognize symptoms and what they mean better with more experience.

Something definitely changed to cause it to start, it was just cranking endlessly before. It's going to have the same issue come up again, the same mystery no start issue will reoccur until you find the source of the issue. When you opened the air cleaner to put starting fluid, you also moved the MAF sensor and wiring because it's attached to the intake tube. Maybe you have a bad connection there. It will NOT start if the MAF isn't connected properly, so it could have simply been moving the air cleaner cover around that 'fixed' it.

roger that. THANKS.
i'll keep an eye on it.
also i will probably go back to stock size. . i'm not totally sure how i got sucked into buying the larger one.
i'll also read up on flooded batteries versus AGM.