It could be the wrong orientation, but I believe it matches the factory ends, care to elaborate a bit?
Not sure I would want to be under the vehicle with the weight on it while installing the radius arms. haha.
Let's end the control arm bushing debate (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter dude47
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It could be the wrong orientation, but I believe it matches the factory ends, care to elaborate a bit?
Not sure I would want to be under the vehicle with the weight on it while installing the radius arms. haha.
alia176
SILVER Star
The weight of the vehicle is on the suspension so removing one or both radius arms usually results in the front axle housing turning one way or the other. Nothing else happens, no really
alia176
SILVER Star
It's been a while since I've done this but I recall using a 3" ratchet strap to rotate the axle housing back. Furthermore, I think I pulled one radius arm at a time, in order to minimize this rotation. Our 80s sit so high, doing suspension work w/o lifting or driving up on ramps really isn't required IMHO.
FSM states to tighten all suspension hardware with the vehicle fully resting on the suspension. They want you to jostle the vehicle side to side and front to back in order to get everything settled before torquing the hardware to specs,
Ok, I get you on the “one at a time” thing, though I’m not sure I’d do that with the longest arm in the back.
Back to needing to have the weight of the vehicle on them to avoid damaging them, I still don’t see that. I can get behind wanting things to settle in before tightening, like how the head is torqued down in sequence at slightly higher torque settings, but I still haven’t seen a rational as to how that helps with bushings. They have a steel inner sleeve that is tight between the bracket. The metal sleeve of the bushing is either rotating on the bolt, or it is flexing (rotationally) if that bolt is tightened hard enough clamping the bracket onto the bushing insert.
Perhaps overtightening it causes bushings to wear more as the inner sleeve can’t rotate as its clamped in place and that isn’t the design, or maybe it is.
Perhaps we should be thinking about getting the sleeve in the bushings drilled out a hair, and using a slightly larger bolt, which is drilled with a grease fitting. You’d have to double but the bolt to prevent it from loosening up. The lower control arms have thicker material at front and back, and are thinner at top and bottom for twisting forces to rotate easier (I believe) but will absorb forces of compression (braking or acceleration). If the sleeve of the bushing is clamped tightly, the twisting forced during axle articulation put the forces on the bushings differently as they are twisted and bent at the same time.
Just thinking out loud here.
Back to needing to have the weight of the vehicle on them to avoid damaging them, I still don’t see that. I can get behind wanting things to settle in before tightening, like how the head is torqued down in sequence at slightly higher torque settings, but I still haven’t seen a rational as to how that helps with bushings. They have a steel inner sleeve that is tight between the bracket. The metal sleeve of the bushing is either rotating on the bolt, or it is flexing (rotationally) if that bolt is tightened hard enough clamping the bracket onto the bushing insert.
Perhaps overtightening it causes bushings to wear more as the inner sleeve can’t rotate as its clamped in place and that isn’t the design, or maybe it is.
Perhaps we should be thinking about getting the sleeve in the bushings drilled out a hair, and using a slightly larger bolt, which is drilled with a grease fitting. You’d have to double but the bolt to prevent it from loosening up. The lower control arms have thicker material at front and back, and are thinner at top and bottom for twisting forces to rotate easier (I believe) but will absorb forces of compression (braking or acceleration). If the sleeve of the bushing is clamped tightly, the twisting forced during axle articulation put the forces on the bushings differently as they are twisted and bent at the same time.
Just thinking out loud here.
I think you answered your own question. The point, as I understand it, of having the vehicle resting on the suspension before you torque the bolts is to have the bushings at ride height. This, one would presume, limits uneeded stress in the bushing material. If the bolts are torqued with the weight off (read suspension out of position) then the bushings are under stress almost 100% of the time.
There is no issue whatsoever of doing one radius arm at a time under the truck. It's still sitting on the tires. I did mine in a driveway that is NOT flat. I did not need ratchet straps. I literally pushed the bolts back into each hole by hand. (No hammers reuired)
The center steel bushing IS designed to be clamped in place between the brackets. That's what makes the rotational forces on these bushings work. If they rotated, they'd be somewhat pointless.
You leave them loose, then make sure the weight of the truck is on them in order to set the rotational forces to be in the "neutral" position when they start so they don't tear the bushings just driving down the road. This way they are not flexing to the max with every bump. If you let the suspension hang, then tighten everything, the bushings would fail in short order because they would be twisting the rubber as soon as there was weight on it, then every bump would push the rubber past its failure point.
the question I'm left wondering is: is the bushing sleeve designed to rotate with the control arm its attached to, or remain fixed to the mount it is being tightened between? I can't see how an a 80 flexing off-road wouldn't destroy a bushing quickly if the latter were correct, but also don't see the ride height while torquing would matter if it weren't.
Have yellow OME bushings, 5+ years, appear to be in a good shape still, closer to 40k miles on them, daily driven
Hmm. I think I see where your going. There is some sense there.
I think the description earlier that (I’ll paraphrase) “if you tighten them when there isn’t load on them you will damage them” is kind of misleading. It would be long term stress because they have a constant twist to them if the bolts are torqued down when axles are higher or lower than regular running position.
I read that as they would be damaged during install, which isn’t what I think was the message meant to say.
