Headers vs. refreshing the OEM manifold? (2020 Edition) (1 Viewer)

[GeologistFelix]

Short version: I have exhaust leaks, 8 years after replacing my manifold gasket and want the fix to last.

Basic Stats:
- 12/'85 US-market FJ60
- Cheap-as-possible but properly planned desmog, trollhole carb, and recurved OEM dissy, with no plans to move to a place where any of that matters in less than 4 years.
- Replaced the manifold gasket 9 years ago and desmogged 8 years ago, didn't get anything machined, but the manifolds and head measured flat, and it didn't leak until 6 months ago, so?
- Ditched the original heat riser between the intake and exhaust and replaced it with SOR's non-moving spacer plate dealie.
- No signs of cracking on the intake.
- Want to swap the carb for a Holley Sniper TBI setup this fall.

The Issue:
- Bad-enough-to-hear-under-acceleration exhaust leak between one horn and the main exhaust manifold body. Definitely needs the funky spring/ring gasket replaced.
- Shop-vac and soapy water leak test shows definite leaks on the main manifold gasket surface, the other exhaust horn joint, the EGR downpipe plug, and the gasket between the intake and exhaust.
- Had to use all sorts of nonstandard hardware (including one stripped bolt between the intake and the exhaust, which I had to drill out and retap for a bigger bolt). I'd like to replace every bolt and nut from the carb base to the exhaust downpipe.

Here are the three options I'm seeing:
1.) Replace every friggin' piece of the exhaust manifold other than the main body and two horns, get it and the manifold machined flush together, bolt it all up, and hope that does it.
2.) Same as #1, but get a donor manifold set so I'm not without a vehicle for potentially 2-3 weeks if it turns out I have to wait for any parts in the mail once it's taken apart.
3.) Get a header, get it and my intake machined flush together, get a new header-to-tailpipe exhaust welded up by a local shop (probably not a big deal, but I've never dealt with a muffler shop before?).

Can anyone make a strong recommendation for (or against) any of those?

How about a suggested parts list if I refurbish my/an OEM manifold? Bolts/nuts/washers/studs, a bunch of expensive springs for the horn seals, new manifold/EGR downpipe plug/manifold-to-manifold-heat-riser/etc. gaskets, but what else should I replace to save on future headaches?

If a header seems like a good solution, what's actually on the market and good these days? Googling turns up a ton of threads that are 10-15 years out of date, which isn't exactly useful, and I think I'd rather not spend $800+ for the MAF setup, no matter how pretty it is.

 

[Godwin]

Option #4 - 3FE exhaust manifold. Takes a little fabbing and some exhaust work but is another alternative. 3FE exhaust on 2F head

 

[GeologistFelix]

Option #4 - 3FE exhaust manifold. Takes a little fabbing and some exhaust work but is another alternative. 3FE exhaust on 2F head

Ok, that's pretty neat, but that has me wondering:
1.) Wouldn't I need either the whole exhaust system from a 62 or else a whole new manifold-back set welded up at a shop? How is that better than a header?
2.) Is there some secret source for 3FE manifolds I don't know about that makes them cheap and easy to find?

 

[Godwin]

Ok, that's pretty neat, but that has me wondering:
1.) Wouldn't I need either the whole exhaust system from a 62 or else a whole new manifold-back set welded up at a shop? How is that better than a header?
2.) Is there some secret source for 3FE manifolds I don't know about that makes them cheap and easy to find?

I happened to have an extra set of manifolds to use along with the remainder the exhaust. The manifolds are cast iron so will not rust out like a header may do. With some intake massaging they'll mount up on the 2F head. I cut the stock down pipes off and had an exhaust shop build from there.

A source, maybe check with shops that are doing engine swaps. Check classifieds. Car-part.com is another source.

 

[Miloslavich]

Having just gone down this road, and Having been a "the OEM engineers knew what they were doing, and it worked for 30 years, dont fk with it kinda guy" and also a "lets go waayyyyy down the rabbit hole of aftermarket, mod everything" kind of guy in my past, and having done this twice now in the past, (trial and error method) I find myself in the middle on issues like this, slight upgrades on certain pieces of the manifold, but keep it mostly original, the idea was to make the best possible manifold I could. So being in similar shoes to you on what to do there, I sourced an excellent stock manifold, replaced every bit of hardware on it with @ToyotaMatt 's hardware, including upgrading the exhaust studs, replaced all of the gaskets with OEM Toyota stuff, including the horn rings, used a blockoff plate like you did, bolted evertthing together and after then I had the manifold machined perfectly flat, then - because oftentimes the mounting holes are not centered perfectly and the washers can put uneven pressure on the exhaust vs. the intake pieces, I had the holes drilled, and then countersunk so that the mounting washers put perfect and even torque on both pieces of the manifold.

basically made the best possible stock 2f Toyota manifold I could, using the best hardware, gaskets, and machining I could find. My version of the "ultimate Manifold"

NEW on top, Take off on the bottom:

 

[Miloslavich]

More Manifold Porn:

@ToyotaMatt 's Exhaust downpipe hardware:

OEM Gaskets:

New studs in the Head, and a light coat of Copper Coat on the factory gasket - some will naysay that move, but its amazing stuff and it WORKS.

