Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62

[astr]

Just an observation and I have never seen the 6HK1 engine in person, but it looks like the spacing of 2 of the bolts (at angle) on the air pump and two studs on the starter are about the same distance apart?

The housing looks about the same thickness and maybe an adapter could be made? It would raise the starter up, but, possible turbo/exhaust clearance issues.

Just an idea. Carry on with your adventures...

Doug

The problem is that the pump opening goes into the gear train cavity and is lubricated by engine oil whereas the starter opening bypasses and is sealed from the gear train cavity and provided access to the ring gear on the flywheel.

I've though about trying to create a starter to engage with the gear that normally drives the P/S pump. This gear turns at crankshaft speed and is relatively small in diameter as compared to the starter ring gear so some sort of additional reduction would have to be provided. Another problem that exists is that the starter located in the P/S pump location would have to be quite short otherwise it would conflict with the turbo and down pipe.

 

[doug720]

Ah...Forgot all the timing is on the rear of these engines...DOH!

 

[astr]

An idea but remember the starter drives the flywheel. The pump in the above picture is driven by the timing gears (not enough reduction for the starter).

-Phil

I wasn't thinking of the P/S location for the starter but rather wondering if the thing that was mounted there was a compressor that could be use for on-board air? It was just a thought.

Today, I was really hoping to put some time into my swap project. Instead, I've got to replace the radiator on my wife's Tracker. The plastic tank on top developed a crack. I'm definitely going to try and use the all-metal radiator on my FJ62. If the tanks cracks, it can be soldered. Some say that a plastic tank can be fixed with JB Weld but I'm skeptical! I suppose I could try it on the Tracker as a test. But if the test fails, it will fail at the most inappropriate time and far away from home and tools.

EDIT: I had contemplated using the Isuzu radiator as all the connections are in the right places but the Isuzu radiator has plastic tanks.

 

[Slynax]

Motor Wattage

Sorry to back track so far, but felt i really should clear something up for you all which might make it a bit easier to find alternative starters...

Another thing to think about along the 12/24 switch setup, since this starter is 4kw at 24 volt (I think the stock 12 volt is 3kw or 3.5kw) it should be pulling 2kw at 12 volt. It might feel a little weak when compared to the stock 12 volt starter, but if you're in warm weather all the time I'm sure that would work just fine. I would never trust it up in the northeast, but in the end some of this work to be done needs to be justified by the needs of the individual.

Also, (on yet another tangent) doesn't it seem like it shouldn't be all that much work to just build the starter 12 volt once you have the smaller offset unit in hand? The photo astr posted makes it look like it would be relatively simple. It seems like a straight up swap of the solenoid and motor.

You're almost right... but, due to power(watts/kW) being a result of volts x amps, the power 'consumed' by a circuit will stay the same regardless of what voltage is applied. Therefore, if you apply 12V to a 24V motor, rather than consuming less power it will simply draw roughly double the current.

So, if you did have to use a 24V starter and it is around 4kW (which should pull around 170A) then it should still only pull about 340A on a 12V supply. And by the sound of it, if you're running 2 batteries anyway, the current that they can deliver should be more than enough to do the job as long as the wiring is big enough and the connections at all terminals are in good condition etc. Just make sure both batteries are starting batteries with the highest possible CCA you can get your hands on.

Something to keep in mind when worrying about the durability of the motor itself is that 3 phase electric motors wills pull up to 7 times their running current on start up. And i know they're different types of motors but they are still similar enough.

Just in case anyone has any doubts about this info, i am a qualified electrician so everything here should be pretty accurate. If there's any arguments otherwise i would still appreciate being told if i'm wrong though lol

Absolutely great thread by the way. I hope this helps everyone on their way, cos i can't wait to see the end results of some of these swaps.

Cheers

 

[astr]

Sorry to back track so far, but felt i really should clear something up for you all which might make it a bit easier to find alternative starters...



You're almost right... but, due to power(watts/kW) being a result of volts x amps, the power 'consumed' by a circuit will stay the same regardless of what voltage is applied. Therefore, if you apply 12V to a 24V motor, rather than consuming less power it will simply draw roughly double the current...

