do you solder or crimp?

[Moby]

So....Mr natural, I use crimp connections that then soldered and then shrink wrapped. So are you saying that the soldering step is a waist of my time or even WORSE? Resin core and all, enguiring minds need to know!

Unless you have a crimp terminal that is already tinned it is going to be harder, not impossible but harder, to make a quality soldered joint. If the terminal is shiney it isn't tinned; most of the pre-insulated crimp terminals out there aren't tinned because they aren't intended to be soldered.

When I do crimp and solder (which I used to do all the time) I use non insulated terminals that are tinned by the manufacturer. Crimp, solder and then get two layers of adhesive shrink wrap, one longer than the other, to help protect the joint. I can't remember the last time I did one of these those, once you have a good quality crimper and AMP PIDG terminals the process is so much easier and the end result is stronger and just as corrosion resistant (when properly crimped).

 

[rusty_tlc]

I crimp everything. I use a tool similar to this one and love it. I've had 'real' crimping tools with the different guage sizes in it, but this is the best and easiest one I've found.

I use a similar tool made by Klien, but this style requires experience and practice to make good crimps, the ratchet type are better for most people.

Unless you have a crimp terminal that is already tinned it is going to be harder, not impossible but harder, to make a quality soldered joint. If the terminal is shiney it isn't tinned; most of the pre-insulated crimp terminals out there aren't tinned because they aren't intended to be soldered.

When I do crimp and solder (which I used to do all the time) I use non insulated terminals that are tinned by the manufacturer. Crimp, solder and then get two layers of adhesive shrink wrap, one longer than the other, to help protect the joint. I can't remember the last time I did one of these those, once you have a good quality crimper and AMP PIDG terminals the process is so much easier and the end result is stronger and just as corrosion resistant (when properly crimped).

The key words are "properly crimped".

 

[lostmarbles]

Wow. Who would have thought such a topic would generate this much discussion?

Obviously most of us have experimented with both methods.

I don't think I'll change because I've never experienced any problems associated with my crimp-then-solder method (with heat-shrink sleeving too).

But I respect decisions to go either way.

Except I must add that I'd be very wary of relying on a soldered joint that hasn't been physically joined first (by "crimping so the wires are difficult to pull out" or by "twisting together tightly" in the case of a wire-to-wire joint).

Solder is very soft and I see its purpose more as "protecting the mechanical/electrical joint from water and oxygen" than "providing any mechanical bond. But of course it does that too.

I suspect "failure to provide any mechanical bond first" is the main reason that soldered joints have failed in automotive applications.

And it is quite true that solder is useless near an exhaust manifold/pipe.

And I don't drive in salt water and we don't have salt spread on our roads in winter. (But I would expect salt to harm the copper itself as well as harming solder so crimped joints shouldn't be exempt from salt damage.)

 

[rusty_tlc]

Wow. Who would have thought such a topic would generate this much discussion?

Obviously most of us have experimented with both methods.

I don't think I'll change because I've never experienced any problems associated with my crimp-then-solder method.

But I respect desicions to go either way.

Except I must add that I'd be very wary of soldering any joint that hasn't been physically joined first (by "crimping so the wired are difficult to pull out" or "twisted together tightly" in the case of a wire-to-wire joint).

And it is quite true that solder is useless near an exhaust manifold/pipe.

And I don't drive in salt water and we don't have salt spread on our roads in winter. (But I would expect salt to harm the copper itself as well as harming solder so crimped joints shouldn't be exempt from damage due to salt.

Sorry, I get passionate about my work. Electronics is what I have been doing for 8 (or more) hours a day, 5 or 7 days a week for many many years. Everything from technician to project engineer.

I don't expect to change the minds of any of those who are set in their ways, but lots of peeps come here to learn. I hope I can share my experience with them.

 

[lostmarbles]

Sorry, I get passionate about my work. Electronics is what I have been doing for 8 (or more) hours a day, 5 or 7 days a week for many many years. Everything from technician to project engineer.

I don't expect to change the minds of any of those who are set in their ways, but lots of peeps come here to learn. I hope I can share my experience with them.