 

[Miloslavich]

Properly torqued to factory spec with an Aerospace grade torque wrench, hopefully good to go for another 30 years

 

[Miloslavich]

One more view of the manifold, here you can see the drill matched and countersunk holes where the mounting hardware / washers go

 

[GeologistFelix]

Okay, that's all absolutely gorgeous. Unless someone shows me either a much nicer medium-cheap header than the JT Outfitters style 6-into-1 style or absolutely loves their $800+ MAF or SOR setup, I'm convinced that polishing the turd is worth the effort.

Time to start making a part list...
- Felpro gaskets?
- Bolts/nuts/studs/washers
- 2x rings and 2x springs for the two horns? So, 2 of each total, right?
- Other stuff I'm failing to anticipate?

Happy to hear other thoughts on all of this, too!

 

[Miloslavich]

Ok:

Toyota OE gaskets. Yes, go thru the dealer or someone here on mud, get Toyota gaskets. you can use Remflex stuff for the EGR and J pipe blockoff plates (they are good here) but use Toyota for the manifold gasket. trust me on this.

Toyota rings and springs - again.. use the good stuff..

Bolts nuts studs washers
Copper coat the mani gasket:
Amazon product ASIN B000M8NZ8E
torque wrench - do it right, not "good n tight"

Machinist - find a good one, dont let them tell you they cant countersink the holes or cant get it right...

@ToyotaMatt should be able to help you with hardware and maybe even source you the Toyota gaskets you need.

12 year old Scottish Malt, or Kentucky Burbon.

Cheers

 

[Seth S]

The nice thing about 3FE exhaust manifolds is you can usually find a clean set for less than $100. Its not a bad idea to have their mounting surfaces cleaned up at a machine shop but the need to have everything match machined is not critical like it is with the stock 2F setup. The one thing that you might have to do is have the bolt/nut surfaces matched so you can properly and evenly tighten the mounting hardware. You will need to make up some sort of Y pipe to connect to your 60 exhaust. The advantage of going this route is you get quite a bit better exhaust flow and you are not spending $$$$ for headers. I'd love to see actual dyno numbers of the same engine running with the stock exhaust, 3FE exhaust, and headers to see what the actual difference is.

 

[Seth S]

There seems to be one line of people who use Remflex and another line of people using Toyota gaskets and both spokes people saying "Trust me on this"

 

[Miloslavich]

There seems to be one line of people who use Remflex and another line of people using Toyota gaskets and both spokes people saying "Trust me on this"

I run both. Trust me on this. ha!


Remflex on the EGR blockoff and J pipe, and Toyota on the manifold/head


Reason is the remflex takes a lower torque spec.. its a thicker, squishier gasket, and thus it can seal up less than perfect manifolds and surfaces. They work, but:

if you've got a perfectly machined manifold, a perfectly flat head, brand new hardware, why not use the Toyota gasket with a higher torque spec, as the OE engineers intended..

 

[GeologistFelix]

One more view of the manifold, here you can see the drill matched and countersunk holes where the mounting hardware / washers go
View attachment 2392438

Ok:

Toyota OE gaskets. Yes, go thru the dealer or someone here on mud, get Toyota gaskets. you can use Remflex stuff for the EGR and J pipe blockoff plates (they are good here) but use Toyota for the manifold gasket. trust me on this.

Toyota rings and springs - again.. use the good stuff..

Bolts nuts studs washers
Copper coat the mani gasket:
Amazon product ASIN B000M8NZ8E
torque wrench - do it right, not "good n tight"

Machinist - find a good one, dont let them tell you they cant countersink the holes or cant get it right...

@ToyotaMatt should be able to help you with hardware and maybe even source you the Toyota gaskets you need.

12 year old Scottish Malt, or Kentucky Burbon.

Cheers

I've read TONS of places that the Toyota OEM manifold gasket is *exactly* the same part as the 'generic' Felpro gasket for the 2F, and it's usually a buck or two cheaper. Otherwise, all good advice. Way ahead of you on the torque wrench -- I think doing those bolts and nuts to the right values, in the right sequence, is the only reason it took this long for it to start leaking.

Now, on the other hand, I think the weather here is too hot to fully appreciate scotch, so I might substitute for mezcal.

 

[Miloslavich]

I had not heard that about the toyota /felpro. you're probably right.

and GOOD call on sequence. I forgot to mention that.. follow the FSM, - torqued to the right values, IN the right sequence

Mezcal - that'll do!

