fuel system basics -- converting FJ60 to diesel
- Thread starter polarweasel
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- Thread starter
- #82
Haven't done a damn thing in the last week. We're sourcing a couple of t-case shafts, I picked up some parts (thanks so much, fng55!), and I guess next weekend we'll get going again...
Just helped pull an air-cooled VW bus engine. I like Cruisers better, but damn that's light!
Just helped pull an air-cooled VW bus engine. I like Cruisers better, but damn that's light!
Polarweasel,
I see that you've posted some new pics on your website. The progress looks great. How's it fit in there? Do you have the clearance you want between the sump and the front dif? Just curious...
I see that you've posted some new pics on your website. The progress looks great. How's it fit in there? Do you have the clearance you want between the sump and the front dif? Just curious...
- Thread starter
- #84
The engine looks nice in there. With the OME lift, there's quite a lot of clearance on the sump. I don't think we'll even need to lengthen the bumpstops, but we might rearrange the steering stabilizer. Haven't gotten there yet.
We're going to have to move the t-case back, though. The engine and tranny are longer than we thought. Oops.
That'll make for an interesting fit in a 40, too. We'll likely lengthen Gregg's wheelbase a few inches so that he can have a rear driveshaft. Picky bastard, he is.
We're going to have to move the t-case back, though. The engine and tranny are longer than we thought. Oops.
That'll make for an interesting fit in a 40, too. We'll likely lengthen Gregg's wheelbase a few inches so that he can have a rear driveshaft. Picky bastard, he is.
One thing I have noticed driving my 300D is the 5 cyl definatetly like higher rpm more than the 3B. It is quite happy to rev. Infact it has more power when reving. I would try for the gearing to be higher than normal.
- Thread starter
- #87
I have a 1" body lift, and OME heavy springs. I think that's about 3-4" total. 33s look puny, for what that's worth.
Cool - I've been thinking about doing this swap on my '87. I am planning a 3- 4" lift prior to the swap so that's good news to hear you clear the front sump with that amount of lift. I've been reading about how this swap has been done using a Toyota manual transmission and that's how I want to do it. I've seen how an adaptor ring can be made using a Mercedes bell housing on a post to toyotadiesel.com. The guy that did that didn't seem to have any problems with vibration or counterbalance as I've seen mentioned. Good luck with your project - It's been great following the progress.
John
John
- Thread starter
- #89
John: got a link? The next one would be fun with a manual tranny, and would eliminate the divorce plate and shaft. We're looking at ZF (as used in Mercedes) and other options, and Toyota would be great.
If we could use a Toyota tranny, I might just keep this H42 (or whatever the non-USA 4-speed is called) that I was otherwise going to sell.
If we could use a Toyota tranny, I might just keep this H42 (or whatever the non-USA 4-speed is called) that I was otherwise going to sell.
Here's the link I was refering to - http://toyotadiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2516&highlight=mercedes
This was done on a 4Runner I believe, but it should actaully be easier on a Cruiser since there is more room. The pics aren't great but from what I can see he used about the front inch or two of the Mercedes bellhousing as the adaptor ring. It's blue in the photos. I suppose the Mercedes flywheel must extend back that extra inch or two as well. I would love to get my hands on a 617 with a manual tranny attached so I can see if this would really work - even better would be blueprints for that setup. I think he used the Mercedes Flywheel/pressureplate with a toyota clutch disk - That way the input shaft fits into the clutch disk. I guess he then used all the rest of the Toyota clutch parts. That would be cool - I think I'd put a H55 behind it for maximum gas milage. Then convert to WVO
.
John
This was done on a 4Runner I believe, but it should actaully be easier on a Cruiser since there is more room. The pics aren't great but from what I can see he used about the front inch or two of the Mercedes bellhousing as the adaptor ring. It's blue in the photos. I suppose the Mercedes flywheel must extend back that extra inch or two as well. I would love to get my hands on a 617 with a manual tranny attached so I can see if this would really work - even better would be blueprints for that setup. I think he used the Mercedes Flywheel/pressureplate with a toyota clutch disk - That way the input shaft fits into the clutch disk. I guess he then used all the rest of the Toyota clutch parts. That would be cool - I think I'd put a H55 behind it for maximum gas milage. Then convert to WVO
.John
Once you guys figure out how to make the MB diesel work with a manual transmission, you should make a conversion kit. I would buy it because my wrenching skills are 1/2 
at best!! This is a really sweet swap and I am looking forward to your progess. 
at best!! This is a really sweet swap and I am looking forward to your progess.
