How come I have to blip the throttle to get my 3b to run when cold? (1 Viewer)

[Reinhardtius]

After watching your video, I dont think there is anything wrong except your starting procedure. It doesn't hurt the starter to let it run a second after it starts. Try turning the idle up to 1000+, that's what its for.

Sorry, not sure which video you’ve watched. The current state of 15+ cranks is not normal for a starting procedure. The truck used to and should start with just 3-5. Something else is the matter.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Aaah yes, I forgot the second round of videos. Have you ascertained there is fuel at the injectors?

 

[Reinhardtius]

Aaah yes, I forgot the second round of videos. Have you ascertained there is fuel at the injectors?

I would assume so? It runs perfectly fine once I get past the cold start trouble.

In any case it’s with the mechanic now. Let’s see what they have to say

 

[roscoFJ73]

I would assume so? It runs perfectly fine once I get past the cold start trouble.

They often do this. Overnight the fuel syphons the fuel out of the pump. Once it has started the air will clear. They often let air in around the primer pump.

 

[brownbear]

my 3B needs lots of glow to get it going in colder temps. I could not do this without a manual set up.

I also need to hold the starter a bit once it's going for few more seconds to ensure it keeps running. I also need to re-glow once it fires up, I just don't glow and crank at the same time.

I found Toyota's from these era's are actually so prone to rust that I don't feel they should be winter vehicles, especially how rare they are becoming. My 60 no longer goes out in winter... So my days of really cold starting it are over.

 

[roscoFJ73]

I found Toyota's from these era's are actually so prone to rust that I don't feel they should be winter vehicles, especially how rare they are becoming.

Are they using salt on the roads up your way BB? IMO landcruisers problem is they dont dry out quickly and they sit there for months in cold climates with a layer of moisture inside them.
In warmer climes, even in winter, you can get a few days of sun and in that period I usually leave my windows open all day so dry air can circulate inside the doors and body. If you leave the landcruiser windows up on a warm day after its been raining, when you open the doors, you can feel the humidity inside the vehicle.

 

[Reinhardtius]

Update from mechanic: glow system operating normally. Mechanic now looking into EDIC and fuel system. I’ve mentioned all of your suggestions for places where it’s possible for air to get in.

The truck sleeps in the heated shop tonight to ensure it’s not a “when cold” issue.

 

[duncanrm]

Update from mechanic: glow system operating normally. Mechanic now looking into EDIC and fuel system.

Is this guy a diesel specialist?

Anyhow.. Someone has previously mentioned that you can 100% rule out any EDIC issue by simply popping the EDIC arm off at the pump. The Fuel Control Lever defaults to the RUN position, even in cold climates this is adequate to start the engine - whilst there is an OVERFUEL position, its not required. To stop the engine after this, manually push the Fuel Control Lever on the pump towards the radiator.

The Lift Pump (or "Fuel Feed Pump" as Toyota call it) has a non return valve in it.. you could determine if this is causing issues by cracking the bleeder nozzle on your fuel filter and giving the primer pump a few taps in the morning, if you get an immediate good solid squirt of diesel out, you're not losing prime.

How exactly has your mechanic ruled out the Glow System? The quick and dirty method to determine glows are actually glowing is by observing voltage drop during the glow operation. Ideally, a DC current clamp meter on the supply to the glow rail should be used to actually assess how much current is being used. If there's any doubt the glows should be removed and bench tested.

 

[Reinhardtius]

Is this guy a diesel specialist?

Anyhow.. Someone has previously mentioned that you can 100% rule out any EDIC issue by simply popping the EDIC arm off at the pump. The Fuel Control Lever defaults to the RUN position, even in cold climates this is adequate to start the engine - whilst there is an OVERFUEL position, its not required. To stop the engine after this, manually push the Fuel Control Lever on the pump towards the radiator.

The Lift Pump (or "Fuel Feed Pump" as Toyota call it) has a non return valve in it.. you could determine if this is causing issues by cracking the bleeder nozzle on your fuel filter and giving the primer pump a few taps in the morning, if you get an immediate good solid squirt of diesel out, you're not losing prime.

How exactly has your mechanic ruled out the Glow System? The quick and dirty method to determine glows are actually glowing is by observing voltage drop during the glow operation. Ideally, a DC current clamp meter on the supply to the glow rail should be used to actually assess how much current is being used. If there's any doubt the glows should be removed and bench tested.

