Frame cutting, mods and welding (2 Viewers)

[mudgudgeon]

So Tig welding is a different beast. With proper heat settings you can deposit more filler running down hill but in reality I still prefer up.

Cool. TIG amazes me with how much you can direct the weld pool.

I learnt to weld with an oxy torch doing fusion welding of mid steel. TIG feels very similar in a lot of ways

 

[LINUS]

Does the same apply if using TIG?

Running a bead uphill is a tough talent in TIG. At least was for me / scratch-arc TIG in the refinery.

We really used TIG to control material for a root pass building spoolpieces (flanged sections all ports) - so you didn’t drop excess / finer control of inside weld bead profile.

Too much weld hanging in pipe joints created “back eddies” - like a current in the river you see near bends - that metal overhang / back-eddy would eat the stainless downstream of the weld faster because of the tubulence.

Also, TIG let you control heat (SS will cool & contract like crazy if you aren’t using levels/laser guides to keep flanges parallel/90° perpendicular to each other.

So we TIG’ed the root pass, buildup was DC stick once you had your spool built & square.

 

[firestopper]

This unit really affords very good control when TIG welding out of position. The biggest thing in any welding process is being in a comfortable position.
This transformer type unit requires a robust power supply compare to the smaller inverter counter parts.
For those who noticed the 73 Amp display, it was set up for repairing a cast iron part using silicon bronze.

 

[ntsqd]

Cool. TIG amazes me with how much you can direct the weld pool.

I learnt to weld with an oxy torch doing fusion welding of mid steel. TIG feels very similar in a lot of ways

When I informally taught GTAW to my fellow Mfg students those that had some time running an oxy-fuel welding rig had a far easier time picking up TIG. Though to a person they kept "controlling" the heat by pulling the TIG torch away from the weld puddle.

Si-Br works OK on some cast iron, but Rockmount Jupiter is the catzazz for fixing cast iron, if it can be fixed at all. Bring your wallet. Or get set-up for Lock-n-Stitch if broken cast iron is a frequent feature.

FWIW I've made a similar appeal to put the tongue of a trailer UNDER the main frame instead of butting it to the front of the main frame. This is done in order to double the section depth where it is needed most. It mostly falls on deaf ears or someone points to all of the trailers made badly that haven't (yet) failed as justification for continuing to make bad design and fabrication decisions. I see asking you (me) to point out frames that have failed as evidence of the problem as similar to sticking their heads in the sand. The information on how to do these things correctly, as has been determined from Engineering Analysis and more importantly from Forensic Analysis (that would be analyzing a failure to understand WHY it failed and how the failure could have been prevented) is out there and available. Just have to use it.

 

[firestopper]

Back in the late 70's when attending my "introduction to welding" (beginners) in HS the process went as such.

1) Book work "theories of welding" along with safety.
2) Forging (hands on).
3) Oxy/Acetylene cutting- then welding. We had to weld stringers of beads until the instructor was satisfied with quality and consistency.
then Butt , T, Lap joints in the flat position. followed by horizontal, vertical and finally overhead. We also learn to braze with the same joints and positions, This normally took a whole year.

With a passing grade you could then sign up for beginners/intermediate welding .
1) More book work focused on SMAW.
2) Many stringers in flat with 60 series rod then on to 70 series rod.
3) Same joints as gas welding and same positions.
4) Passing grade was a destructive test in all positions . All test plates were beveled , welded, then strips cut and on to the press for bending.
The weld joint was examined by the instructor and a pass/fail was given.
This process took another year.

With a passing grade you could then sign up for advanced welding that included Mig (GMAW) then Tig (GTAW) . At the completion of this course you could come away with a basic certification. Once he trusted us, the instructor would allow us to bring in welding projects.

I also served in the Navy and went on to welding school. I worked shore duty at Sub-base Peal Harbor. fabricating and welding on Submarines. The certification process was pretty intense and I only used SMAW for all repairs on Subs. Mig was reserved for lighter fabrication and TIG was only used by the "Nuke welding" shop.

