Excessively underpowered 1HZ + poor fuel economy (2 Viewers)

[Leitrum3]

So I'm trying to get to the bottom of something with all of the various ways of driving and tuning these rigs for high passes. Since I have no pyrometer, I have no reading of EGT's, therefore I turned the fuel down. Now when I go up hills, I have much less smoke, but since I have the low powered 1HZ AND I can't hold 2nd manually, I have to either drive it in 3rd @ 1600-2200 rpm or drop way down to 1st @ 3000 rpm, depending on the length of the hill. In 1st there's no smoke and sometimes in 3rd there's no smoke, but at that low rpm under load up very long mountain passes, things are surely heating up. So, regarding the engine, which is best, considering my instruments to monitor the internals of the engine is practically nil? What about using the low range for the really big sections where the grade is over 10%?

The other half of this question is the tranny. I've mostly been dropping to 1st to go up passes since I thought that keeping rpm's up also keeps the tranny temps down. However, I had a quick 1500 ft climb yesterday that, when we arrived at the top, I could smell something odd. I stopped and checked it out and it was definitely coming from the bottom rear half of the car. It didn't smell burnt, but it did smell kind of sweet and like something was hot. I thought I'd check the tranny fluid and it was definitely low, as in, showing the low end of cold while idling, but its still correctly colored and doesn't smell bad directly. So, in 3000 miles I've lost a good amount of ATF but there are no leaks or drips around the tranny. Could it burn off due to the way I've been driving it? In other words, what I'm really trying to get at is, what's the best way to drive these steep passes given everything else about my car?

What I wouldn't give for an H150 right about now... What's the going rate on those things anyway?

 

[crushers]

seriously, if you can afford to install a 1HZ into a 80 then you can afford the pyro.
to be dead honest, with the hills you are describing, you are a complete fool not to have that pyro installed at the same time the engine went in. i can not believe some shop would install the diesel without recommending it as part of the package.
if you installed it yourself then a bit more research would have been prudent.
if you lug, you generate heat worse than reving.
being you have the auto then a auto fluid temp guage is the very next on the list of things to do. if the fluid is burning as you think then that tranny will be dead and quickly.

 

[IanB]

X2, get a pyro & tranny temp gauge ASAP. For under $200 shipped you can get 2 displays, an EGT probe and trans temp sender from here:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5

The parts that are going to break if you keep pushing your luck FAR exceed this cost. Then you can tailor your driving based on real info, rather than guesses.

 

[Leitrum3]

While I appreciate the urgency with which I need a pyrometer and trans temp gauges, and the opinion on the fact that I don't have them- this far into this thread I'm well aware of needing them. As it stands, I'm almost 1,000 miles from home and am looking for some practical suggestions to get me there given my situation. Installing the gauges will be the first thing I do when I get home.

 

[crushers]

don't lug, that creates excessive heat.
better a bit lower gear with a bit higher revs which will expel the hot gases from the engine quicker.
watch your water temp gauge, in Toyotas they a glorified idiot light. if you see it climbing then pull over and let the engine cool.

 

[Dougal]

With no turbo smoke is a very good indicator of how rich and hot you are running. If you get any, then back off.

It will be a slow trip home.

 

[Leitrum3]

Thanks for the suggestions, we definitely took it slow getting through the last major pass at Yosemite. Now that we're back to sea level things seem back to normal with not a trace of smoke and enough power to actually get up hills again. I think the lesson for me, besides getting some gauges, is to get a turbo or at least a 5 speed (or a working manual shift '2') before attempting a 5,000 mile road trip across the most mountainous terrain in the western half of N. America (not counting Alaska of course).

Next I think it's time for a tune up! Anyone have suggestions on where to get shims and a SST for a valve adjustment?

 

[roscoFJ73]

Thanks for the suggestions, we definitely took it slow getting through the last major pass at Yosemite. Now that we're back to sea level things seem back to normal with not a trace of smoke and enough power to actually get up hills again. I think the lesson for me, besides getting some gauges, is to get a turbo or at least a 5 speed (or a working manual shift '2') before attempting a 5,000 mile road trip across the most mountainous terrain in the western half of N. America (not counting Alaska of course).

Next I think it's time for a tune up! Anyone have suggestions on where to get shims and a SST for a valve adjustment?

If you had a good auto and a tranny cooler it would have been more bearable.

 

[Douglas S]

If you had a good auto and a tranny cooler it would have been more bearable.

What's wrong with the A442f? I'm not having any issues? Tranny cooler would be nice though...

 

[roscoFJ73]

What's wrong with the A442f? I'm not having any issues? Tranny cooler would be nice though...