And thanks for doing so. (This thread would be worth much less if you hadn't.)

Cripes. I hope I don't come across as trying to "win" here.

In fact I think there are no "winners" and both methods can achieve satisfactory results if done properly.

Promoting seemingly-opposing viewpoints is what MUD is all about. (It's called healthy discussion.)



PS. My poor choice of words (like using the word "propaganda") was just me "getting carried away with the discussion" - Sorry. My experience is that often when new things are introduced - (like "crimp fittings back in the 60s or whenever it was) - it is usually accompanied by advertising blurb claiming advantages - and only some of them tend to be valid.

 

[malcb]

I don't think it is true to say automotive applictions don't use solder joints.

I have just finished extending a VW/Audi Coil On Plug loom from 4 to 6 cylinders (guess why ).

In the loom there were multiple connections soldered with "hot melt filled" heatshrink. I did the same to extend it and added a Deutsch weaterproof connector. 9 wires in the loom, +12V power, power ground, signal ground and the six triggers.

Key with the factory joints is all the wires were all formed into a single loom, contained within a plastic conduit and the shielded with an aluminum foil material. No flexing was required so it's just heat and vibration that the loom will be exposed to. The heat shrink extended well past where the solder penetrated the cores.

I had expected the connections in the heatshrink to be crimp type and was going to do the same, for all the reasons above. As a point of reference when soldered connections were favoured in LV switchboard control systems (quite some years ago but I would bet very few have failed even now) the installation methods were very different to now, wire gauges were two to three time heavier and the looms were "laced" into a rigid mass and the meters and controls were twice the size they are now.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

For stranded wire a proper crimp connection is more reliable than a soldered connection.
This is not opinion, it is fact based on studies conducted by NASA, IPC and JEDEC.

You will not find a single soldered wire connection in any production vehicle manufactured today. EVERY wire connection in the space shuttle or any satellite and EVERY wire connection in any military airplane, ship, boat or ground vehicle is a crimp connection.

Why soldered connections fail:

The solder binds the wire strands together and does not let them flex.
Solder contains flux which is corrosive, it wicks into the wire under the insulation and cannot be cleaned.​

Do yourself a favor and learn how to make a proper crimp connection.
Get a good pair of crimper's and the correct connectors to go with them. If you pick up the multi pack at Autozone and use their POS crimper you will have s*** connections. Panduit, Greenlee, and Amp all make good crimp tools.

I'm a journeyman electronics technician. I've been professionally wiring communications equipment for 28 years. I have crimped and/or soldered thousands upon thousands of connections. Many of these are in harsh environments - rain and/or spray from seawater.

Given a choice, and given the time, I prefer to crimp AND solder, or splice and solder. My soldered connections don't corrode and don't fail. That's been proven for 28 years. During that time I've seen a good many connections made by others fail. Almost always they are crimp connections, but I've seen sloppy solder joints fail too. (BTW, I've never had a joint fail from corrosion caused by rosin core solder. Acid core solder must be absolutely avoided for any electrical work.)

Proper, consistent soldering is not something most people can quickly master. It takes some practice... and patience. The biggest problems are cold solder joints, using too much solder, using too small of an iron, and applying too much heat, and often a combination of these.

The larger the iron (wattage) the faster the joint can be heated. A smaller iron will require more contact time to prevent a cold solder joint, and will cause heat to travel further up the wire(s), melting or burning insulation. If the solder joint is done quickly to prevent melting of wires, the joint may be too cold. The smaller irons and/or tips are great for circuit boards, but not for general wiring, particularly automotive.

Too much solder can help cause cold solder joints when used in conjunction with a small iron. It takes a lot of heat to keep a large blob of solder fluid, and this can not only cause cold joints but can melt insulation. It can also cause excess solder to capillary up wires, making them stiffer and more prone to breakage.

I put a small amount of solder on a freshly cleaned tip, then apply heat to the joint or connector Additional solder is NOT applied to the iron tip. It is applied to the joint or connector, and when the joint or connector is hot enough, the solder will melt and flow. Only enough solder to make the joint solid is used. Any more and it will capillary up the wires.