- Thread starter
- #92
That's the idea...
sorry guys i haven't been following this thread though I wish I had been! Anyway, the 617 is a good engine especially when tight, they'll last a long time. Last one I had I sold at 340K miles and its still truckin in KOLIFONIA somewhere, once in a blue moon I get a call from the owner who is very happy with it..
Anyway, it is more powerful than a 3B or a 2H for example but it is still underpowered IMO. I figure it is probably about the same power as a 2F or so but will drive differently. In the Benzes they are absolutely gutless until about 1600 when the turbo kicks in then wee! Better than the NA 617 models that are all around gutless. It is probably the best / easiest out of all the 80's diesel that were available around in the states and they can be found way cheap.. They redline way higher something like 4500 rpms though they are screaming. They have a short stroke just like a gas engine. Less overall torquey (but plenty of overall torque) because of the short stroke. This can be counteracted with advancing the timing. I drove a 617 turbo that had been put into a 240D standard once and it is noticeable more power, the Benz slush boxes that come behind them do suck up some power... All turbo 617 in the states had slushboxes behind. For a flywheel, use one from a 240D.
You can turn them up (read all about it on some of the Benz forums) but it is a major PITA, something probably best done before the engine goes in.. A big help with them also is to advance the timing. They ping a little more and idle louder but noticably more power off idle specifically. I would do a compressing test on anything you buy... Pretty sure the cheap Harbor Freight tester comes with the right adapters for benz glow plugs... Downfall of turning up fuel-wise with an indirect injection is too much fuel and boost pressures crack injector precups so you can only get limited power increases from this engine (Turbo indirect inject) unlike a TDI which you can usually crank as the expense of lost fuel efficency and more smoke.
Some guys put them in unimogs to compensate for the gutless NA 6 cyl diesels that come in 406/416 models... But it is amazing they came with such gutless diesels but they have 7.xx gearing to compensate even with those big ass tires...
Anyway, I do think its a neat swap. It is a cheap option but lack of adapters is a downfall. I'd probably do it in a 40 and/or something I didn't need to be ni a hurry in. It'd be a great off road or trail engine because they are still quiet and run on any angle like any diesel...
Also the 4BTs are great and are powerful IMO but are not the endall in regards to power.. They do not have gobs of power, they are just "powered well" IMO...
Anywhoo, keep us posted if possible! PS maybe you can get Luke to finally sack up and get those adapters made. I think they would sell well especially for mini truck guys IMO
Also there is a site where a guy put in a NA 240 4 cyl diesel into a Rover and had an adapter made.. Same bolt pattern
Here we go: http://www.mercedesrover.freeservers.com/photo.html
Anyway, it is more powerful than a 3B or a 2H for example but it is still underpowered IMO. I figure it is probably about the same power as a 2F or so but will drive differently. In the Benzes they are absolutely gutless until about 1600 when the turbo kicks in then wee! Better than the NA 617 models that are all around gutless. It is probably the best / easiest out of all the 80's diesel that were available around in the states and they can be found way cheap.. They redline way higher something like 4500 rpms though they are screaming. They have a short stroke just like a gas engine. Less overall torquey (but plenty of overall torque) because of the short stroke. This can be counteracted with advancing the timing. I drove a 617 turbo that had been put into a 240D standard once and it is noticeable more power, the Benz slush boxes that come behind them do suck up some power... All turbo 617 in the states had slushboxes behind. For a flywheel, use one from a 240D.
You can turn them up (read all about it on some of the Benz forums) but it is a major PITA, something probably best done before the engine goes in.. A big help with them also is to advance the timing. They ping a little more and idle louder but noticably more power off idle specifically. I would do a compressing test on anything you buy... Pretty sure the cheap Harbor Freight tester comes with the right adapters for benz glow plugs... Downfall of turning up fuel-wise with an indirect injection is too much fuel and boost pressures crack injector precups so you can only get limited power increases from this engine (Turbo indirect inject) unlike a TDI which you can usually crank as the expense of lost fuel efficency and more smoke.
Some guys put them in unimogs to compensate for the gutless NA 6 cyl diesels that come in 406/416 models... But it is amazing they came with such gutless diesels but they have 7.xx gearing to compensate even with those big ass tires...
