any progress?
Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62
- Thread starter astr
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- Thread starter
- #562
Lots of progress, but unfortunately not on this project. I hope to get back to this project when I get back home at the end of the month.
I am looking forward to seeing more about this project! really considering this approach...
Astr,
I've been a silent visitor here for a while. I like your ideas and the help from your thread has got my project going. Thanks for all of the information on the 4BD and HE it's truely helped more than I could say!!
Not exactly a 4x4 friendly project, I apologise, I'm a man of many interests and have had one of everything. I'm putting a 4he1tc into a 99 s10 that is bagged and lowered. I'm in the mock up stages such as yourself, and there is no way that I can keep the startor in the original location. I've got a couple of questions going back to swapping to the 6 cylinder rear housing. sorry this is off topic.
does any of the rear geartrain need to be swapped?
are there any transmissions that you would reccomend that would fit this housing and be a little lighter duty for my application. I'm leaning toward finding a Allison, but definatly don't need the capacity like what that size truck would offer. I wonder if the pickup model comes with that size housing?
any and all information is greatly appreciated. My build is in the member forums so I am not sure if you will be able to view it. If you would like to email me directly I understand. bdt_00_buckshot@yahoo.com
D^3 Hypocrisy - S-10 Forum
I've been a silent visitor here for a while. I like your ideas and the help from your thread has got my project going. Thanks for all of the information on the 4BD and HE it's truely helped more than I could say!!
Not exactly a 4x4 friendly project, I apologise, I'm a man of many interests and have had one of everything. I'm putting a 4he1tc into a 99 s10 that is bagged and lowered. I'm in the mock up stages such as yourself, and there is no way that I can keep the startor in the original location. I've got a couple of questions going back to swapping to the 6 cylinder rear housing. sorry this is off topic.
does any of the rear geartrain need to be swapped?
are there any transmissions that you would reccomend that would fit this housing and be a little lighter duty for my application. I'm leaning toward finding a Allison, but definatly don't need the capacity like what that size truck would offer. I wonder if the pickup model comes with that size housing?
any and all information is greatly appreciated. My build is in the member forums so I am not sure if you will be able to view it. If you would like to email me directly I understand. bdt_00_buckshot@yahoo.com
D^3 Hypocrisy - S-10 Forum
- Thread starter
- #565
First of all let me state that I have personally never seen an actual 6HE1 let alone had a chance to compare one with a 4HE1 so all that follows is pure speculation.
I believe that the 6HE1's with the starter mounted forward of the flywheel probably had flywheel housings with an SAE transmission pattern as is typical of heavy duty applications. I would also assume that Allison truck\bus transmissions also have the SAE pattern. I know that 6HE1's were available with Allison transmissions. I don't know which ones. So, if you could switch a flywheel housing from a 6HE1 to a 4HE1 then you would be able to use the Allisons and any other transmission that has the SAE bolt pattern. As to whether you could actually swap a 6HE1 flywheel housing on to a 4HE1, I don't know but my guess is that it would be possible. To research the compatibility further, I would start comparing part numbers for the various gears and other components that are housed in the flywheel housing. If you decide to try it, be sure to post your results here!
Regarding which transmission would be best for your application, I don't have any idea as I'm not familiar with the characteristics of the various automatic transmission that are available. Maybe other forum members can offer some suggestions.
- Thread starter
- #566
I'm Impressed!
I finally had some time to get back to my project. Before pulling the 3FE in the 62, I wanted to do some test runs of the hybrid AW450 transmission behind the Isuzu 4HE1TC in the NPR truck. I had previously only been able to run it up on jack stands. Well, today I finally got a chance to actually try it out on the short service road next to the shop.
Everything seems to be working great! Shifts are nice and crisp but not jarring. The transmission seems to shift where I would expect it to shift based on how hard I was accelerating. In spite of the short "test track", I was able to get it to go through all of the gears, including OD. The only thing I didn't see was an indication of lockup of the torque converter but may be due to the shortness of the "test track".
