Long Range Tank Questions (1 Viewer)

[lcwizard]

because...

Expeditions ended a long time ago in the USA.
The country is now infested with gas stations.
49 gallons of gas weighs a little over 300 lbs.
No car (in the USA) needs to have a 700 mile cruising range, so (most) don't.

I purchased a 190L ARB gas tank in 1988. ARB discontinued it long ago. Pity. Aluminum. It's awesome (like all of ARB' stuff is). Spare 31" tire fits perfect inside car on RR side with clamp bar. I got it for long trips to Baja Mexico. It is the correct size of gas tank for down there if you want to explore.

If you don't want a 2X size tank under your car and pay the price, look no further than Blitz.

fred

But what about those 5~7 day camping trips. One of my biggest disappointments was at the end of a 6 day over the Blue Notch/ Canyonlands area.
The last leg of the trip was Doll House, then on into the Canyonlands to explore the countless roads that go everywhere. I had to cut it short because I only had two gerry cans. I still had 100 miles of exploring to do. The closest gas is at Hite Marina on Lake Powell. It would have been a full day out and back to start where I left off. I didn't have the extra days. I usually go alone on those exploration trips so I can't risk running out of gas

 

[SWCruiser]

Agree with you there. In AZ there are plenty of places to run out of gas in the backcountry.

 

[rusty_tlc]

Agree with you there. In AZ there are plenty of places to run out of gas in the backcountry.

And Utah, and Nevada, and Idaho...........
It's not that you can't get 350 miles from a gas station in the contiguous US, it's that you might not want to get within 25 miles of a gas station. For example I can drive from Reno to Las Vegas, 450 miles on pavement, or I can drive from Reno to Las Vegas on ~500+ miles of dirt roads.

Which would you choose?

 

[atomicshawn]

@ Fred. ^^^ See brother? I'm not the only one. You got to consider we're not the sharpest tools in the shed when doing the tongue-in-cheek stuff man. You needs to be more obvious. Yer firing up the masses

...And apparently your explanation got skipped over, suggesting some of us got some ADD issues as well...

Jk. All in jest. I hope you're getting MY humor

In all serious though, I want to clarify something about my comments some posts back when I suggested a "simple" but "not perfect" approach to increasing fuel capacity is possible by using a oem tank from another application. By "not perfect" I was referring to fit and/or desired capacity, not anything that would compromise safety. And I would challenge you a bit on using my words to imply that the "complicated" and "over-engineered" approach is the one that "should" be taken because it's safer, i.e, the "tank" to "bomb" statement. My experience is that simple and quick does not always equal less safety. And complicated and over-engineered does not always equal more safety. An example of what I mean might be restraint systems. I'm sure the technological complexity and time and dollar investment in the R&D of airbag systems far exceeds that of seat belts. Yet belts do a much better job:
http://freakonomics.com/2005/07/18/which-would-you-rather-have-a-seat-belt-or-an-air-bag/

A more tragic, albeit less applicable example is the SS Eastland. In 1915 this ship rolled over and killed more than 840 passengers and crew. From the Eastland Memorial Society:
"...the Eastland's top-heaviness was largely due to the amount and weight of the lifeboats required on her... The sinking of the Titanic in 1912... led to the demand for more lifesaving lifeboat capacity for passengers of ships. ...lifeboats made the Eastland less not more safe..."

Not saying complex is bad, or that one shouldn't be uber cautious when modifying the fuel system, just suggesting that going the simple route doesn't necessarily mean compromising safety.

 

[Slow Left]

Ebay australia site, theres a factory aux tank that sits inside frame rail on my aussie passenger side so drivers for all u yanks. Thatll extend ur range. Personally i have the 4wd systems lrt 190 litre gets me 1500 to 1600 odd ks.

On what side of the vehicle (Aus PS or Aus DS) is the fuel cap (for fueling up the tank) on the factory tanks in OZ?

Here in the States the fuel cap is on the US PS (so, Aus DS).

I wonder if a Aus factory tank is a direct fit for US tanks...?

 

[traveldud]

CruiserPilot,

You mind sharing photos of the top of that extra tank? Where the line go, hole is, ...? Are you going to open up the tank to figure out the baffle arrangement and any other interesting features? Thanks.

Slow Left,

I just looking at some images in Australia. LHS the filler neck sits on.

 

[traveldud]

Slow Left...I'm slower and must have been half asleep. The filler neck IS on the PS, like the US.

 

[Output Shaft]

@ Fred. ^^^ See brother?... Yer firing up the masses

Ok, Here is some water.

I was simply agreeing with you.
Anyway, it just seems to me, that anyone who is thinking of building their own tank to hold 300 lbs. of gasoline and then strapping it underneath their car, then flying over whoop dee doos offroad, without any prior experience or guidance on how to do so, the prudent coarse of action would be to take one's time and consider every aspect of the design and build everything carefully and up to other Land Cruiser standards.. aka, well designed and overbuilt... As the consequences are pretty clear what could happen in a Rear End Collision with an improperly designed tank.

 

[cruiserpilot]

CruiserPilot,

You mind sharing photos of the top of that extra tank? Where the line go, hole is, ...? Are you going to open up the tank to figure out the baffle arrangement and any other interesting features? Thanks.

Slow Left,

I just looking at some images in Australia. LHS the filler neck sits on.

