Horn wiring Still not working

[Boaf 32]

LC’ers

I am having difficulty getting the Horn to blow from the button. 1972 LC soft top manufactured 10/71.

Work done:

· Correct Period steering wheel installed
· New Horn seat with button contact installed. Ran a new wire through the steering column and rubber, soldered wire to the Contact Ring (See attached). Other end attached to the Relay (where the Green / Red wire would have attach per the diagram).
· Installed new horn relay under the bonnet and grounded the relay to the fender.
· Followed the attached wiring diagram see #7 (Relay) and #29 (Horn Button) from this site: Wiring Diagrams | Vintage Cruiser Co.

What is happening is:

1. The horns both work, jumped them directly from the battery through the Green and White wire
2. Push the horn button and see blue electric spark in the steering wheel (which means there is connectivity). But the horns do not blow.
3. I swapped the Yellow / White wire on the relay with the new wire ran from the steering wheel and re-connected the battery, the horn blows constantly. (Confirms that the wiring to the horns works).

Something tells me the wire that runs through the steering column to the horn should run to something other than the relay. (Maybe directly to the horn fuse, I tried this, and re-connected the Green / Red to the relay, and had no luck.). Hoping my fellow LC’ers can help.

Thanks all,

Boaf

 

[Trollhole]

Should have 12 to the relay at all times. Negative to the other side of the relay coil comes from horn button. Other wire goes to horn. You confirm you have 12v at relay?

 

[Boaf 32]

I will check now...I just did a Light tester, will volt meter and get right back to you.

 

[Boaf 32]

12.85 volts at the relay...

 

[Boaf 32]

Found this post from Coolerman. The steering column is attached to the frame by the support bracket, but should there be another ground somewhere in the steering column? Where would you ground the Shaft? Need some guidance on that, thanks.

Boaf

What many fail to see when working on the horn is this: The steering column SHAFT is what MUST be grounded for the horn to work reliably since the button is attached to the shaft. Grounding the column shell may not work if there is no bearing in the end that is attached to the shaft. Also, if you have a rag joint, and don't have the correct jumper wire installed, you will have issues. On the early trucks with the shaft being part of the steering box, grounding was not an issue.

 

[Jerry D.]

Does this help...

Shown on a Ford, but same idea as Toyota.

Jerry D.

 

[Boaf 32]

Yes it does, will give it a go on Friday or Saturday. Thanks!

 

[Giles]

did you use the old rubber or did you get a new one, i only ask becasue i need one

 

[Boaf 32]

Used the old one. Still fairly solid...Try SOR.com. They may have it. Specter Off-Road, Land Cruiser Parts and Accessories

 

[Boaf 32]

Found this post from Coolerman. The steering column is attached to the frame by the support bracket, but should there be another ground somewhere in the steering column? Where would you ground the Shaft? Need some guidance on that, thanks.

Boaf

What many fail to see when working on the horn is this: The steering column SHAFT is what MUST be grounded for the horn to work reliably since the button is attached to the shaft. Grounding the column shell may not work if there is no bearing in the end that is attached to the shaft. Also, if you have a rag joint, and don't have the correct jumper wire installed, you will have issues. On the early trucks with the shaft being part of the steering box, grounding was not an issue.

Jerry D., Trollhole,

I grounded the nut in the center column to the body and used a screw driver to press the horn contact. I have spark, but no horn. The photo that Jerry sent (thanks) is great but my steering column Rag Joint is not visible, there appears to be a factory case covering it. Still stumped, but certain I need to ground it somewhere. The blinkers do not work either so mayby that will help with the diganosis.

Let me know your thoughts, thanks.

Boaf

 

[honk]

Remember that the horn button is just a switch. It COMPLETES a circuit when you press on it. The column is one side of the circuit and the other side is what?
Not sure of your setup but in general horn buttons get one side through a circuit provided by a turn signal switch. I'm only suggesting that maybe the horn doesn't work because the turn signals don't work.

Over the years I think I've seen more odd solutions to make a horn work than any other kind of electrical device in cars. Plenty of screwy solutions for other things too, but horns win out in my experiences.

(My own '65 cruiser came to me about 15 years ago with a black button on the dashboard that honks the horn. I figure that it's a result of someone's frustrated attempts to get the OEM honker to work. Never needing more frustrations I've left it that way)

 

[honk]

Boaf, you said that there's 12v to one side of your horn relay. Did you ground the other side and the horn honked? If not - bad horn relay?

You said that you have a spark when you grounded the nut to the body? That has to mean that the column has voltage or the place on the body you connected it to does, and I'm not sure that's logical.

 

[Coolerman]

The GR wire that the horn button connects to, works as follows: One side of this wire goes to the Horn relay S terminal (which is connected to one side of the Horn relay coil). The other side of this wire goes though the Column Horn Switch, to the Steering Column Shaft which is grounded through the rag joint via a looped wire as shown above...