Just for the heck of it, I did an accelerator-to-the-floor test run in "D" over a fixed distance. I let the transmission do all the gear selection. The NPR hit close to 50 mph in the distance. I ran the same test in my stock FJ62 and got a tad over 35 mph. I'm stoked
I realize there are many variables not accounted for but considering that the NPR in its current configuration is about the same weight as the 62, I'm convinced that the swap will be a winner.
I wanted to do more test but ran out of day light (NPR has no headlight) so had to hang it up. Unfortunately, I will be out of town next weekend so further testing will have to wait until the following weekend.
I finally had some time to get back to my project. Before pulling the 3FE in the 62, I wanted to do some test runs of the hybrid AW450 transmission behind the Isuzu 4HE1TC in the NPR truck. I had previously only been able to run it up on jack stands. Well, today I finally got a chance to actually try it out on the short service road next to the shop.
Everything seems to be working great! Shifts are nice and crisp but not jarring. The transmission seems to shift where I would expect it to shift based on how hard I was accelerating. In spite of the short "test track", I was able to get it to go through all of the gears, including OD. The only thing I didn't see was an indication of lockup of the torque converter but may be due to the shortness of the "test track".
Just for the heck of it, I did an accelerator-to-the-floor test run in "D" over a fixed distance. I let the transmission do all the gear selection. The NPR hit close to 50 mph in the distance. I ran the same test in my stock FJ62 and got a tad over 35 mph. I'm stoked
I realize there are many variables not accounted for but considering that the NPR in its current configuration is about the same weight as the 62, I'm convinced that the swap will be a winner.I wanted to do more test but ran out of day light (NPR has no headlight) so had to hang it up. Unfortunately, I will be out of town next weekend so further testing will have to wait until the following weekend.
- Thread starter
- #568
Good point - I forgot about that. Yes, lockup will not occur until operating temp is reached so that could be it. I vaguely remember that when I was running the truck up on stands, I could count three shifts plus a torque converter lockup. But that was before I installed the solenoid indicator so I can't say for sure.
My truck will not lock the converter until up to temp AND the indicated speed is greater than 48MPH. The former is for good reason, the later is as well, but it is a bit frustrating. You see, the Fuso has a final drive ratio of 5.71:1 with 30" tall tires, my cruiser has stock gears at 4.11:1 with 33" tall tires. This is a combined final drive change of nearly 53%. So even though my cruiser isn't engagind the lockup until 48MPH, the Fuso TCU thinks it's only going a hair over 31MPH.
I am looking into reprogramming possibilities, or running a standalone TCU all together. It works fine for now, but I think greater driveability can be achieved with some transmission control tweaks.
I am looking into reprogramming possibilities, or running a standalone TCU all together. It works fine for now, but I think greater driveability can be achieved with some transmission control tweaks.
- Thread starter
- #570
I'll have to check and see what the final drive ratio on the NPR is. I suspect that it is similar to your Fuso. I remember reading somewhere in the Isuzu AW450 manual that the the transmission is supposed to lock up in 2nd, 3rd as well as OD. I wonder under what conditions it will lock up in 2nd & 3rd.
Reprogramming the TCU is a daunting task, however, once the code has been cracked, customizing to a specific set of parameters should be straight forward. I wonder if you could fool the TCU into thinking that it is going faster than it really is by increasing the number of pulses per revolution of the output shaft. Probably a bad idea as it would also mess up all the shift points. Dougal may be able to shed some light on what it would take to reprogram the TCU. IIRC, he has undertake and ECU reprogramming project.
It will also lock up in 3rd, I have not determined the exact vehicle speed in which it will yet. I have not had it lock up in second yet, but I haven't spent much time just cruising in that gear either.
I was thinking ov trying to fool the TCU by using a dakota digital converter on the output of the trans output shaft speed sensor, but that would likely screw up the shift points too much.
Something like this would likely work:
PCS - Powertrain Control Solutions - Transmission Control
- Thread starter
- #572
Had a little time to do some test runs this evening before it got dark. I warmed the engine and transmission up to within the operating range. I did the runs with the T-case in low range ( approximately 2:1 ratio) so the speeds were more appropriate to my pot-holed test track. Shifts were as expected in low range and I was able to get the torque converter to lock up in 2nd, 3rd & OD. To get it to lock up, I had too be running at a constant speed. The lockup in OD was around 20+ mph, which would be equivalent to the 48 mph that you got in high range.