However, every single person who lifts their rig, be it 2”, 3” or 6” is also putting the same un needed stress on the bushings unless the loosen all bushings (except front two on radius arms) and retorque after lift is installed.
This actually does imply how we may be getting shorter lifespan out of bushings by not doing this, however my situation is very different and it kind of implies that there may not be as much damage to bushings from tightening when higher or lower than normal running condition than is suspected. I’m on airbags and am constantly running at different heights, and parking it in the garage with it dropped low, airbags empty. No obvious or visual damage with the bushings I’ve just replaced. I’m pulling the arms and lengthening (rear lowers) as part of my one ton swap currently and have them out at the moment.
Edit:
207k miles, in my garage at present pulling the bushings, this is how they are (just pulled out of garage can, bit of paint on them)
I think the description earlier that (I’ll paraphrase) “if you tighten them when there isn’t load on them you will damage them” is kind of misleading. It would be long term stress because they have a constant twist to them if the bolts are torqued down when axles are higher or lower than regular running position.
I read that as they would be damaged during install, which isn’t what I think was the message meant to say.
However, every single person who lifts their rig, be it 2”, 3” or 6” is also putting the same un needed stress on the bushings unless the loosen all bushings (except front two on radius arms) and retorque after lift is installed.
This actually does imply how we may be getting shorter lifespan out of bushings by not doing this, however my situation is very different and it kind of implies that there may not be as much damage to bushings from tightening when higher or lower than normal running condition than is suspected. I’m on airbags and am constantly running at different heights, and parking it in the garage with it dropped low, airbags empty. No obvious or visual damage with the bushings I’ve just replaced. I’m pulling the arms and lengthening (rear lowers) as part of my one ton swap currently and have them out at the moment.
Edit:
207k miles, in my garage at present pulling the bushings, this is how they are (just pulled out of garage can, bit of paint on them)
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I don't know with certainty but I would think it depends on which bushing. I think the rear ones will rotate under sufficient force. The weight of the front axle and tires combined with the leverage of the control arms would almost certainly cause the inner bushing sleeve to slip on the bolt. However, that doesn't mean it would move under less-than-extreme displacement of the suspension (normal bumps and road variance). The front bushings, on the other hand, don't have the same opportunity to move because they fight against each other. So the short answer to your question, depending on the situation, is probably "both".
Dave 2000
Not all Land Rovers are useless!
I recently changed mine and Toyota did change the orientation of the bush within the arm over time and I checked back here for the diagram. The bush on one end is horizontal and the other it is vertical, the bush in the picture is neither, so once bolted in it will be installed incorrectly.
When you set the vehicle correctly the axle does not rotate when the arm is removed. Put on the handbrake and chock both the front and rear wheels. Remove one arm at a time and replace the bush and then replace the arm.
The voids in the bushes allow it to flex when the suspension travels. Once both of the arms are in place and the bolts are loose and the vehicle is not loaded, climb on the back bumper and jump up and down a couple of times to settle the suspension, now you can tighten the bolts. This sets the arms and of course the bush voids in a neutral position allowing them to flex in relation to suspension movement.
My 80 is stock height so getting under there to do the job with lifting it was not an option. My sylph like figure not helping. LOL.
You need to understand the actual rubber bushing sleeve does not rotate within the arm. The inner part of the bush is clamped between the body member again preventing rotation, the bush pressed into the arm also prevents rotation, the movement comes from the voided rubber flexing between the two.
Correct.
The bushing stays in the same position within the arm, tightening at right height as pointed out above sets the bushing correct in relation to the vehicles normal ride height. The anti roll bars/bump stops/shock absorbers all work together limiting suspension movement during articulation, the bushes will not tear out if installed correctly.
Regards
Dave
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alia176
SILVER Star
Beating this dead horse even more.....I don't think any of the toyota bushings with metal sleeves are designed to rotate once the hardware is torqued down. That's why Toyota wants us to keep the hardware loose, drop the weight of the vehicle on the suspension, rock the vehicle, then tighten to spec. This method ensures that we're not putting a preload/pre-twist on the sleeves before tightening to spec. Remember that the interior metal sleeves are getting squeezed by the mounting ears after you tighten the hardware to spec so they're not allowed to rotate.
This method is also employed on the IFS vehicles, same concept. Don't put a pre-twist on the metal sleeve before tightening. Otherwise, the rubber will be living with a constant twist while your vehicle just sits on the driveway, thereby shortening the life span of the bushings.
This method is also employed on the IFS vehicles, same concept. Don't put a pre-twist on the metal sleeve before tightening. Otherwise, the rubber will be living with a constant twist while your vehicle just sits on the driveway, thereby shortening the life span of the bushings.
alia176
SILVER Star
Yeah, that's a good point actually.
Now I am concerned....
Are the holes for the frame side/radius arm supposed to sit in the 3 & 9 o-clock position or the 6 & 12 o-clock position?
Are the holes for the frame side/radius arm supposed to sit in the 3 & 9 o-clock position or the 6 & 12 o-clock position?
See the attached TSB document.
Nice, thank you. Looks like I did them right. I just put them in the same as the old ones. I didn't give it more thought than that lol.
Does the fsm not explain bushing installation?
This is how the bushings in my delta arms were installed when I unboxed them and is really the only way that makes sense when you think about how the bushing needs to deflect as the arm twists in te bracket.