Back in the day, all public schools from Junior High to High School offered many Vocational Education courses. This is gone in most cases and now leads us to many self taught individuals. Nothing wrong with this so long as we understand our limitations and commit to the book side of the trade.

Forums are a great source of learning but one must filter the bad info as well.

ntsqd makes a great point about the importance of a trailer tongue location.

This is the beginning of a 14K dump trailer I built a few years back. The frame is upside down in the photo but you can see the tongue location.

A Miller P350 was used in pulse mode for the entire build.

 

[LINUS]

@firestopper -

+1 to the Miller 350 - I bucked up for one, U-groove pulleys, & a push-pull for it so I can do all from steel to AL.

It’s overkill mostly for home, but having the AL capability is nice when dropping alot of bead W/o being on the designated 350 aluma-pro.

If you have an early 350p don’t be surprised if the control board goes - I forget the serial number, but most of the 1st yr+ of models have had an issue w/ the board so the 350p got a bad rep early on, but Miller updated the board flaw - IIRC it’s about a $200 board.

At some point I want to build a small AL jet boat like the Kiwi’s run - ~12’ / 2 person boat & over there alot of them rob jets & motors from old Waverunners & small Yamaha type jet boats.
—Real manuverable, near flat bottom so they pop on step real easy, but really meant for tight rivers & lake fishing.

I have a GTAW that was a damaged Miller Hobby-pro (I forget) - the base was bent so bad / taco’d the circ/cooling fans were hung up on the transformer - I got it for <$300 shipped in the early days of ebay & a new base was only ~$50 thru Central weld / my local shop - it does AC tig but has a fairly light duty cycle.

+1 to the tongue lap design > butted to box of frame - that’s an extremely good design move IMO.

 

[firestopper]

@firestopper -

+1 to the Miller 350 - I bucked up for one, U-groove pulleys, & a push-pull for it so I can do all from steel to AL.

It’s overkill mostly for home, but having the AL capability is nice when dropping alot of bead W/o being on the designated 350 aluma-pro.

If you have an early 350p don’t be surprised if the control board goes - I forget the serial number, but most of the 1st yr+ of models have had an issue w/ the board so the 350p got a bad rep early on, but Miller updated the board flaw - IIRC it’s about a $200 board.

At some point I want to build a small AL jet boat like the Kiwi’s run - ~12’ / 2 person boat & over there alot of them rob jets & motors from old Waverunners & small Yamaha type jet boats.
—Real manuverable, near flat bottom so they pop on step real easy, but really meant for tight rivers & lake fishing.

I have a GTAW that was a damaged Miller Hobby-pro (I forget) - the base was bent so bad / taco’d the circ/cooling fans were hung up on the transformer - I got it for <$300 shipped in the early days of ebay & a new base was only ~$50 thru Central weld / my local shop - it does AC tig but has a fairly light duty cycle.

+1 to the tongue lap design > butted to box of frame - that’s an extremely good design move IMO.

My P350 is first gen with only 150 hours on the clock. I use a miller 251 most days for 3/8” or less. I have a spare board on the shelf for said 350 but, still going strong. Your correct, those P350 did have a negative reputation early on.
The only Miller products I never warmed up to was the Cricket and the Spectrum 500 plasma.
I luv my 110 Lincoln and my Hypertherm 1250.
The rest of the Blue collection is great and works hard for me. Are you running the Cobra push/pull ? I keep a 30A spool gun attached to my P350. Gotta luv the “gun on demand” feature. For field work I run a Bobcat 225 that provides a stable power source. For shop hard facing work I use a Thunderbolt . This little machine has paid for itself many times over.
Cool story on tour TIG. eBay was once a great source for awesome deals but not so much these days. My TIG running gear was purchased new on EBay back in those days as well. It had skin damage (slight) and was offered by a welding supply house . I sniped a poor sap by $1.50 and won the machine new with a warranty and free shipping for $3200.50. The same machine at that time was just over $5K. I pulled the skin and used a thick rubber fatigue matt as a base and a dead blow to knock out the dent. Only a slight scratch remained.
let me know on your push/pull as I’m thinking of buying one. I have plans on building a aluminum overland camper for my 2500HD.