I also tried a few wide open runs in high range. Riding the brake to put some load on the engine, I got the boost gauge up to about 12 psi. I don't know if this was limited by the waste gate setting or just ran out of exhaust heat. I didn't get an egt reading as my wife has absconded with my egt meter. She is using it to calibrate the oven as she bakes cookies
Had a little time to do some test runs this evening before it got dark. I warmed the engine and transmission up to within the operating range. I did the runs with the T-case in low range ( approximately 2:1 ratio) so the speeds were more appropriate to my pot-holed test track. Shifts were as expected in low range and I was able to get the torque converter to lock up in 2nd, 3rd & OD. To get it to lock up, I had too be running at a constant speed. The lockup in OD was around 20+ mph, which would be equivalent to the 48 mph that you got in high range.
I also tried a few wide open runs in high range. Riding the brake to put some load on the engine, I got the boost gauge up to about 12 psi. I don't know if this was limited by the waste gate setting or just ran out of exhaust heat. I didn't get an egt reading as my wife has absconded with my egt meter. She is using it to calibrate the oven as she bakes cookies
At least it's for a good cause.
Glad to hear the progress is positive.
Had a little time to do some test runs this evening before it got dark. I warmed the engine and transmission up to within the operating range. I did the runs with the T-case in low range ( approximately 2:1 ratio) so the speeds were more appropriate to my pot-holed test track. Shifts were as expected in low range and I was able to get the torque converter to lock up in 2nd, 3rd & OD. To get it to lock up, I had too be running at a constant speed. The lockup in OD was around 20+ mph, which would be equivalent to the 48 mph that you got in high range.
I also tried a few wide open runs in high range. Riding the brake to put some load on the engine, I got the boost gauge up to about 12 psi. I don't know if this was limited by the waste gate setting or just ran out of exhaust heat. I didn't get an egt reading as my wife has absconded with my egt meter. She is using it to calibrate the oven as she bakes cookies
I really appreciate you doing this testing. I think either TCU reprogramming, a standalone TCU, or a regear will be the only way to get the trans to truely behave like it did in the donor vehicle.
At least it's for a good cause.
Glad to hear the progress is positive.
Haha, I was thinking the same thing!
- Thread starter
- #575
A Few More Test Runs
I wanted to do some more testing of the hybrid AW450/A440F transmission in the NPR test mule before committing to yanking the 3FE out of the FJ62. Besides, it’s kinda fun playing with the diesel!
What I discovered the last time was that it was difficult trying to read all the gauges and remember the readings while navigating the pot holes on my “test track” so this time I mounted a video camera to record the gauge readings (Photo 1). Not the best setup as everything shakes and vibrates, often blurring the image. But, better than nothing. Photo 2 shows my final instrumentation package. The digital meter shows pre-turbo egts, two of the pressure gauges read pre and post turbo exhaust back pressure, and the third shows boost. The little thingy to the left of the egt display indicates which solenoids are being activated by the TCM. 1 is Shift Solenoid 1, 2 is Shift Solenoid 2, LU is the torque converter lockup solenoid, and T is the Shift Timing solenoid. I haven’t quite figured out exactly how the shift timing solenoid works yet but it does flash on and off with each shift. Above, on top of the dash, is an FJ62 tach that has been a bit flaky recently. As I rev the engine, it will follow the rpm until around 2,500 rpm, then it drops back to zero so I really don’t know what rpms I was achieving during the tests.
First, I wanted to see how the transmission shifted and whether I could get TC lockup. After warming up the truck and transmission, I made several runs with the T-case in high. Reviewing the videos, showed lockup in 3rd & OD. I tried the test again w/ trans in 2nd gear. Got lockup also. As it was difficult to achieve any speed due to the rough condition of my test road, I repeated the tests with the T-case in low. Here, even in D, I could clearly see lockup occurring in 2nd, 3rd, and OD. The TCM would always unlock the torque converter prior to shifting. With the T-case in low, shifts are a bit abrupt. With the T-case in high, the shifts are very nice and the TCM nicely matches the shift points to the torque characteristics of the 4HE1.