Not a diesel specialist but has been working on foreign cars in his shop for 40 years. He seems like he knows what he’s doing and hasn’t run my wallet dry (he played with it for 1.5hrs or so)

@duncanrm can you (or anyone) please watch the videos in this thread of me showing the EDIC in action?

I think they illustrate that the EDIC is working normally, but you seem to know how they should function, so please take a look. If you’re not convinced, I’ll tell him to pop off that rod.

Re: lift pump, I popped the plunger and cracked the bleeder valve after the truck sat overnight and it shot out diesel right away. Ugh.

Re: glow diagnosis, he said he put a test light to it, and then flipped one of the plugs on the bus bar and it light right up. Not exactly sure how he did that / what exactly he meant. Sounds to me like the glow timer and relay are working if one plug went red...

Does his glow diagnosis sound good enough?


Here are the videos:
Cold

Warm

 

[Reinhardtius]

my 3B needs lots of glow to get it going in colder temps. I could not do this without a manual set up.

I also need to hold the starter a bit once it's going for few more seconds to ensure it keeps running. I also need to re-glow once it fires up, I just don't glow and crank at the same time.

I found Toyota's from these era's are actually so prone to rust that I don't feel they should be winter vehicles, especially how rare they are becoming. My 60 no longer goes out in winter... So my days of really cold starting it are over.

I hear ya. Good advice and logic.

Mine also doesn’t get driven in winter with the snow. I do want all of the systems on the truck operating. It has 70,000km and is otherwise perfect. Ugh.

 

[duncanrm]

I've now watched the Cold Start video.

The EDIC is doing exactly what its meant to:

1. It's pulling the Fuel Control Lever into the OVERFUEL position whilst cranking
2. Then relaxing to the RUN position when cranking stops
3. Then pushing the lever to STOP after it failed to see the engine come up to speed (via the oil pressure switch) - indicating you just stopped cranking, but didnt switch the ignition off.

There is no EDIC or Fuel Control Relay issue causing your cold start problems based on that video.

A simple test lamp on the Glow Rail Bus Bar is not really a sufficient test, seeing one glow plug going red if well earthed is a better test as he has done.. but I'd really want to determine:

1. The voltage being applied
2. Confirmation of the Glow Plug voltage
3. Resistance of each plug to earth with the glow rail removed
4. Current Draw during the actual glow cycle (using a DC Clamp Meter)

Given you've clearly not lost prime (you cracked the bleed nipple and had pressurised diesel expelled) then there's really two issues that I'd consider:

1. Your glow operation is just not working correctly with any of:
   • Wrong plugs
   • Faulty plugs
   • Insufficient current available to the glow operation
   • Not glowing long enough
   • Glow rail is earthing out (look at the stacked adaptors on the inlet manifold whilst glowing, there are insulating washers that do fail. You can see often see glowing red if they have failed)
2. You have poor compression

The engine does sound healthy, and its low kilometres.. I'm strongly suspicious of an impaired glow system.

With regards to the Warm video..

Are you stopping the engine, or is it stopping itself? If its stopping itself, you need to confirm you have oil pressure, because that behaviour is very much indicative of the EDIC low oil pressure cutoff activating. There is an oil pressure switch that provides an earth with no oil pressure that is used to cutoff the engine. If your factory dash Oil Pressure Gauge is showing pressure then its entirely possible your oil pressure switch has failed - there are two seperate sensors:

1. An Oil Pressure SWITCH for the EDIC
2. An Oil Pressure SENDER for the Dash Gauge

Its unusual for a B or H engine not to have oil pressure after that length of time I saw it running (with multiple starts). If you have a mechanical pressure test gauge, thats always a good thing to start with to really get some empirical measurements on oil pressure at start, at idle, and at load.


edit: OK I just re-read some older posts you made and see you have no dash gauge for oil pressure.. this is pointing increasingly to a lack of oil pressure, you need to get a test gauge on it before anything else. How long did you leave the oil pan empty for when you changed the oil? I've never seen a H/B engine lose oil pump prime during a change.. but I know its a possibility on some other engines.. the photos show quite corroded switch and sender.. I'd be replacing them anyway. If you changed filter brand/oil I'd go back to the original. For me, thats OEM or Terrain Tamer Filters and Castrol RX Super (15W/40 mineral), my 2H engines are fine even below zero deg (C) with that oil.