Depending on where the connector is used, it may or may not be insulated. Plastic insulation on crimp connectors will not survive soldering, so I cut it off before soldering and use heat shrink tubing. I don't like wrapping with electrical tape if possible, but sometimes this must be done with some connections, especially taps. For automotive use, I always insulate the splices or connectors.

I realize the aerospace, aviation and automotive manufacturers use crimp connections instead of soldering. Economics plays a big role here. In most cases, they are also using connectors that are of a far better design and far better quality than the hobbiest is going to use.

From a hobbiest standpoint, who should solder? Those who can. Who should use crimps? Those who can't solder. My feeling is that if at all possible, solder your connections. (I'm not saying everyone who uses crimps can't solder. Don't read more into this than what I wrote. If you can make a crimp that will last and not fail from corrosion, then this doesn't apply to you.) If you must crimp, follow rusty tlc's advice and get a quality crimp tool, not a cheap piece of crap. Don't go budget here.

I recently wired up two jeep trailers. The wiring harnesses are temporary. I soldered them instead of using crimp connectors anyway.

 

[pappy]

Great discussion. I'm not an expert. Personally, I use a little dab of solder on my connectors and shrink tube. I prefer roll-over crimp connectors, but they are near impossible to find in anything other than spades and Weatherpac-type connectors. All of the Weatherpac connectors in my FJ40 have a small dab of solder. It takes more time, but my labor is free.

There are solder sleeve/shrink tube connectors and I like those. You just can't get them too hot, just enough to flow the solder.

 

[rsbcruiser]

Rusty, Brian, all you'all (you know who you are), this here is what makes this site such a powerfull tool, arguments offered without expectations of any benifit except the sharing of experience and knowledge. Thank you guys, much!

 

[steverb]

i do both but when i do crimp i use a ratcheting crimper.so i now i have a proper crimp.

 

[Gumby]

I have mad crimpin' skillz. The secret is keeping the crimp hand strong.

Good crimping pliers. The dedicated kind. Separate good strippers and crimp pliers.

I <3 good strippers.


It depends on what I'm doing if I crimp or solder.

I also have a nice Weller solder gun and always use good solder.

 

[M5driver]

I don't think I'll change because I've never experienced any problems associated with my crimp-then-solder method (with heat-shrink sleeving too).

Tom, we must've been separated at birth This sounds just like me.

OTOH, I understand Rusty_tlc's point of view and respect his experience. But, I'm a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy, so I use a ratcheting crimper(or a WU splice), then a spot of solder, sort of like Brian in Oregon describes. Plus heat shrink tube. So far, so good

 

[Adventure Teq]

If you know it's gonna get wet I'd solder and heat shrink. If it's inside the dash or something I'd crimp and heat shrink. Or whatever I happen to have on hand at the time and have the time for.

Soldering and heat shrinking is best IMO.

 

[bandy rooster]

wow thanks everybody... didn't think i'd push so many peoples buttons lol

 

[Brian in Oregon]

i do both but when i do crimp i use a ratcheting crimper.so i now i have a proper crimp.

Bingo. A quality crimp tool. Not a cheapo piece of crap.

 

[lostmarbles]

wow thanks everybody... didn't think i'd push so many peoples buttons lol

I sincerely hope you're not trying to shut this thing down Mr Bandy Rooster!

I've just got out of bed and been dying to get back into this solder/crimp discussion again.

But seriously - I think everything is pretty well covered now except for some photos from the "solder lobby group".

Here are the wire strippers I use. Without a tool like this you will have more difficulty avoiding cutting into (and thus damaging/weakening) strands of wire when removing insulation from the ends of your wires:



And here is the soldering iron I use. It is inexpensive but the current flows directly through the tip that I use for soldering. So it reaches hot soldering temperatures fast. And despite the tip being so small - it gets hot enough (and has enough power) to be able to accomplish the soldering task fast enough that the solder doesn't "wick up the strands" to any significant extent and neither does it tend to melt much insulation:



And here are some of the brass "connections" I use (with some insulating sleeves). Most here are "bullet-type" connectors and I admit I do find it hard to get good brass "connectors" in NZ.

