Flipping radius arms

[Squeegee]

Ya cutting welding and flipping isnt terribly expensive. You can 3-link for about $900.

Just the links. Yes. Everything else cost me about 5x that

 

[mudgudgeon]

You would think that mounting the arms on top of the axle would flatten the link. The antidive would get closer to 100% and the roll axis inclination would be more neural. I’ve never plotted it so it’s just a guess

I think it's counter intuitive. The pivot point on the frame doesn't change in relation to the centre of the axle.
Without fully understand this stuff, i think this is what influences roll centre, not the shape of the link itself

 

[Squeegee]

Well, in a multilink setup, I agree with you. But in this situation, there's no pivot occurring on the axle end - so the "link" is an imaginary line from the frame pivot to the axle center line (regardless of the shape or path of the RA.) That's why pinion angle is so touchy, right?

and like @Broski is saying; the tradeoff of increased ground clearance at the axle (where it probably matters less, right?) is potentially having the steering in harm's way - although caster correction won't have steering to RA contact issues in that orientation...

- don't get me wrong; if folks are into this, I'll make brackets for it

(Disclaimer - east coast time zone, so I'm on beer 3. possible errors in diction and articulation)

I had to ask an engineer. He said that you’re correct! The force vector comes from the center of the axle to the chassis pivot.

 

[baldilocks]

Ya cutting welding and flipping isnt terribly expensive. You can 3-link for about $900.

Perhaps just the 3 link itself if a guy does all his own work and retains the stock coil/shock set up. No matter the coils or coil overs, with a 3 link, high steer is a requirement and doing that right is where the money is.

There are a couple guys who frequent mud and tough trail situations ,possibly the toughest, that we’ve seen 80’s forced to traverse, and they run radius arms in the stock location. I can’t remember their mud handles at the moment but I’ve seen some videos. Their trucks have actual body damage caused by wheeling though…..

 

[SNLC]

You’re starting from scratch with your diamond housing so that leaves a lot more options.
I’m familiar with crossover steering in my opinion the real gain in protection for the steering in the front is the high steer set up requiring the front range Keyed knuckles or the hellfire knuckles and associated parts.

IMHO you have to try really hard to bend the tire rod in the stock location.

In any case, I’m sure whatever you do it’s going to be bad ass just like the rest of the stuff you post up.

The problem with HF knuckles besides the panhard is if you want full compression the draglink will contact the frame rail. Can certainly fix that by notching the frame or limiting up travel. We actually have a 79-series LHD steering box here which uses the same size sector shaft as a 105 so nice and beefy. On a 70-series the steering box sits way far forward and the pitman arm swings back, like an old mini truck. Toyota did this to separate the panhard and steering box which we all know can cause cracks. It has been this way on 70-series too long before they went coil sprung front end. Coil sprung 70-series still have tie rod behind the axle though. I considered using it to improve on the cracking issue and perhaps make a cross over steering conversion easier.

I just don’t want to open up all these cans of worms and start doing major fab with Toyota axles. I also don’t want to drop the money on upgraded axles plus linked suspension at this time. I still want to play around with some things, make some improvements and have some fun building it. So perhaps a radius arm flip it is! Actually get some hands on with the mod myself and see what I think.

Cheers

 

[SNLC]

Perhaps just the 3 link itself if a guy does all his own work and retains the stock coil/shock set up. No matter the coils or coil overs, with a 3 link, high steer is a requirement and doing that right is where the money is.

There are a couple guys who frequent mud and tough trail situations ,possibly the toughest, that we’ve seen 80’s forced to traverse, and they run radius arms in the stock location. I can’t remember their mud handles at the moment but I’ve seen some videos. Their trucks have actual body damage caused by wheeling though…..

BoogerWelds if he still has it. He had a build thread here (and on pirate) ten years ago.

I have heavily considered doing links on stock coils with fancy shocks. I may do that eventually in my pickup build.

Cheers

 

[Broski]

The problem with HF knuckles besides the panhard is if you want full compression the draglink will contact the frame rail. Can certainly fix that by notching the frame or limiting up travel. We actually have a 79-series LHD steering box here which uses the same size sector shaft as a 105 so nice and beefy. On a 70-series the steering box sits way far forward and the pitman arm swings back, like an old mini truck. Toyota did this to separate the panhard and steering box which we all know can cause cracks. It has been this way on 70-series too long before they went coil sprung front end. Coil sprung 70-series still have tie rod behind the axle though. I considered using it to improve on the cracking issue and perhaps make a cross over steering conversion easier.

I just don’t want to open up all these cans of worms and start doing major fab with Toyota axles. I also don’t want to drop the money on upgraded axles plus linked suspension at this time. I still want to play around with some things, make some improvements and have some fun building it. So perhaps a radius arm flip it is! Actually get some hands on with the mod myself and see what I think.