 

[ntsqd]

Hah! I'm still in the last welding epoch, running a 1986 Miller 250 at home. One race car fab shop that I worked in had a Lincoln 300/300. It wasn't much on the cool tricks, but boy could I stick a broken Sprint Car cyl head back together with it! And melt the coolant tubing if you're not careful (ask me how I know).

 

[LINUS]

@firestopper -

push - pull I’m on:

XR Aluma-Pro Air or Water Push-Pull Gun | MillerWelds

Robust professional-grade gun has the highest duty cycle rating in its class.

www.millerwelds.com

I hear it takes Cobra’s consumables/is rebranded Cobra (IDK for sure, Central always has tips for it onhand)
I haven’t pushed the duty to the point of wishing I’d gotten the water-cooled one, and frankly only 1 TIG machine at work has a water jacket - all field work is stick or scratch-arc TIG.

And yeah, I have that Bernard gun for all but AL, and I wish it wasn’t such a bear to maneuver / someday I may try to find either a lighter duty gun.
Great for hot beads in straight lines, but if I wasn’t used to them from the refinery / SS repair work we do, I’d hate the thing since my 350p is my home machine / I’m not a production shop.

That Bernard would discourage a home/pure hobbyist IMO, heavy gun, stiff jacket comared to any Miller mig gun on any of the smaller machines.

I just got spoiled on refinery gear so when I had really wore alot of life out of my old Challenger 172 & inverters were proving stable, I went all the way.

That & their 875 plasma round out my ‘wall of blue’ - I never do/use AL in the refinery, so I sorta overkilled on it, but I have thoughts of doing a plasma table, specifically this one:

CrossFire PRO CNC Plasma | Production Ready CNC Plasma Table

The 4'x3' Crossfire PRO CNC plasma table features powered Z-axis, height sensing and an optional automatic THC module. Take your fabrication to the next level.

www.langmuirsystems.com

- You know anybody on one?
We sub out CNC / plasma cut parts at work but I’ve asked those vendors and they’re all on $10K+ / full sheet capacity tables.
None knew 1st hand or seen the Crossfire in person.

I like having full width capacity, but 3’ the other way is plenty - bigger than that I’d cut with a guide or farm out shapes, esp if they need a bend on a press.

 

[PAToyota]

When I informally taught GTAW to my fellow Mfg students those that had some time running an oxy-fuel welding rig had a far easier time picking up TIG. Though to a person they kept "controlling" the heat by pulling the TIG torch away from the weld puddle.

Yep! They have the coordination to feed the filler rod in down pat, but modulating the heat takes some unlearning.

 

[firestopper]

@firestopper -

push - pull I’m on:

XR Aluma-Pro Air or Water Push-Pull Gun | MillerWelds

Robust professional-grade gun has the highest duty cycle rating in its class.

www.millerwelds.com

I hear it takes Cobra’s consumables/is rebranded Cobra (IDK for sure, Central always has tips for it onhand)
I haven’t pushed the duty to the point of wishing I’d gotten the water-cooled one, and frankly only 1 TIG machine at work has a water jacket - all field work is stick or scratch-arc TIG.

And yeah, I have that Bernard gun for all but AL, and I wish it wasn’t such a bear to maneuver / someday I may try to find either a lighter duty gun.
Great for hot beads in straight lines, but if I wasn’t used to them from the refinery / SS repair work we do, I’d hate the thing since my 350p is my home machine / I’m not a production shop.

That Bernard would discourage a home/pure hobbyist IMO, heavy gun, stiff jacket comared to any Miller mig gun on any of the smaller machines.