Cheers

I would agree but your statement needs some clarification. When you switch voltages, the power consumed will only remain the same if you also change the characteristics of the motor. The current drawn by the motor is related to the resistance of the motor (R) which is a characteristic of that motor. The current drawn by the motor (I) = E (voltage)/ R. If you take a 24 volt motor and try to run it on 12 volts, the resistance of the motor (R) doesn't change so, applying the formula above, the current (I) will be cut in half. Also, as you stated, power (W) = Volts (E) x Amps (I). So running a 24 volt motor on 12 volts will result is half the voltage and half the amps therefore the power consumed ( and power produced) will be one quarter. So running a 4KW 24 volt motor on 12 volts will result in 1KW.

I suspect you are looking at the situation from large AC motor standpoint where a motor can be rewired internally to run on 240 or 480 volts. Rewiring the motor CHANGES THE CHARACTERISTICS of the motor. This option is not available on automotive motors unless you have the whole motor rewound.

The bottom line is that a 4 KW 24 volt starterrunning on 24 volts will draw 167 amps and a 4 KW 12 volt starter running on 12 volts will draw 333 amps but a 24 volt starter running on 12 volts will only draw 83 amps and will produce the equivalent power of a 1 KW starter.

EDIT: Of course the reciprocal of this is true - run a 12 volt starter on 24 volts and you will consume four times the KW and presumably get four times the power (at least until the smoke starts )

 

[Nexxussian]

Of course the reciprocal of this is true - run a 12 volt starter on 24 volts and you will consume four times the KW and presumably get four times the power (at least until the smoke starts )

It likely would 't stop either as the contacts in whatever 12V solenoid you may be running will likely weld themselves together (maybe not the very first time, but likely soon).

Any time I've done the 6->12V trick I've had to change the solenoid to a 12V HD unit (whatever the largest capacity solenoid that I can physically screw to the starter, or use a Ford type and hot wire it).

 

[Dougal]

It likely would 't stop either as the contacts in whatever 12V solenoid you may be running will likely weld themselves together (maybe not the very first time, but likely soon).

Any time I've done the 6->12V trick I've had to change the solenoid to a 12V HD unit (whatever the largest capacity solenoid that I can physically screw to the starter, or use a Ford type and hot wire it).

My Isuzu runs 24v into a 12v starter. It's ugly and pulls some horrendous amps (over 500 amps if things are bad, around 330 amps if things are good). Surprisingly it's lasted a long time doing this. Testament to Hitachi's starters I suppose.

If it gives me the finger I'll either get it rewound as a 24v starter or try to find a 24v that will fit. But until then.........


The 12v starter is off a smaller Isuzu (4BC2), I used to be able to start the vehicle off one battery, but since a rebuild back in 05 the compression is too high and 12v won't do it.

 

[Nexxussian]

Sounds like they left alot of extra capacity there for service life.

Or they figured it wasn't worth designing a lighter duty set of contacts.

Either way, it's the solenoid that usually gives me greif, unless I try for some marathon cranking effort, but I try and avoid those regardless.

 

[Nexxussian]

I just thought of something after posting that (naturally ).

The 6V starters I've run on 12V were old enough they had copper wound electromagnets for the pole shoes (aka "stationary windings").

All this stuff is new enough it likely is using permanent magnets for the stationary field, so the only windings (and source for a current draw) are in the armature.

The permanent magnet equipped starters use vastly lower amounts of current for a given amount of output power.

The most extreme example of that, in the automotive arena, that I know of was when Ford switched from their old iron case starters to the newer PM units. I had one that used to draw nearly 300 Amps, swap to the new PM unit, and it uses less than 100, on the same engine (gasser).

 

[serenity]

Also, as you stated, power (W) = Volts (E) x Amps (I). So running a 24 volt motor on 12 volts will result is half the voltage and half the amps therefore the power consumed ( and power produced) will be one quarter. So running a 4KW 24 volt motor on 12 volts will result in 1KW.