Cheers

Again in your case I think it makes sense.
of course I’m assuming the diamond housing that you have is a clean slate and doing the flip is half as much work as you don’t have to do the worst part of the job cutting everything off and cleaning up the axle.
If one has to do all of that then I’m
Not sure the work is worth the gain.
It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
Also be interested in seeing how much lift is required to make it work.
I’m in the camp of small lift and low center of gravity so there’s that to.

 

[baldilocks]

Again in your case I think it makes sense.
of course I’m assuming the diamond housing that you have is a clean slate and doing the flip is half as much work as you don’t have to do the worst part of the job cutting everything off and cleaning up the axle.
If one has to do all of that then I’m
Not sure the work is worth the gain.
It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
Also be interested in seeing how much lift is required to make it work.
I’m in the camp of small lift and low center of gravity so there’s that to.

Old threads say a 4” lift is pretty much the minimum to make a RA flip work and maintain decent up travel.

 

[SNLC]

I do plan to harvest brackets from a stock 80 axle.

**** it maybe I will 3-link the front and keep it on coils!

I am planning to change all the shock mounts to eye, not a big fan of pin shocks. I would love to move the rear shocks behind the axle, also not a fan of them in front.

It’s all theory craft right now anyways. All my cash is going into my engine and body work for the cab.

Cheers

 

[Squeegee]

I do plan to harvest brackets from a stock 80 axle.

**** it maybe I will 3-link the front and keep it on coils!

I am planning to change all the shock mounts to eye, not a big fan of pin shocks. I would love to move the rear shocks behind the axle, also not a fan of them in front.

It’s all theory craft right now anyways. All my cash is going into my engine and body work for the cab.

Cheers

As a dude who got half way through a 3 link project just to realize that doing it with coils is dumb…. Just get coilovers if you’re going to link it, your packaging gets exponentially better.

Opening the can of worms is nice because you get better performing/ more robust end product at the end. You just have to spend a 100 hours making it and then another 100 hours fixing and tweaking stuff to get it there

It makes a light 80 with a 2” lift and 39s sound kinda nice

 

[Neil826]

I've often thought I'd like to do flipped arms, with 6" longer radius arms, but also triangulate them inwards where they mount to the frame, and raise mounts above the belly of the frame.
Combine that with 45⁰ bush placement at the diff housing, you'd open up a lot of flex, and keep road manners inherent in radius arm suspension ( or most of the manners).
Combine that with longer rear links, also triangulated slightly and raised above frame belly, and you open the door to a low, flexible sleeper of a cruiser.

There's a **** load of work in all that though.

My 80 I did basically this, if I remember correctly 280mm longer radius arms, flipped them somewhat to get away from the panhard and steering,

Retains factory 185mm bush seperation to keep controlled,

I triangulated them slightly out from chassis to axle to reduce roll steer and to clear the chassis on full bump,

I also raised the panhard approximately 50mm from its stock location and made it as long as possible to keep the arcs that the draglink and panhard travel as close as possible, I can go over speed bumps fast with my hands off the steering wheel and it doesn’t move.

The car drives as stock with 14” of travel in the front and 12” in the rear, it has 7” of uptravel on a low lift which means I should be able to get a pretty good shock tune into it

Front and rear of the car seem to flex pretty evenly now. It probably doesn’t look massively impressive but that’s because I didn’t bias towards droop only.

 

[mudgudgeon]

My 80 I did basically this, if I remember correctly 280mm longer radius arms, flipped them somewhat to get away from the panhard and steering,

Retains factory 185mm bush seperation to keep controlled,

I triangulated them slightly out from chassis to axle to reduce roll steer and to clear the chassis on full bump,

I also raised the panhard approximately 50mm from its stock location and made it as long as possible to keep the arcs that the draglink and panhard travel as close as possible, I can go over speed bumps fast with my hands off the steering wheel and it doesn’t move.

The car drives as stock with 14” of travel in the front and 12” in the rear, it has 7” of uptravel on a low lift which means I should be able to get a pretty good shock tune into it

View attachment 3436266

View attachment 3436265

Front and rear of the car seem to flex pretty evenly now. It probably doesn’t look massively impressive but that’s because I didn’t bias towards droop only.

View attachment 3436267

Love it!

 

[Broski]

My 80 I did basically this, if I remember correctly 280mm longer radius arms, flipped them somewhat to get away from the panhard and steering,

Retains factory 185mm bush seperation to keep controlled,

I triangulated them slightly out from chassis to axle to reduce roll steer and to clear the chassis on full bump,

I also raised the panhard approximately 50mm from its stock location and made it as long as possible to keep the arcs that the draglink and panhard travel as close as possible, I can go over speed bumps fast with my hands off the steering wheel and it doesn’t move.

The car drives as stock with 14” of travel in the front and 12” in the rear, it has 7” of uptravel on a low lift which means I should be able to get a pretty good shock tune into it

View attachment 3436266

View attachment 3436265

Front and rear of the car seem to flex pretty evenly now. It probably doesn’t look massively impressive but that’s because I didn’t bias towards droop only.