I think the thread already covers all possibilities, sorry if I've repeated stuff other people and yourself have already said.

 

[Reinhardtius]

I've now watched the Cold Start video.

The EDIC is doing exactly what its meant to:

1. It's pulling the Fuel Control Lever into the OVERFUEL position whilst cranking
2. Then relaxing to the RUN position when cranking stops
3. Then pushing the lever to STOP after it failed to see the engine come up to speed (via the oil pressure switch) - indicating you just stopped cranking, but didnt switch the ignition off.

There is no EDIC or Fuel Control Relay issue causing your cold start problems based on that video.

A simple test lamp on the Glow Rail Bus Bar is not really a sufficient test, seeing one glow plug going red if well earthed is a better test as he has done.. but I'd really want to determine:

1. The voltage being applied
2. Confirmation of the Glow Plug voltage
3. Resistance of each plug to earth with the glow rail removed
4. Current Draw during the actual glow cycle (using a DC Clamp Meter)

Given you've clearly not lost prime (you cracked the bleed nipple and had pressurised diesel expelled) then there's really two issues that I'd consider:

1. Your glow operation is just not working correctly with any of:
   • Wrong plugs
   • Faulty plugs
   • Insufficient current available to the glow operation
   • Not glowing long enough
   • Glow rail is earthing out (look at the stacked adaptors on the inlet manifold whilst glowing, there are insulating washers that do fail. You can see often see glowing red if they have failed)
2. You have poor compression

The engine does sound healthy, and its low kilometres.. I'm strongly suspicious of an impaired glow system.

Thanks for the thorough reply. Much appreciated.

I am also leaning this way, too... Plugs are not faulty (I tested their resistance before going in), they are the exact plugs required direct from Toyota, the batteries are brand new (should not be a current issue then right?), and I don't see any glowing red washers...

Any other hunches?

With regards to the Warm video..

Are you stopping the engine, or is it stopping itself?

I am stopping it by turning the key to the off position.

If its stopping itself, you need to confirm you have oil pressure, because that behaviour is very much indicative of the EDIC low oil pressure cutoff activating. There is an oil pressure switch that provides an earth with no oil pressure that is used to cutoff the engine. If your factory dash Oil Pressure Gauge is showing pressure then its entirely possible your oil pressure switch has failed - there are two seperate sensors:

1. An Oil Pressure SWITCH for the EDIC
2. An Oil Pressure SENDER for the Dash Gauge

Its unusual for a B or H engine not to have oil pressure after that length of time I saw it running (with multiple starts). If you have a mechanical pressure test gauge, thats always a good thing to start with to really get some empirical measurements on oil pressure at start, at idle, and at load.

I can ask the mechanic to consider an oil pressure test, but would that be necessary if the engine runs great once it's warm? It goes around town great and on the highway...

edit: OK I just re-read some older posts you made and see you have no dash gauge for oil pressure.. this is pointing increasingly to a lack of oil pressure, you need to get a test gauge on it before anything else. How long did you leave the oil pan empty for when you changed the oil?

Not long, half a day. It has started up since then.

I've never seen a H/B engine lose oil pump prime during a change.. but I know its a possibility on some other engines.. the photos show quite corroded switch and sender.. I'd be replacing them anyway. If you changed filter brand/oil I'd go back to the original. For me, thats OEM or Terrain Tamer Filters and Castrol RX Super (15W/40 mineral), my 2H engines are fine even below zero deg (C) with that oil.

I think the thread already covers all possibilities, sorry if I've repeated stuff other people and yourself have already said.

I'm running the original oil and OE filter, so I think I have that covered.

 

[duncanrm]

I am stopping it by turning the key to the off position.

That's great, I was a bit concerned.. honestly though, sort out an Oil Pressure Gauge on your dash somewhere as a priority. Its unlikely you have an oil pressure problem though

Glow voltage on the rail during the glow operation (and measured at the start, partway in and 'end' of the operation would also be useful) and actual glow current (DC Clamp Meter) would tell a lot. A poor connector, poor engine earths, or something earthing out in the glow circuit can affect the actual current being made available for consumption by the plugs.

Whilst the glowplugs may have come from Toyota, the mess of glow systems, PO modifications, 12V vs 24V, etc mean its can be a bit of an effort to select a plug thats appropriate. A check back through the thread shows a plug suitable for your 24V vehicle. Confirmation of voltage at rail will be interesting.