Next, I wanted to see what kind of boost and EGT’s I was achieving. I would run at full throttle, using the brakes to put additional load on the engine. With the T-case in high and the transmission in 2nd, I only ran wide open for 15 to 20 seconds. Boost topped out at 12 psi with max egt of 950*F. Pre-turbo exhaust back pressure reached 20 psi. Next, I clamped off the pressure tube to the wastegate actuator (Photo 3) and reran the same test. This effectively disabled the wastegate. Boost topped out at around 20 psi but max egt dropped to 875*F while exhaust back pressure reached 30 psi. I never did get any reading on the post turbo exhaust backpressure gauge.
In retrospect, clamping off the pressure tube to the wastegate actuator may not have completely disabled the wastegate. Next time, I’ll clamp the rod from the actuator so the wastegate cannot open because of exhaust back pressure.
Finally, I wanted to clear up the confusion regarding the TCM speed sensors. There are two sensors that feed speed information to the TCM, a primary and a backup sensor. According to the FSM, the primary sensor is VSS-2 and is the one attached to the speedometer gear and the backup sensor is VSS-1, which is only used if the primary fails, and is the sensor adjacent to the park gear. In the standard setup in an NPR truck, it really wouldn’t make any difference as each sensor reads driveshaft rpm. However, with a dual range T-case attached to the back of the tranmission, VSS-1 reads transmission output shaft rpm while VSS-2 reads driveshaft rpm. With the T-case in low range, the two sensors will provide different rpm readings.
Based on how the transmission shifted with the T-case in high vs. low range, it appeared that the FSM had the primary and backup sensors switched. To try and sort this out, I ran some tests:
Test 1 – I disconnected the sensor on the speedometer gear (VSS-2). As predicted, the transmission shifted exactly the same as it did before I disconnected the sensor, both in high and low ranges. With the T-case in low range, the shifts occurred at about half the speed that they occurred in high range which is what you would expect with a 2:1 low range. Interestingly, the TCM produced no error codes with the sensor disconnected. As expected, the speedometer quit working.
Test 2 - I reconnected the speedometer sensor and disconnected the sensor by the park gear (VSS-1). The transmission continued to shift, however, now it would shift based entirely on speed regardless of the range the T-case was in. This would indicate to me that the TCM used the speedometer sensor as a fallback, not as the primary. Still no error code.
Test 3 – I disconnected both sensors. Truck would go forward and backward but would never shift out of 1st gear. Still no error codes.
Based on these tests, I concluded that definitely the FSM has the primary and backup sensors labeled bass ackwards: the primary speed sensor is the one next to the park gear (VSS-1) and the fallback sensor is the one driven off the speedometer gear (VSS-2).
Well, that was fun! So what’s next? I suppose, fix the tach. Maybe a few more test runs before the snow comes. Maybe some tweeks to the IP power screw.
Based on the boost and egt reading, I should have some latitude here. Maybe a look at pre vs. post turbo egts. After all, I went to some trouble to install both thermocouples and would hate to have all that effort to go to waste.
I wanted to do some more testing of the hybrid AW450/A440F transmission in the NPR test mule before committing to yanking the 3FE out of the FJ62. Besides, it’s kinda fun playing with the diesel!
What I discovered the last time was that it was difficult trying to read all the gauges and remember the readings while navigating the pot holes on my “test track” so this time I mounted a video camera to record the gauge readings (Photo 1). Not the best setup as everything shakes and vibrates, often blurring the image. But, better than nothing. Photo 2 shows my final instrumentation package. The digital meter shows pre-turbo egts, two of the pressure gauges read pre and post turbo exhaust back pressure, and the third shows boost. The little thingy to the left of the egt display indicates which solenoids are being activated by the TCM. 1 is Shift Solenoid 1, 2 is Shift Solenoid 2, LU is the torque converter lockup solenoid, and T is the Shift Timing solenoid. I haven’t quite figured out exactly how the shift timing solenoid works yet but it does flash on and off with each shift. Above, on top of the dash, is an FJ62 tach that has been a bit flaky recently. As I rev the engine, it will follow the rpm until around 2,500 rpm, then it drops back to zero so I really don’t know what rpms I was achieving during the tests.