Hey? If watts (W) is your constant and you halve your volts (E) then your amps (I) will have to double for (W) to stay the same.

I'm not gonna get into windings and resistance though. I'll leave that to electricians.

Cool build though, I'm thoroughly impressed!

 

[astr]

Hey? If watts (W) is your constant and you halve your volts (E) then your amps (I) will have to double for (W) to stay the same. I'm not gonna get into windings and resistance though. I'll leave that to electricians. Cool build though, I'm thoroughly impressed!

Thanks for the complement. I only wish I could find more time to devote to moving the build forward.

Power (W) is not a physical characteristic of the device so will not be the constant for a specific device, resistance (R) is. However, if you operate the device at the voltage it was designed to operate at, it will draw the intended current and will dissipate the design watts. If you operate a device at a different voltage (E) than for which it was designed for, then you have to recalculate the current (I) that will pass through it and the wattage dissipated will change accordingly.

Using a water pipe analogy, the pipe diameter and length are physical characteristics of the pipe (resistance - R). The water flow through the pipe (amps - I) will be dependent on the pressure differential from one end of the pipe to the other (voltage - E). Change the pressure and the flow will change.

We probably should defer the discussion of Ohm's law to the chat section.

 

[AppleTech]

Since the Isuzu-knowlegeable are watching this thread... Do you know if the bigger trucks in the US (FRR/FSR) are 24v or 12v? Considering putting a 6BD1t into an early 80s F250

 

[SuperHatch]

Well, according to this:

http://www.cableprice.co.nz/downloads/FRR600.pdf

A new FRR is 24V, however according to this:

DB Electrical - NEW STARTER ISUZU EVR FSR FTR FVR NPR NRR TRUCK 86-97 190-803 SND0131

The older 6BD1/6BG1/and 4BD1 FSR, FRR, and NPR trucks all use the same starter... so all 12V?

 

[Nexxussian]

All the N and F series trucks I've seen are 12V, they are older, a few had the 6BD1T.

That's not definitive by any means, but I hope it helps.

 

[AppleTech]

All the N and F series trucks I've seen are 12V, they are older, a few had the 6BD1T.

That's not definitive by any means, but I hope it helps.

That's all I was curious about - all this 24v starter talk got me nervous

-Phil

 

[Dougal]

Well, according to this:

http://www.cableprice.co.nz/downloads/FRR600.pdf

A new FRR is 24V, however according to this:

DB Electrical - NEW STARTER ISUZU EVR FSR FTR FVR NPR NRR TRUCK 86-97 190-803 SND0131

The older 6BD1/6BG1/and 4BD1 FSR, FRR, and NPR trucks all use the same starter... so all 12V?

But that's a link to a New Zealand Isuzu dealer. In NZ all the NPR's are 24v, right down to the old 3.3 litre 4BC2.

 

[SuperHatch]

But that's a link to a New Zealand Isuzu dealer. In NZ all the NPR's are 24v, right down to the old 3.3 litre 4BC2.

Sorry bout that, there was no way I would have known that.

 

[SerpentHunter]

Great thread and info, what's the latest and greatest with the starter ideas?

 

[astr]

Great thread and info, what's the latest and greatest with the starter ideas?

First, I'm going to take the hybrid tranny for a drive in the Isuzu NPR. To do so, I've got to scrap out two vehicles that are located between the NPR and the shop door. I've run it up on jack stands but I don't consider that a comprehensive test.

If the road tests are successful, I'll pull the 3FE and check out exactly how much the Isuzu starter will interfere with the FJ62's sheet metal. I'd like to use the stock starter location if possible.

Assuming that the stock starter location can't be made to work, I will try the front-mounted starter setup that I described earlier in this thread.

I did make some misc. progress: I installed an indicator to monitor the state of the transmission solenoids. (Photo below) This will tell me which gear the TCM is commanding and whether the torque converter is locked up. I also threw in a LED to monitor the timing solenoid. I'm not sure what it is supposed to do but now I'll know when it's energized

 

[Nexxussian]

Sweetness.

I like the indicator too, should be interesting to see what it "tells" you.