I just got spoiled on refinery gear so when I had really wore alot of life out of my old Challenger 172 & inverters were proving stable, I went all the way.

That & their 875 plasma round out my ‘wall of blue’ - I never do/use AL in the refinery, so I sorta overkilled on it, but I have thoughts of doing a plasma table, specifically this one:

CrossFire PRO CNC Plasma | Production Ready CNC Plasma Table

The 4'x3' Crossfire PRO CNC plasma table features powered Z-axis, height sensing and an optional automatic THC module. Take your fabrication to the next level.

www.langmuirsystems.com

- You know anybody on one?
We sub out CNC / plasma cut parts at work but I’ve asked those vendors and they’re all on $10K+ / full sheet capacity tables.
None knew 1st hand or seen the Crossfire in person.

I like having full width capacity, but 3’ the other way is plenty - bigger than that I’d cut with a guide or farm out shapes, esp if they need a bend on a press.

Gonna save up for that 35' air cooled unit.

No info on the crossfire here.

I been running a 60" x 130" CNC plasma table since 2005. I built a water table for it that keeps the nasties down pretty well. I usually only fire it up when I have significant cutting since I don't like to keep H20 in it for long periods. I'm paranoid about the humidity levels with the mills and lathe in the same building.

This is the unit. It utilized digital hight control for Z axis. Capable of 700 IPM for thin sheets. I use Bobcad to design and sheet cam to generate G code. The system utilizes Mach for control. It was a learning curve (still is) but the first big job paid for the system. I think theres better units out there now with the popularity of CNC machines.

The cut quality on some 1/2" AR500 for a range job I did.

The air system is key to consumable longevity. When I built the new shop I designed a loop system with a pre-cooler and bypass for the refigeration when not running the plasma table. The air is 100% clean and dry. I do run lubricators for the mill (drawbar) and for the cold saw (auto vise). I mention this only because folks overlook the added cost of quality air supply when operating a CNC plasma table.
I used rapid pipe for the air supply. 1" extruded aluminum with a blue powder coat finish. the system is rated to 195 psi. The system features several auto dumps and a large traffic light that serves as a pilot light so I don't forget to turn off the system at the end of the day. I have also added an hour meter the compressor for Maintanace purposes.

The table is a handy to have for multiple pieces but also for those custom tools. The Hypertherm disconnects quickly and a manual torch can be used along with a 10lb desiccant pressure vessel for out door cutting or gouging.

 

[toyotaboy80]

I'm thinkin the vertical 90 degree crowd just thinks its welded together, it must be good. Ya no. Lol

The disclaimer on a metal glue gun machine subscript welding anything on a high speed 5000lb land barge should say:

Until you know what youre supposed to be doing, and can achieve it, step away from the welder

And the disclaimer on the frame splice section should say: just because its welded doesnt mean physics dont still apply to that vertical 90 you are thinking of welding on the frame rail that twists horizontally.

 

[ntsqd]

To keep myself in check I always think of welds as "on-site castings." Think about the resulting metallurgy of a weld bead, it IS a casting. Now how do you want the position that casting to be as strong as it needs to be?

EDIT: Credit where due; My thinking of welds as on-site castings started from reading one of Carroll Smith's books. He was the other "Carroll" at Shelby Ent. and his book "Engineer to Win" should be required reading for every automotive hobby fabricator.

 

[cruisermatt]

I'm thinkin the vertical 90 degree crowd just thinks its welded together, it must be good. Ya no. Lol

The disclaimer on a metal glue gun machine subscript welding anything on a high speed 5000lb land barge should say:

Until you know what youre supposed to be doing, and can achieve it, step away from the welder

And the disclaimer on the frame splice section should say: just because its welded doesnt mean physics dont still apply to that vertical 90 you are thinking of welding on the frame rail that twists horizontally.

so it sounds like you've seen a lot of frames splices break?