Yes, I can do that. I'll put up a cardboard sign with measurements etc. on it.
I am not sure I will cut this tank up, I hope to see what I need through the two openings on top. What amazes me is how the tank physically doesn't need to be really large to double capacity. I'm concerned with venting and structural integrity primarily. I have to admit to being slightly
baffled by baffle design
OutputShaft has legitimate concern; I don't want to build something that is dangerous through lack of planning or oversight. I won't do my own
welding on this, it requires a welder with a ticket and sealed welding ability.
I think all 60 series body designs are the same, aside from
steering. I think of RH and LH, and filler necks on all 60s' are RH side.

 

[atomicshawn]

I'm loving this... Yes! Flames! Death! Destruction! Innocent women and children being killed by giant boats rolling over! Not even crappy airbags to protect them! The world is a dangerous place. People should be careful. I think we both get that. What I am saying, and having a hard time seeing where you have agreed, is that taking a simple approach doesn't necessarily mean thoughtless, reckless or dangerous. And that maybe, just maybe, sometimes, the opposite is true, and over-engineering becomes problematic and even dangerous, hence the name, over-engineered.

For sure, be careful, thoughtful, look around. Don't be an idiot. Take note of obvious problems. Moving parts. Electrical circuits. The main power cable to my rear winch was routed AWAY from the fuel tanks. Think about where that bolt or bracket might go if someone crashes into you, or if you roll over (which is more likely my fate). Etc...

I'm not an engineer, but I spend my days working through problems that arise due to the perceptual limitations inherent to the human condition. I think we all get that we have these limitations. I think we all understand it is impossible for anyone to account for all of the potentially hazardous variables when adding a fuel cell only by looking at it and thinking about it. It seems manufacturers understand this as well. There comes a time they put their calculators and protractors away and smash their junk and watch what happens because they couldn't have known any other way. I doubt any of us have that luxury. Clearly it's a different game when an OEM tank is fitted to a different application, but chances are that tank has been put to the test FAR more than anything I can create in my garage.

 

[Slow Left]

Slow Left...I'm slower and must have been half asleep. The filler neck IS on the PS, like the US.

Well, I may very well be missing the logic of this problem (thus my simple questions)...but I vaguely remember some other recent threads about Americans pooling together to source and do a group buy for long range tanks...either built here in the States or imported from OZ.

But since I lack the particulars, I'll try not to muddy the waters anymore for you...just wish you success and hope to learn that there is indeed a solution(s) for us in the States to do some sort of tank swap/add on that is safe and reliable...

Cheers!

 

[traveldud]

Fred, next time you're under the vehicle, could you share what width those welds and if they're overlapping? It looks almost as if they bead rolled the edges as well (guessing?), overlapped and welded them (possibly from both the inside and) outside. Probably baffled for added strength and then sealed (guessing?) with one heavier gauged piece.

Here's the link (http://www.thelongranger.com.au/features/index.html) to Lone Ranger and only replied to making an auxiliary tanks btw; Costs more than 4wd systems large tanks (still haven't heard back from them either). Again the longranger link is just for simpler reference. It goes over their product highlights

This link (http://www.4wdsystems.com.au/img/photos/1279978983-TR01 .jpg) is to the 4wd systems, which is not too different from Fred's in shape. 190L. One of the used tanks that sold from here also had a built in skid plate...seems useful and would be easier no the square design. I was surprisded

CruiserPilot, thanks in advance for sharing whatever photos. I hope we'll be able to bounce some ideas off each other as we make progress.

 

[Output Shaft]

could you share what width those welds are and if they're overlapping?

Here are some enlargements.



Yes, now that I look at it, the sides don't look like they were just flat pieces of AL welded to a corner joint to the bottom.

It looks like the edges on this tank were formed at a right angle so the bottom-sides piece then had a lip to rest on. I do not recall if it was welded inside. Undoubtedly everything was laser cut prior to bending.

But remember... it would be pretty dang hard to match the capabilities that ARB has.
(not a tank, but making a bumber below)

 

[traveldud]

That's the beauty of your tank...it really is just a few pieces (minus whatever is inside). The link to 4wdsystems is very similar except via a box or hydraulic brake. It's not as elegant as yours, however just as functional. I'll need to search more on the internals, vent tube number (one in each corner, etc., and how they're run, baffles, etc.).... TANK YOU! ...some cheesy humor!

 

[Output Shaft]

Your weldcome!

 

[traveldud]

Video is cool...now let's dig up on tanks!

 

[lcwizard]

Few OEM gas tanks use conventional butt welded plates positioned edge to edge. They are almost always mechanically electro seam welded. I'm sure you-tube has a video or two. Because of the initial investment this is cost prohibitive for most small custom tank shops. The down side of typical manual butt welded tanks is once they almost always a have a pinhole here and there that needs to be chased down and fixed so the build is more time consuming.
Light gauge parts, such as sheet metal gas tanks, are overlapped with seam welding and the assemblies are almost always first run perfect.
Mechanized seam welders are also used for butt welds where long continuous weld are required such as the closing welds of HREW (hot rolled electro weld ) tubing, which is the most common tubing on the market . DOM HREW, CREW and ERW tubing is all seam welded. CDS is less common and starts life as a seamless tube before being drawn over mandrel.

 

[traveldud]

4wd systems got back to me(was on leave) and said they're looking into freight. They were receptive to a larger order if there is interest. I don'tknow as of yet numbers of any sort...tbc...

 

[traveldud]

anyone have photos of the top of an original gas tank? Thanks...

 

[cruiserpilot]

I'll get to some photos later on today . I've been trying to get some rust repair in rear wheel wells completed and sealed, and
painted in prep for a road trip through the rockies next week. Got me sidetracked.