View attachment 3436267

What’s a low lift In numbers ?

 

[JoeCova]

Perhaps just the 3 link itself if a guy does all his own work and retains the stock coil/shock set up. No matter the coils or coil overs, with a 3 link, high steer is a requirement and doing that right is where the money is.

There are a couple guys who frequent mud and tough trail situations ,possibly the toughest, that we’ve seen 80’s forced to traverse, and they run radius arms in the stock location. I can’t remember their mud handles at the moment but I’ve seen some videos. Their trucks have actual body damage caused by wheeling though…..

I debated 3-linking the 80 but realized there isn’t anywhere I’m going to take it that would specifically make things better with one. I ran every non-buggy trail in Moab and Colorado with an IFS truck and I’ll continue to run those trails in the 80. If I want something harder or need to beat up a car body I have a Jeep on 40s with a custom double-tri 4 link for all that.

 

[Neil826]

What’s a low lift In numbers ?

It’s like 2 - 2.5”
Still playing around with coil springs and adding things to the car

 

[Squeegee]

It’s like 2 - 2.5”
Still playing around with coil springs and adding things to the car

How do you cycle 7 inches of up travel with such a low frame height?

 

[Neil826]

How do you cycle 7 inches of up travel with such a low frame height?

Pushed more uptravel than standard,

The wider you have the shocks and the bumps the more greedy you can get with up as less axle and tire pivoting around it

Also good thing about coil overs is that you can use the dual rate and a stiffer lower coil prevent the tire fully stuffing the guard on full flex, but still go fully up when doing higher speed.

I most probably will need to chop the guards if I go to larger tire

 

[mudgudgeon]

Pushed more uptravel than standard,

The wider you have the shocks and the bumps the more greedy you can get with up as less axle and tire pivoting around it

Also good thing about coil overs is that you can use the dual rate and a stiffer lower coil prevent the tire fully stuffing the guard on full flex, but still go fully up when doing higher speed.

I most probably will need to chop the guards if I go to larger tire

I have a similar pic of my old 105 series.

2" lift, 4-5" lift shocks, shock mounts raised on the chassis by 60mm (2⅜"). Stock bump stops. 35" tyres (33" in pic).

Shìtty shadowy pic, but rear opposite tire is just about to unweight. Opposite front is stuffed. And on the bump stop.
Rear was binding up due to the sway bar.
You can see my RHS rockers and sliders if you look choose.
Low lift, maximised travel, maximised clearance to the body. This truck went places it shouldn't have.

This was done in a few hours, with some sceap pipe picked up at work.

Did similar with the front shock towers. Ran a holesaw through the mount, welded in some pipe, welded in the cut out mount.

 

[orangefarmer]

Old school for sure. This was done a lot in Australia before aftermarket arms were available.
I contemplated doing it on my 4"lifted hdj80.

This was discussed lots on outerlimits4x4 back in the day. I think clearance under the housing is the only real advantage.
It pushes the axle forward very slightly (12mm from memory).

There's no real change in articulation because you're still constrained by the same bush spacing, same bush orientation, locked into rigid brackets with bushes spaced at 8".
The reason Superior's superflex arms work so well is because the bushes at the diff go from being spaced horizontally, to vertically so the bushes act as a hinge as the axle and radius arms twist on articulation .
Looks like the product you linked is emulating Superior's design. (Although other OEM's have similar configuration in radius arm bush placement)

I remember the guy from Superior Engineering (cant think of his name ATM) being part of the chat and talking about bump steer, squat/anti squat etc and saying there's no real change in any of this, as the relationship between radius arm pivot on the frame, and centre of axle housing doesn't change.

@orangefarmer Issues sound like a mix of install issues, and ongoing changes without full understanding of the issues.

The concept works. Like anything, it needs to be done properly for sure.

I'm guessing @SNLC would do a WAY better job of install than the guy who built mine did. The problems that I had were mostly crappy build quality. I can understand someone wanting to do this in the hopes of fixing most lift-related issues, but if the kit is $900, and Delta arms are $900, I would just go with the Delta. This might just be from all of the crap that I went through, but I also like supporting neighbors. There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat, but I'm pretty happy whit my Delta's.

 

[mudgudgeon]

if the kit is $900, and Delta arms are $900, I would just go with the Delta. This might just be from all of the crap that I went through, but I also like supporting neighbors. There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat, but I'm pretty happy whit my Delta's.

Totally agree.

There is quite a bit of if work to do a faitly major mod like flipping arm.
For the average bloke to do a one off flip and think they are going to get everything perfect in one go takes a certain amount of arrogance or naivety.
Toyota has teams of engineers to do years of R&D for this stuff. Even DVS seems to have built multiple iterations of their arms and refined the design.

Not saying the average bloke had no hope of nailing something like this. For a sort of simple mod, there's a lot to consider. Lots to figure out, lots to miss or get not quite right.