 

[Miloslavich]

Heat Riser Block Off Plates for your F/2F

Suffering from a cracked intake manifold on your F or 2F engine? Many F/2F equipped Land Cruisers suffer from a cracked intake causing a major vacuum leak and poor running conditions. It's possible to have your intake professionally tig-weld repaired but we have a much cheaper alternative...

forum.ih8mud.com

Link to the heat riser block off plate. ☝

forgot to include that on the list earlier.

 

[WSOPgold2012]

Okay, that's all absolutely gorgeous. Unless someone shows me either a much nicer medium-cheap header than the JT Outfitters style 6-into-1 style or absolutely loves their $800+ MAF or SOR setup, I'm convinced that polishing the turd is worth the effort.

Time to start making a part list...
- Felpro gaskets?
- Bolts/nuts/studs/washers
- 2x rings and 2x springs for the two horns? So, 2 of each total, right?
- Other stuff I'm failing to anticipate?

Happy to hear other thoughts on all of this, too!

Howd this turn out? I have the ceramic MAF headers....no complaints after 1+

years. Curious if i shldve went a different route.

 

[GeologistFelix]

Howd this turn out? I have the ceramic MAF headers....no complaints after 1+View attachment 2519234View attachment 2519235 years. Curious if i shldve went a different route.

Short answer: I bought a DD and decided to fix way more crap on the cruiser at once. Current plan is donor exhaust manifold (in the mail!), new gaskets and hardware, get them machined (or not) depending on how close they are to fitting flush as-is. I'm pretty sure I'm swapping a new engine (or at least a different head that won't use 2F exhaust, for friggin' sure) in the next year or two, so suddenly I'm a lot less concerned with 20-year longevity for the fix. If I do end up deciding to put TBI on my engine, though, I'll just have to fix anything which I half-ass on the manifolds this time around.

 

[MoaByte]

Even with TBI, the heat riser helps. My Sniper hates the cold intake on these 17° mornings. There is a kit to plumb warm coolant to the void left behind under the intake if you ditch the stock exhaust manifold. I'm thinking I should source one. Anybody know?

 

[rhah]

Short version: I have exhaust leaks, 8 years after replacing my manifold gasket and want the fix to last.

Basic Stats:
- 12/'85 US-market FJ60
- Cheap-as-possible but properly planned desmog, trollhole carb, and recurved OEM dissy, with no plans to move to a place where any of that matters in less than 4 years.
- Replaced the manifold gasket 9 years ago and desmogged 8 years ago, didn't get anything machined, but the manifolds and head measured flat, and it didn't leak until 6 months ago, so?
- Ditched the original heat riser between the intake and exhaust and replaced it with SOR's non-moving spacer plate dealie.
- No signs of cracking on the intake.
- Want to swap the carb for a Holley Sniper TBI setup this fall.

The Issue:
- Bad-enough-to-hear-under-acceleration exhaust leak between one horn and the main exhaust manifold body. Definitely needs the funky spring/ring gasket replaced.
- Shop-vac and soapy water leak test shows definite leaks on the main manifold gasket surface, the other exhaust horn joint, the EGR downpipe plug, and the gasket between the intake and exhaust.
- Had to use all sorts of nonstandard hardware (including one stripped bolt between the intake and the exhaust, which I had to drill out and retap for a bigger bolt). I'd like to replace every bolt and nut from the carb base to the exhaust downpipe.

Here are the three options I'm seeing:
1.) Replace every friggin' piece of the exhaust manifold other than the main body and two horns, get it and the manifold machined flush together, bolt it all up, and hope that does it.
2.) Same as #1, but get a donor manifold set so I'm not without a vehicle for potentially 2-3 weeks if it turns out I have to wait for any parts in the mail once it's taken apart.
3.) Get a header, get it and my intake machined flush together, get a new header-to-tailpipe exhaust welded up by a local shop (probably not a big deal, but I've never dealt with a muffler shop before?).

Can anyone make a strong recommendation for (or against) any of those?

How about a suggested parts list if I refurbish my/an OEM manifold? Bolts/nuts/washers/studs, a bunch of expensive springs for the horn seals, new manifold/EGR downpipe plug/manifold-to-manifold-heat-riser/etc. gaskets, but what else should I replace to save on future headaches?

If a header seems like a good solution, what's actually on the market and good these days? Googling turns up a ton of threads that are 10-15 years out of date, which isn't exactly useful, and I think I'd rather not spend $800+ for the MAF setup, no matter how pretty it is.

May I ask why go through all that work for a 2f?
New exhaust and Holley sniper your looking at close to 2k dollars.

you can do a v8 swap for less and an LS swap for basically the same price.

I mean since your talking about new exhaust and all

buuuutif you must you can do a header replacement in a couple of hours no machine shop needed. Exhaust shop can weld you new stuff in an afternoon

holler if you need help, the garage doors always open to 60’s