The relay B terminal (connected to the OTHER side of the Horn Relay Coil), MUST have +12V on it. When you press the Horn Button you ground the S terminal. This completes the path through the Horn Relay Coil which pulls in and switches +12V to the H terminal on the Horn Relay. This terminal is what the horns connects to. THE HORNS THEMSELVES MUST BE WELL GROUNDED!!!

To test the relay, simply ground the S terminal, and if the relay and horns are good, they will blow. If they do, the problem is in the wiring between the Horn Relay and the column wiring or the rag joint. If they don't verify that you have +12V on the B terminal and that the horns themselves are well grounded. Horns pull a lot of current and require a solid ground.

Hope that clears it up!

 

[Boaf 32]

Coolerman,

Yep it does. I am away for a few days but will continue with me Volt meter. My problem is I cannot confirm the Rag Joint (maybe looking at the wrong spot) has a ground. There is what looks like a steel tube from the factory " cover" from the firewall, up to the horn and out to the PS Steering. Will check this weekend. Just want to pass inspection, and get the horn and blinkers working. Argh!!!

 

[Boaf 32]

Boaf, you said that there's 12v to one side of your horn relay. Did you ground the other side and the horn honked? If not - bad horn relay?

You said that you have a spark when you grounded the nut to the body? That has to mean that the column has voltage or the place on the body you connected it to does, and I'm not sure that's logical.

Yes, I grounded the other side and the horn worked. The relay is brand new (doesn't necessarily mean it works) but this one does.

The horn button does have spark (voltage) so I need to chase down two items sequentially:

1. Make sure the steering column Shaft (and column) itself is grounded somewhere. The Rag joint photo and Coolerman's comment confirm my suspicions. Just need to find the Rag Joint, as mentioned earlier, where you expect the rag to be, there is a factory looking shaft cover "hiding" the joint to even see if it is wired.

2. Understand where the blinkers are failing, it may just need a plug

Coolerman: I replaced the Red / Green wire as it was not even in the steering column, and ran the new wire to the relay (S). If that RG wire also connects the Turn signal in some way, that could be the open circuit. I will com back to both of you with some updates

 

[Boaf 32]

Well still frustrated!!! ARGHHHHH. Grounded the steering column with the same result. Grounded the steering post (Nut attaching to the steering shaft) still same result. Did both at the same time, you know the drill. It is such a simple stupid circuit. Ready to put a crap ass push button horn.

Blinkers are connected, but not working. I will diagnose power to them shortly. What the F am I missing??? is the Red Green required or connected to some other circuit as well? Fn Frustrated as hell!!! There are more important jobs to do than this...

Any help is appreciated. I am attaching some photos of the horn installation... Contact Installed, Horn Seat installed, Back of Steering wheel showing Horn Seat button, and the installed steering wheel and horn (with the button removed) Rubber insulator installed under the spring. Any advice is appreciated, thanks...

A frustrated Boaf.

 

[Boaf 32]

Gents, After my rant, now became determined to work through this issue. I am working forward knowing that there is power to the horn button. I have grounded the column and steering shaft with no luck. I am moving towards the blinkers and flashers.

I removed this pull switch from the dashboard and there are no wires connected to it, yep. I do not even see the wires behind the dashboard. There is a flasher relay (#9 on diagram), removed it and tested the relay continuity between the connectors with a mult-imeter I receive 5.4 on the readout. As for the plug going into the relay, I receive no voltage at all.

SOOOOoooo, the diagram I have attached for the 72 LC shows the flasher switch (#32 on diagram) as "Optional" and with more than two (2) connectors. Mine has 2 connectors only which I do not believe is an issue. Does anyone know where, and what wire the power for the flashers come from? Something tells me it is that Green red wire (which I connected directly to the battery with no luck)

Electronic spaghetti! Thanks for your help.

Boaf

 

[fcgadget]

had the same issue. The steering wheel shaft was not grounded. But it had been until last week....

The rag coupler at the bottom did have continuity through the bronze(?) bolts, but still no shaft ground.

The answer was in the attached picture

 

[Coolerman]

You should NOT have any voltage on the GR wire! This wire GROUNDS when you push the horn button. Do you have the device shown in the pic below installed inside the column? The gizmo is the horn contact insulator bushing and sits on top of the column. It has a wire embedded in it that connects to the GR wire you ran to the horn relay S terminal. When you press the horn button the you are connecting the center contact plate (which is BOLTED to the steering shaft which MUST be grounded) to the horn contact brush which is riding on the horn contact insulator bushing which is attached to the GR wire going to the Horn Relay S terminal.
So... If you unplug the GR wire form the column and ground it the horns will blow right? So the ONLY thing that could possibly be wrong is the column SHAFT is not grounded via the rag joint, or your horn button assembly is not correct. I have a web page that goes into great detail about the exact order the parts have to be installed in. Horn Troubleshooting

Hang in there you will get it to work!

 

[Trollhole]

Where did you get the relay from? If it's a corolla relay it will look identical to the land cruiser relay but the contacts are all backwards.