Anyway, I do think its a neat swap. It is a cheap option but lack of adapters is a downfall. I'd probably do it in a 40 and/or something I didn't need to be ni a hurry in. It'd be a great off road or trail engine because they are still quiet and run on any angle like any diesel...
Also the 4BTs are great and are powerful IMO but are not the endall in regards to power.. They do not have gobs of power, they are just "powered well" IMO...
Anywhoo, keep us posted if possible! PS maybe you can get Luke to finally sack up and get those adapters made. I think they would sell well especially for mini truck guys IMO
Also there is a site where a guy put in a NA 240 4 cyl diesel into a Rover and had an adapter made.. Same bolt pattern
Here we go: http://www.mercedesrover.freeservers.com/photo.html
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Here is another site, this guy might have some autocad or something on the adapter plate, even though you will need cruiser or GM V8 pattern.
http://www.seriestrek.com/engine.html
Also there are some custom bellhousing makers out there on the net. There is a guy in the bay area I think, Bob Weir adapters (not Bob Weir from the Dead), who makes them. I found all this years ago when I was trying to source an adapter for a Isuzu diesel, which is also another killer option.
Also by the way, a guy now makes adapters for Isuzu diesels. www.Isuzudieselswapper.com
http://www.seriestrek.com/engine.html
Also there are some custom bellhousing makers out there on the net. There is a guy in the bay area I think, Bob Weir adapters (not Bob Weir from the Dead), who makes them. I found all this years ago when I was trying to source an adapter for a Isuzu diesel, which is also another killer option.
Also by the way, a guy now makes adapters for Isuzu diesels. www.Isuzudieselswapper.com
Hi all,
I’m the guy that put the 616 4cyl NA Benz diesel in the old Land Rover and the one who makes adapter plates for doing so. Someone sent me a link to this thread and I thought I’d chime in. Funny, I joined this board a while back when I had a FJ60 to sell. How come none of you cheap bastards bought it?
Anyway, the Rover I drive now has a 616 bolted to a Rover manual transmission thru my adapter plate. It uses the Benz flywheel, clutch disk and pressure plate and the Rover throw-out bearing.
I’m in the beginning stages of building another Land Rover that will get a Benz 617 turbo bolted to a Toyota H55F 5-speed tranny. I won’t, however, use an adapter plate for this one. But more on that in chapter two!
Let me give you some background on Benz engines and transmissions.
First: There was never a manual transmission 617 car imported to North America. All were automatics.
Second: Both 616 and 617 engines are balanced with the flywheel whether they were manual or automatic cars.
Third: In order to bolt a manual tranny to the back of a 617 you’ll need either a 617 manual flywheel, (must be imported from Europe) or a 616 manual flywheel, (what everyone that puts a manual tranny in their 300D uses). They’re not the same part number and don’t weigh quite as much, but they will work.
Fourth: Because these engines are balance with the flywheel, you’ll need to match the balance on your newly found 616 manual flywheel to the old automatic flywheel. (If you’ve never seen the automatic flywheel, it’s not just a flex-plate…It has some weight to it) Any good speed shop should be able to do this for you. Take both flywheels to them and they’ll be able to match one to the other. Make sure you mark the old flywheel to the crankshaft before you remove it!!!! Some have marks from the factory but most do not!!!!!! It won’t do you much good to balance the flywheel if you don’t know what position it should be in to bolt it back up.
Now, if you’re going to bolt a Benz tranny to the back of your 617, all you’ll need is your newly balanced flywheel and you’re good to go. I, however, am not using the Benz tranny, I’m going to use the Toyota H55F 5-speed.
Chapter 2:
Most manual transmissions that Mercedes bolted to the back of these 616 engines have an integral bellhousing. The early ones, however, had a separate bellhousing. What I plan to do is make the Toyota H55F bolt to the back of the early Mercedes bellhousing. It will probably require welding a plate to the back of it but it shouldn’t be too big of a deal. I should be able to use the Benz slave cylinder, clutch fork and Toyota throw-out bearing. I will also be able to use the Benz pressure plate and probably the clutch disk as well, though I’m not quite sure about that yet. I’m sure I’ll have to make my own pilot bushing but that’s easy.
If you guys are interested in putting one of these 617s in a Cruiser, this is what I would be trying to do. Using the not-so-strong Benz automatic and a divorced t-case doesn’t sound like a great idea to me.