First, I wanted to see how the transmission shifted and whether I could get TC lockup. After warming up the truck and transmission, I made several runs with the T-case in high. Reviewing the videos, showed lockup in 3rd & OD. I tried the test again w/ trans in 2nd gear. Got lockup also. As it was difficult to achieve any speed due to the rough condition of my test road, I repeated the tests with the T-case in low. Here, even in D, I could clearly see lockup occurring in 2nd, 3rd, and OD. The TCM would always unlock the torque converter prior to shifting. With the T-case in low, shifts are a bit abrupt. With the T-case in high, the shifts are very nice and the TCM nicely matches the shift points to the torque characteristics of the 4HE1.
Next, I wanted to see what kind of boost and EGT’s I was achieving. I would run at full throttle, using the brakes to put additional load on the engine. With the T-case in high and the transmission in 2nd, I only ran wide open for 15 to 20 seconds. Boost topped out at 12 psi with max egt of 950*F. Pre-turbo exhaust back pressure reached 20 psi. Next, I clamped off the pressure tube to the wastegate actuator (Photo 3) and reran the same test. This effectively disabled the wastegate. Boost topped out at around 20 psi but max egt dropped to 875*F while exhaust back pressure reached 30 psi. I never did get any reading on the post turbo exhaust backpressure gauge.
In retrospect, clamping off the pressure tube to the wastegate actuator may not have completely disabled the wastegate. Next time, I’ll clamp the rod from the actuator so the wastegate cannot open because of exhaust back pressure.
Finally, I wanted to clear up the confusion regarding the TCM speed sensors. There are two sensors that feed speed information to the TCM, a primary and a backup sensor. According to the FSM, the primary sensor is VSS-2 and is the one attached to the speedometer gear and the backup sensor is VSS-1, which is only used if the primary fails, and is the sensor adjacent to the park gear. In the standard setup in an NPR truck, it really wouldn’t make any difference as each sensor reads driveshaft rpm. However, with a dual range T-case attached to the back of the tranmission, VSS-1 reads transmission output shaft rpm while VSS-2 reads driveshaft rpm. With the T-case in low range, the two sensors will provide different rpm readings.
Based on how the transmission shifted with the T-case in high vs. low range, it appeared that the FSM had the primary and backup sensors switched. To try and sort this out, I ran some tests:
Test 1 – I disconnected the sensor on the speedometer gear (VSS-2). As predicted, the transmission shifted exactly the same as it did before I disconnected the sensor, both in high and low ranges. With the T-case in low range, the shifts occurred at about half the speed that they occurred in high range which is what you would expect with a 2:1 low range. Interestingly, the TCM produced no error codes with the sensor disconnected. As expected, the speedometer quit working.
Test 2 - I reconnected the speedometer sensor and disconnected the sensor by the park gear (VSS-1). The transmission continued to shift, however, now it would shift based entirely on speed regardless of the range the T-case was in. This would indicate to me that the TCM used the speedometer sensor as a fallback, not as the primary. Still no error code.
Test 3 – I disconnected both sensors. Truck would go forward and backward but would never shift out of 1st gear. Still no error codes.
Based on these tests, I concluded that definitely the FSM has the primary and backup sensors labeled bass ackwards: the primary speed sensor is the one next to the park gear (VSS-1) and the fallback sensor is the one driven off the speedometer gear (VSS-2).
Well, that was fun! So what’s next? I suppose, fix the tach. Maybe a few more test runs before the snow comes. Maybe some tweeks to the IP power screw.
Based on the boost and egt reading, I should have some latitude here. Maybe a look at pre vs. post turbo egts. After all, I went to some trouble to install both thermocouples and would hate to have all that effort to go to waste.
- Thread starter
- #576
Got the tach fixed. It turned out that the notches in the flywheel that I cut were too narrow so, at higher rpm, the pulse that was produced by the abs sensor was too short and was being filtered out by the tach. It was easier to change some capacitors in the tach than pull the transmission to widen the notches. I'll modify the flywheel later.