I prefer "clean brass" because I know solder just loves to stick to it. (I would be reluctant to try to solder some of the crimp connectors I have because the metal does not look to me like solder would "take to it" very well. ....... But you never know, if I tried I could be pleasantly surprised.):

 

[lostmarbles]

Just a couple more photos.

Here is a selection of heat shrink sleeving:



And here are a couple of soldered joints I have done. (They are by no means perfect as they weren't done for the camera. They were just lying there in my tin of soldering/wiring stuff.)



They should of course have heat shrink sleeving over the top.

 

[pbgbottle]

Hey! steve .where did you pick this crimper up from . anywhere local .surrey langley .????? i need a good one . this thread is awsome .

i do both but when i do crimp i use a ratcheting crimper.so i now i have a proper crimp.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

For stranded wire a proper crimp connection is more reliable than a soldered connection.
This is not opinion, it is fact based on studies conducted by NASA, IPC and JEDEC.

You will not find a single soldered wire connection in any production vehicle manufactured today. EVERY wire connection in the space shuttle or any satellite and EVERY wire connection in any military airplane, ship, boat or ground vehicle is a crimp connection.

Why soldered connections fail:

The solder binds the wire strands together and does not let them flex.
Solder contains flux which is corrosive, it wicks into the wire under the insulation and cannot be cleaned.​

Do yourself a favor and learn how to make a proper crimp connection.
Get a good pair of crimper's and the correct connectors to go with them. If you pick up the multi pack at Autozone and use their POS crimper you will have **** connections. Panduit, Greenlee, and Amp all make good crimp tools.

As I posted earlier solder will not allow for flex in the connection, flux is corrosive. Even rosin.

Most rosin flux is RMA (rosin mildly active) it can be used for solid wire and printed circuit board assembly with little or no cleaning for consumer products. For automotive and other applications it must be removed from the assembly after the soldering is complete.

Get a good pair of good ratchet crimper's. They automatically set the correct crimp pressure. If you go cheap with the crimp tool you'll get **** connections.

I use the Buss heat shrink crimp connectors from NAPA. Crimp it, hit it with the heat gun and your done.

Wow. Who would have thought such a topic would generate this much discussion?

Obviously most of us have experimented with both methods.

I don't think I'll change because I've never experienced any problems associated with my crimp-then-solder method (with heat-shrink sleeving too).

But I respect decisions to go either way.

Except I must add that I'd be very wary of relying on a soldered joint that hasn't been physically joined first (by "crimping so the wires are difficult to pull out" or by "twisting together tightly" in the case of a wire-to-wire joint).

Solder is very soft and I see its purpose more as "protecting the mechanical/electrical joint from water and oxygen" than "providing any mechanical bond. But of course it does that too.

I suspect "failure to provide any mechanical bond first" is the main reason that soldered joints have failed in automotive applications.

And it is quite true that solder is useless near an exhaust manifold/pipe.

And I don't drive in salt water and we don't have salt spread on our roads in winter. (But I would expect salt to harm the copper itself as well as harming solder so crimped joints shouldn't be exempt from salt damage.)

Rusty_tlc and lostmarbles,
First of all from all of us who may have been lurking in the backgroud during this discussion, thank you. I have read this thread through three times now, just taking notes and going back to make sure I got the pros and cons of each position. I compliment you guys and all of the other participants on the high level of the debate and discussion on this topic. It really has been useful to me in helping me better understand the reasons behind why I have been doing a lot of learned practices and why some of those practices ( and my tools) need a long overdue upgrade.
Like Ms-Driver I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy deep down so I think that I will go the crimp-solder-heat shrink route from now on BUT now being much more mindful of my soldering technique to avoid some of the issues that you guys have highlighted. Once again, I sat down just to peruse and catch-up with the goings on at Mud only to later be taking notes and making plans after being here. It has been said many times before this site really is unique in the sincerity, knowledge and passion of its members and their openess to sharing it all with their brethren (and sisteren???) in this cruiser addiction.

 

[ontherox]

So would the experts here have anything to say about my personal technique??