 

[kirvesmies]

When I informally taught GTAW to my fellow Mfg students those that had some time running an oxy-fuel welding rig had a far easier time picking up TIG. Though to a person they kept "controlling" the heat by pulling the TIG torch away from the weld puddle.

Si-Br works OK on some cast iron, but Rockmount Jupiter is the catzazz for fixing cast iron, if it can be fixed at all. Bring your wallet. Or get set-up for Lock-n-Stitch if broken cast iron is a frequent feature.

FWIW I've made a similar appeal to put the tongue of a trailer UNDER the main frame instead of butting it to the front of the main frame. This is done in order to double the section depth where it is needed most. It mostly falls on deaf ears or someone points to all of the trailers made badly that haven't (yet) failed as justification for continuing to make bad design and fabrication decisions. I see asking you (me) to point out frames that have failed as evidence of the problem as similar to sticking their heads in the sand. The information on how to do these things correctly, as has been determined from Engineering Analysis and more importantly from Forensic Analysis (that would be analyzing a failure to understand WHY it failed and how the failure could have been prevented) is out there and available. Just have to use it.

ageed on the trailer tongue under the main frame. to me that's just common sense

 

[toyotaboy80]

so it sounds like you've seen a lot of frames splices break?

I see what youre trying to insinuate. No, I havent seen a lot of broken frame splices. To regress, I have only ever laid my eyes on 1 frame splice. And it was my own. Done on 45's and round ended fish plates with rosette welds in addition. There are zero miles on the frame since the mod. Still putting the truck back together.

I have seen welds fail though. And it happens like a can opener when they fail. Having said that, I'd suggest anyone who doesnt have a theoretical(or practical)clue as to what they're doing, should reconsider what theyre doing and why.

The 90 vs 45 argument is just that. An argument. For why it should be done this way and not that way. There is a reason why there are industrial standards for executing certain welding tasks.

The semi-truck that left the factory as a base option length to then get shortened or lengthened at the dealership to meet the customer needs, surely didnt just get bucked off at random and spliced back together and kicked out the door with 90° fish plates. It got done "properly" to adhere to a many many many many many mile long service standard.

Buddy restoring his cruiser in his back yard can just buck it off on 90's and booger weld the fish plate on at 90, and probably go get jugs of milk for the rest of his life without concern.

I would put my money on the frame that was done "properly" if the goal was to return the frame to OE service.... I.e, millions of miles capable on and off road flexing in all sorts of manners. I wouldnt put money on a 90° slap it together job if the frame was actually expected to be used for its intended purpose.

I'll give credit that the unibody design bolted onto the frame with 4 6 or 8 or 10 body mounts helps keep the frame square in addition to the 3 or 4 crossmembers in the frame. Therefore putting a splice under a cab or body mounted section largely reduces the amount of twist the joint will see. So, maybe a full pentetration profressional weld job on 90's will hold up. Who knows.

This is kind of like an OE vs Fram argument. Are they both going to work? Sure I guess. Not really though.

At the end of the day, fram products will never see anything I own, and cutting junk on 45's can be just as easy as cutting 90's.

Do whatever you want.... but as the OP said, we all share the same highway. If you've modified it from OE standard, hopefully you know what youre doing.

(And when I say "you", I mean literally anyone. Not you personally)

 

[ntsqd]

If nothing else, splicing on a 45° increases the length of the weld bead. Longer bead + same load = lower stress in the metal. I can not think of a situation where that would be a bad thing.

 

[cruisermatt]

Agreed with all above, was just curious since I haven't seen any failures myself

 

[SNLC]

That is on a way over six figure build by a very famous shop. Not naming them here but man I personally would not be happy with that, especially if it cost me over $100k.

Cheers

 

[cwwfj60]

View attachment 2673926View attachment 2673927


That is on a way over six figure build by a very famous shop. Not naming them here but man I personally would not be happy with that, especially if it cost me over $100k.

Cheers

now I’m curious, why is the body coming back off?

Looks like an 80 chassis swapped 60, with a ls swap?