Anyway, that’s my $0.02. This project is just underway a couple months ago and getting my axles built and a rolling chassis together will take first priority. I have an engine and the early bellhousing already but getting the engine and tranny together probably won’t happen before this time next year.
Jim
http://www.seriestrek.com
I’m the guy that put the 616 4cyl NA Benz diesel in the old Land Rover and the one who makes adapter plates for doing so. Someone sent me a link to this thread and I thought I’d chime in. Funny, I joined this board a while back when I had a FJ60 to sell. How come none of you cheap bastards bought it?
Anyway, the Rover I drive now has a 616 bolted to a Rover manual transmission thru my adapter plate. It uses the Benz flywheel, clutch disk and pressure plate and the Rover throw-out bearing.
I’m in the beginning stages of building another Land Rover that will get a Benz 617 turbo bolted to a Toyota H55F 5-speed tranny. I won’t, however, use an adapter plate for this one. But more on that in chapter two!
Let me give you some background on Benz engines and transmissions.
First: There was never a manual transmission 617 car imported to North America. All were automatics.
Second: Both 616 and 617 engines are balanced with the flywheel whether they were manual or automatic cars.
Third: In order to bolt a manual tranny to the back of a 617 you’ll need either a 617 manual flywheel, (must be imported from Europe) or a 616 manual flywheel, (what everyone that puts a manual tranny in their 300D uses). They’re not the same part number and don’t weigh quite as much, but they will work.
Fourth: Because these engines are balance with the flywheel, you’ll need to match the balance on your newly found 616 manual flywheel to the old automatic flywheel. (If you’ve never seen the automatic flywheel, it’s not just a flex-plate…It has some weight to it) Any good speed shop should be able to do this for you. Take both flywheels to them and they’ll be able to match one to the other. Make sure you mark the old flywheel to the crankshaft before you remove it!!!! Some have marks from the factory but most do not!!!!!! It won’t do you much good to balance the flywheel if you don’t know what position it should be in to bolt it back up.
Now, if you’re going to bolt a Benz tranny to the back of your 617, all you’ll need is your newly balanced flywheel and you’re good to go. I, however, am not using the Benz tranny, I’m going to use the Toyota H55F 5-speed.
Chapter 2:
Most manual transmissions that Mercedes bolted to the back of these 616 engines have an integral bellhousing. The early ones, however, had a separate bellhousing. What I plan to do is make the Toyota H55F bolt to the back of the early Mercedes bellhousing. It will probably require welding a plate to the back of it but it shouldn’t be too big of a deal. I should be able to use the Benz slave cylinder, clutch fork and Toyota throw-out bearing. I will also be able to use the Benz pressure plate and probably the clutch disk as well, though I’m not quite sure about that yet. I’m sure I’ll have to make my own pilot bushing but that’s easy.
If you guys are interested in putting one of these 617s in a Cruiser, this is what I would be trying to do. Using the not-so-strong Benz automatic and a divorced t-case doesn’t sound like a great idea to me.
Anyway, that’s my $0.02. This project is just underway a couple months ago and getting my axles built and a rolling chassis together will take first priority. I have an engine and the early bellhousing already but getting the engine and tranny together probably won’t happen before this time next year.
Jim
http://www.seriestrek.com
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- Thread starter
- #98
Welcome, Jim and Andre. Nice to have voices of experience. Too late for my rig, but I already have other diesel projects in mind.
Jim: sent you a PM...
Andre: same bolt pattern as what?
Alex
Jim: sent you a PM...
Andre: same bolt pattern as what?
Alex
Welcome, Jim and Andre. Nice to have voices of experience. Too late for my rig, but I already have other diesel projects in mind.
Ditto! Jim, I'm interested to see how your next project turns out!!
- Thread starter
- #100
Current progress: the engine and transmission are mounted in place in the truck, and I towed it down from Estes Park to my shop in Boulder.
Next up: wiring, divorce plate, hoses, and driveshafts. I doubt I'll have it running by Christmas, since I do want to get in some snowboarding and whatnot, but I'm definitely closing in on its maiden voyage...
A few pictures to come later. Too tired to find my camera tonight.
Next up: wiring, divorce plate, hoses, and driveshafts. I doubt I'll have it running by Christmas, since I do want to get in some snowboarding and whatnot, but I'm definitely closing in on its maiden voyage...
A few pictures to come later. Too tired to find my camera tonight.