Nothing that I know of but the way I read his posts he was having problems with the one he had.

 

[crushers]

we have had a few die from overheating ... an aux cooler and temp gauge is suggested as a good investment.

 

[Leitrum3]

Regarding the transmission, I'm a little confused at the moment about that. As far as automatics go, I've been told that what I've got in mine, a Rodney rebuilt hydraulic A442 with virtually no miles on it, is about as good as it gets (speaking hypothetically considering the issues I've had). Aside from not manually engaging in '2', it seems to otherwise work fine. The one time I thought I smelled something from the tranny, I started keeping an eye on it and what I learned was that it doesn't get hot. Ever. I thought maybe the fluid level was off so knowing it needs to be hot (and not just warm), 158-175F I think, I was trying to check the level every time we went up a big hill but it never got hot enough to get an accurate reading. I think it has something to do with both of these guys installed in it. The fluid still looks and smells perfect so I think I was just a little apprehensive since I don't have the ability to monitor from the inside. I may bring it by a shop before we finish our drive north and have them do a quick service just to make sure we have the right fluid level. I know Mudrak is up in Sonoma, our next stop. Any others worth suggesting between Santa Cruz and there? I don't know if Toyota would actually touch this thing and I'm sure it'd cost more than I'd really love to pay...

 

[roscoFJ73]

, I started keeping an eye on it and what I learned was that it doesn't get hot. Ever. I thought maybe the fluid level was off so knowing it needs to be hot (and not just warm), 158-175F I think, I was trying to check the level every time we went up a big hill but it never got hot enough to get an accurate reading. ...

Ive never heard of them having to be that hot before you can get an accurate reading. I would have thought a big hill or even a 10 minute drive in trafffic would be more than adequate to get it up to operating temps.

 

[Leitrum3]

Hmm, that's what I read in the FSM anyway. All I know is in the morning when it's cold it reads slightly above the upper line for cold but when it warms up, it doesn't quite make it to the lower line for hot yet seems closer the longer I drive it. Keeping in mind I have to drive with the least amount of stress on it and the engine so it's never pushed very hard. It's also only had the new fluid for 4k miles (filled from dry).

So, I figure I should just let an expert check the levels since I can't seem to sort it out. Frustrating as that's a pretty simple thing to do.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Are you looking a the engine temp gauge?

 

[Leitrum3]

Are you looking a the engine temp gauge?

I'm always monitoring it, yes. It gets about half way up within 2 minutes and typically just stays there unless I leave it parked for an exceptionally long time or it's very cold out.

 

[wrongway around]

i live in bc almost all my driving is in hills, everone else in the world seems to think that these tranies are bomb proof ,bs i say . bottom line you must run synthetic (higher heat freindly) external cooler (i run 2 in tandem with a fan on one of them. besides the rad cooler).i recomend an inline trany temp gauge (by the time the idiot light comes (302)on your well on your way to likely walking up the rest of the hill ).a pyro is also recomended specially if your running more fuel. and if your coming through bc stop by ateb in vancouver for a pre trip inspection (priceless). i have had a few cruisers and everyone has had temper mental tranies. my recent one was running hotter 260 max(then i would baby it) and would shutter on acelleration (mind you i have the motor turned right up with tweeks to pretty much everything). i just recently pulled my torque converter and had it tweeked locally (tcs $650)to see if that would work before i tried the wholesale v/b and yaho no more shutter (even when i line lock it and spin the 35' toyos ) still runs a little hot 230max (and i will still run her at 5500 rpm) i hope the rest of the trany holds up .but my trany guy says that is tottaly acceptable. all i can say is thank god that it takes forever (well months) to get an extreme v/b from outback aus.

 

[Leitrum3]

I thought I should come full circle with this thread and shed a little light on the conclusion of the trip. We drove a total of around 5500 miles, which is visible on the map here (though you need to zoom out to see all the markers): http://theopenplan.wordpress.com/waypoints/. In that time, I would say that I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do driving this rig. The reality is, there is an almost infinite amount of learning one can do regarding vehicles, maintenance, repair, driving in different terrain, at different elevations...Try as one might to learn as much as possible via the internet and IH8MUD, nothing replaces experience. Unfortunately my experience was not without some harder lessons. Everyone starts somewhere I guess...