With a working tach, I can see that the IP governor limits rpm to about 3300. Seems low and maybe I'll bump it up later.
I turned the IP fuel screw one turn and was able to get the egt up to 1010*F with absolutely no smoke. This was with the stock 12 psi boost. I'm having a hard time loading the engine enough so that it isn't rpm limited. I've been riding the brakes to try and put more load on the engine but with such a light rear end, the duallies just spin in place.
I clamped off the pressure tube to the waste gate actuator to see what the max boost I was able to get with the cranked up fuel screw. Unfortunately, at about 25 psi the hose blew off the turbo.
It's time to quit playing with the NPR and yank the 3FE.
With a working tach, I can see that the IP governor limits rpm to about 3300. Seems low and maybe I'll bump it up later.
I turned the IP fuel screw one turn and was able to get the egt up to 1010*F with absolutely no smoke. This was with the stock 12 psi boost. I'm having a hard time loading the engine enough so that it isn't rpm limited. I've been riding the brakes to try and put more load on the engine but with such a light rear end, the duallies just spin in place.
I clamped off the pressure tube to the waste gate actuator to see what the max boost I was able to get with the cranked up fuel screw. Unfortunately, at about 25 psi the hose blew off the turbo.
It's time to quit playing with the NPR and yank the 3FE.
Astr,
Glad to see you are finally ready to pull the trigger on this project!
Also, could you detail how and what capacitors you changed in the tach? I milled my grooves in the harmonic balancer at 1/4" width and it seems to have the same issue your's did. Mine runs pretty accurate up to about 2000rpm and then becomes unstable and bounces around. It also is affected by the directional when I turn that on, it pulses with the blinker and is really annoying, although this may be unrelated. Any info on the tach rewire would be very much appreciated.
On another note, I wanted to let you know that your progress with tranny adaptation of the A450 inspired me to put an auto in my 60 mated to my 4BD1T. I adapted an A440F to the bellhousing of a Jatco JR403E and have been driving it for a couple of weeks now and it works great. I am going to post up a thread here in a couple of days to document it for others looking for automatic tranny options for the Isuzu diesels. Thanks for the inspiration!
Don
Glad to see you are finally ready to pull the trigger on this project!
Also, could you detail how and what capacitors you changed in the tach? I milled my grooves in the harmonic balancer at 1/4" width and it seems to have the same issue your's did. Mine runs pretty accurate up to about 2000rpm and then becomes unstable and bounces around. It also is affected by the directional when I turn that on, it pulses with the blinker and is really annoying, although this may be unrelated. Any info on the tach rewire would be very much appreciated.
On another note, I wanted to let you know that your progress with tranny adaptation of the A450 inspired me to put an auto in my 60 mated to my 4BD1T. I adapted an A440F to the bellhousing of a Jatco JR403E and have been driving it for a couple of weeks now and it works great. I am going to post up a thread here in a couple of days to document it for others looking for automatic tranny options for the Isuzu diesels. Thanks for the inspiration!
Don
- Thread starter
- #579
I plan on doing that. I will update the original thread https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/337036-adapting-oem-tach-diesel.html with the info. In researching my solution, I came across another very interesting approach that is very much applicable to FJ swaps.
On another note, I wanted to let you know that your progress with tranny adaptation of the A450 inspired me to put an auto in my 60 mated to my 4BD1T. I adapted an A440F to the bellhousing of a Jatco JR403E and have been driving it for a couple of weeks now and it works great. I am going to post up a thread here in a couple of days to document it for others looking for automatic tranny options for the Isuzu diesels. Thanks for the inspiration!
Don
That is great approach! As there seems to be an abundance of JR403E bellhousings, your approach will provide a very slick solution for those who want to run a stock automatic behind the 4BD1/2 diesels. Also, the JR403E was used behind some earlier Mitsubishi diesels and possibly other cab forward trucks so you could be opening a whole new set of swap possibilities.
Agreed! I have a very similar adaptor between my Nissan VH45DE bellhousing an a GM TH400 transmission.
I would be curious to see one of these plates to mate this bell (or a Aisin Bell) to a NV4500.