 

[Reinhardtius]

What the hell, guys...

Mechanic tells me that he started it up this morning in the shop (60°F inside) and it started right up. So, does that mean that it's not a fuel system (air leak) or oil pressure problem?

THEN, he set it outside for 5 hours, and the block read 20°F on the infrared thermometer. He put the key in and turned, the glow light came on, and he turned the key, and it started right up.

He also told me about his glow system testing procedure. He checked voltage. He said that the glow system shows about 24 volts for 1-2 seconds, and then it drops to 14 volts once the truck is started. That kind of voltage sounds like a normally operating Superglow system, right?

If the engine starts inside and outside without a problem for him, but he can't tell me what was wrong or what he fixed, I am going to feel pretty confused.

 

[duncanrm]

If the engine starts inside and outside without a problem for him, but he can't tell me what was wrong or what he fixed, I am going to feel pretty confused.

Yeah bit odd.. get it home, get the oil pressure gauge sorted and see how your own experience is over the next few weeks, sounds like the glow system is working well and you have no serious issues. All good news. I totally agree with you though, its frustrating not having a definitive explanation for what you've seen and what is shown on the videos - and these things never magically fix themselves. I suspect you'll be puzzling over this again in the future.

Cool ute though, we never saw that combination in Australia.

 

[jim land]

Owner manual said to hold the accelerator pedal to the floor for the starting procedure , i found it work realy well

Did you or your mechanic try this?

 

[Reinhardtius]

It sat outside all afternoon and all night (18 hrs) and it’s 19 Deg F outside. The mechanic said it started right up this morning. I’m going to go pay my bill and make good on my bet to him that it wouldn’t start.

 

[Reinhardtius]

Well, my truck appears to be fixed. I let the truck sit in the freezing cold for two days without touching it. I went out this morning, glowed it twice, and it started right up (less than 3 cranks). Yay. Sort of.

I am fairly certain that whatever was wrong had to do with the glow system and nothing to do with the EDIC or oil pressure (which were the two prevailing competing hypotheses in this thread). The reason I think it was the glow system was because the mechanic only touched starting system components. Specifically, he fiddled with the glow plug busbar, flipping one of the glow plugs around and grounding it so as to observe the glow system in operation. I know that the glow system is definitely operating differently (i.e. correctly) because the glow light on the dash is illuminated for 3-5 seconds, as opposed to before, when it would illuminate for a second before shutting off. That to me signals that the timer is working, and that the truck starts up more or less immediately is a sign that the glow system is working. If the truck had low oil pressure, the EDIC would not have permitted the engine to start. It's also 28°F (-2°C) this morning. I don't think the engine would start without the glow system working on a morning like today.

I am both very pleased and very dissatisfied that I don't know what exactly was fixed. What do you think could have set itself right in the process of diagnosing?

Loose cable? Sticky relay? Glow plugs not fastened properly? Depleted battery (he did charge them even though they are brand new 3 months ago)? Magic touch?

The mechanic kindly suggested that I don't f*%k with it and leave it be. I'm not going to go in and clean any more grounds, but if it happens again, I want your suggestions to consider as possible causes of the problem. For now, I also count my lucky stars.

 

[roscoFJ73]

I am both very pleased and very dissatisfied that I don't know what exactly was fixed. What do you think could have set itself right in the process of diagnosing?

Loose cable? Sticky relay? Glow plugs not fastened properly? Depleted battery (he did charge them even though they are brand new 3 months ago)? Magic touch?

One thing I noticed from the video of the cold start smoke was that the cylinders seem to be firing unevenly. Its like 2 cyls were still cold and puffing more smoke than the others. Your mechanic may have got the glowplugs on those cyl working.

 

[Reinhardtius]

One thing I noticed from the video of the cold start smoke was that the cylinders seem to be firing unevenly. Its like 2 cyls were still cold and puffing more smoke than the others. Your mechanic may have got the glowplugs on those cyl working.

Good observation. I wonder which ones were misfiring.. In any case, you can see from this video that the glow system is definitely giving the plugs current, unlike the first video, where the light is only on for a moment before shutting off. Whatever he did, it's working exactly as it should.

Anyone else have hunches as to what could have been wrong with the glow system? Does the timer or relay stop and start working when they age? How do these things fail?