Regarding the engine, I can conclude that it did get too hot on this trip in a couple of the passes, not because the fuel was turned way up, rather that it was tuned for sea-level (never smokes on hills down here) and I don't have an HAC (and didn't know to de-tune soon enough into the trip, as we climbed in elevation). It most definitely wasn't the first time it had been driven past it's EGT limit though, confirmed by Tor driving it before and after the trip. His assessment went along with Tony in Kamloops that it feels underpowered compared to other 1HZ's they had driven. I continued to turn down the fuel as we went along our way, making all attempts at eliminating any trace of smoke since I'm still naturally aspirated driving at whatever speed I could that kept a high rpm and low load on the engine. Regardless, it seemed as though what damage or weakness was there at the start of the trip more fully presented itself by the end. We stopped at Kevin Rowland's on our way back into Oregon to check out his on-going 1HZ rebuild and being the nice guy he is, after we got to talking about my rig offered to help me do a compression test. The numbers we came up with from 1-6 were as follows: 540, 460, 560, 560+, 560, 550. There was some confusion as to the actual numbers on number 2 as we had a little trouble with the test nozzle, but we went ahead and put some oil in the cylinder and the number jumped to 490 or so (can't remember the exact number). Bummer. Also, since it's getting colder now in Portland, I've also started to have some pretty rough starts, regardless of glowing twice. It actually feels a lot like my old 3B...

A side note on the engine, I've also noticed some major mud or "sludge" buildup in my coolant overflow so I'll need to do a flush and hopefully nothing more!

Regarding the transmission, the fluid level was definitely low, but not for the same reasons I thought. The tranny sat dry for years and when it was first filled to full, it was actually still low (probably due to some air pockets or something...). It was only by the fact that I was a nervous about impending disaster that I was certain it needed checking over. I added some more fluid and to this day, a couple months later, the fluid still looks and smells perfect and the level is dead on. However, that still doesn't alter the fact that manually shifting to '2' doesn't hold. Unfortunately, this could've made the biggest difference on the trip going up the passes... Per the service manual for Chassis and Body HZJ80's, page AT-23, mine fails the 2 Range Test, but it doesn't say what to do if this happens! So, I'm all ears. I even wrote to Wholesale Automatics but no response.

So in conclusion, now that I'm moving into a place with a garage, I'll probably be rebuilding the engine this spring, adding a turbo, AND AN EGT! While the cost of rebuilding is not insignificant, I've always wanted the opportunity and everything I've read from Kevin's thread tells me this is a great engine to work on. I don't know if I could've prevented the way things turned out, I'm sure it would've happened anyway just maybe a little later on down the road. But hey, it could've been worse. As it is, I still have a perfectly rebuildable engine! Thanks for everyone's help in getting me back home in mostly one piece. I'll be sure to start a new thread when it comes time to rebuild.

Leit


Photo below is from our first stop in California, outside of Bishop.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Good write up. One piece of advice .It could be the fuel pump that is the cause of your lack of power.The rotary fuel pumps only have a 300000klm lifespan on average. Once they lose pressure ,they can not squeeze enough fuel through the injector.
If the pump is worn ,a rebuilt motor wil not have much more power than the one you have. Injection pumps and engine compression are equal partners when it come to making power.

The 490psi you got on number 2 would not be huge worry to me,I certainly wouldnt be looking at a rebuild till it got worse.
Or I might be tempted to re-ring that cylinder only,you might get quite a few years out of it.
Then go ahead with the turbo.
And when(or if) the engine ever needs a rebuild ,you still have the turbo ready to put back on.

Have you checked the glow plugs? I tend to think with good glow plugs and the compression figures you have ,it should start easy.

 

[Leitrum3]

The 490psi you got on number 2 would not be huge worry to me,I certainly wouldnt be looking at a rebuild till it got worse.

Have you checked the glow plugs? I tend to think with good glow plugs and the compression figures you have ,it should start easy.

I haven't done much since we got back into town 9 months ago, don't really even drive all that often since it's easier to take mass transit to work (besides who would want to commute for a desk job in this?!). However, in the little that I do drive, I'm starting to pick up on some changes with the engine. Through the summer months, it actually started really well, but now that I'm back to needing plugs (which I've tested and all work), it's getting rougher. Even after driving somewhere and parking for a few minutes it's a rougher start. And a lot more "loping" sounds and odd/new vibrations in certain rpms.

I did a compression test again the other day to check things out. I have a terrible harbor freight compression tester so I don't trust anything other than the numbers relative to each other, but here's what I got:
610
525
610
620
625
610

That said, #2 @ 525 took a very long time to get to max compression. If I had been doing the test where you turn them all over the same amount of times, it would've been closer to 300.

Rebuild, along with fuel pump and injectors, will start soon.

On another note, I'm still trying to sort out some transmission woes and I've posted up about pulling the VB and what I found in the 80 forum here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-...into-2nd-when-manually-shifting-into-2-a.html