Do others speak out on land issues or not?

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

X2 Greg!

 

[Biscuit]

I'll give Greg's post a x3. Thanks.

 

[LukeZero]

Pardon the profrainity but:

Hasn't it become obvious that most of us out west don't know what the f*** and who the f*** you are talking about so save us a buch of grief and tell us so we can understand and possibly get involved like you want or SHUT THE F**K UP

Jesus, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we want to know what you are talking about and are sympathetic, but cannot do anything without specifics. I don't know who you are talking about, I don't know what you are talking about. The only thing I know about Michigan is that the Red Wings suck...so please educate me and everyone else by giving specifics. If not see the phrase in caplital letters above.

I wouldn't have said it quite so harshly, but it summarizes what I've been trying to say. Getting an understanding of what he (Michigan Chapter?) was trying to say was getting frustrating- I couldn't follow it, [and I have some graduate level training in Philosophy and Logic].

Luke

 

[wardfoto]

luke, that's your problem, and it's why you couldn't follow along.
your training is in "logic", which was rather notably absent in these discussions!!!
hehehehehe

 

[TUFFTORQ]

Ouch, I felt that WWF smack down all the way over here in CA. Very well written with a factual thought out approach. Can I get a replay? Two Thumbs Up!

Keep up the great work, BRC!

I don’t normally find myself in the habit of being goaded into responding to posts of this nature but, because John is misrepresenting the truth, I am making an exception in this case. The efforts and reputations of good people and good organizations are not something I take lightly.

This person’s name is John Stears.

Just so the record is straight, I believe that John here is referring to me in his post when he says “your former leader” (not sure where he got that terminology). I am the one who sent him the “un-apologetic” email. I’ve pasted the full and actual content of the complete email to John below for your perusal. It was sent in response to not a single email but a spamming of inflammatory emails to the BlueRibbon Coalition and to me. And that was after a phone call to him that lasted for well over an hour listening to and trying to understand his concerns. As you can see from its content, the only accuracy to his above statements is that it was in fact intended to be “un-apologetic” and “dismissive”.

John,

With regard to the NOHVCC conference, BRC is also very involved with this effort. I already pointed the Oct. 2 mistake to NOHVCC. The actual deadline date for registration is Oct. 18. They simply have not had the time to get that corrected. The folks at NOHVCC are sincere in what they are doing with these workshops, they are open and free to the entire public and do not fit in your latest little “conspiracy theory”. They simply had a date carried over from the SD workshops that inadvertently didn’t get changed to the 18th in the document announcing the Michigan workshop.

With regard to your “conspiracy theory” and your demands for our actions, BlueRibbon Coalition is not in the habit of publicly chastising good folks who are well representing their OHV constituents. Contrary to your allegations, we do stand up and are standing up for the people we represent and will continue to do so.

I have done a lot of research into your accusations and with the situation in Michigan as a whole. I can find a lot of positive effort on the part of many of the folks you criticize (many of whom are our members). Contrary to that, not only can I not find where you are a member of BlueRibbon Coalition or have been in the last four years (as you have claimed both to me and in internet forums) but I cannot seem to find where you have been involved in any of the positive efforts. I can find however, where you incessantly criticize and at that, in every possible venue you can. All of this has led me to recognize there is a definite lack of credibility to your allegations and I question the motives behind your obstructionism.

Being an armchair critic is not effective John. As you are finding, it makes enemies and generates a loss of credibility. Attempting, at least, to be an armchair advocate would be far more valuable. I encourage you to lead, follow or get out of the way… there is much to be done and you are not helping.

Kindly also stop spamming the emails of the BlueRibbon Coalition.

Sincerely,

Greg Mumm
Executive Director, BlueRibbon Coalition

Please also note (for your information) that in addition to the plethora of emails I and others in the BRC and NOHVCC have received, below are similar inflammatory threads from this person from three other internet forums that I am aware of. I am not sure of his agenda but would certainly welcome you to decide for yourself.

http://forums.atvconnection.com/messageview.cfm/catid/24/threadid/473974/STARTPAGE/1.cfm Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Blackballed” in this thread

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-200688.html Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “The Bottom Line” in this thread


http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/foru.../8969-so-who-belongs-tlca.html?highlight=tlca Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Kzoocruiser” in this thread.

Incidentally, for those of you who live in and around Michigan, the conferences around which John builds some of his “conspiracy theorys” are very important to be involved in.

NOVHCC has put together an excellent national workshop series sponsored by the the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC), the Specialty Vehicle Institute of America (SVIA) and Americans for Responsible Recreational Access (ARRA). Coordination of all workshops is by the NOHVCC. Design of the workshop sessions was a collective effort by professional trail consultants, ARRA, MIC, SVIA, American Motorcyclist Association (AMA), Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC), United Four Wheel Drive Associations (UFWDA), and NOHVCC, with input from USFS trail managers.

These workshops have some very good content for the purpose of educating folks on how to get involved in the Travel Management Rule. This first workshop in the state of Michigan is taking place in Michigan’s UP and a second one is currently being scheduled for just after the first of the year.

If you want more information, send me an email and I will get you the details.

Greg

 

[Sean K.]

I think it's pretty obvious why MichiganChapter? couldn't get any answer from anyone......he can't make a point.

I'm not a TLCA member. I'm not a TLC owner (although I am considering one)......just a 4 wheeling enthusiast that has wheeled in OK, CA, NM, CO, UT and lives in AZ......I have NO IDEA what the hell you are talking about in Michigan and if you don't provide that information, very few people here will be able to help you with your problem.

If Greg hadn't been so kind as to fill us in, we STILL wouldn't know WTF you were talking about. You mention having the "stones" to state this or that, yet can't even muster the same to give us your name and exactly what it is you have a problem with. Regardless, it looks like you got your answer from Greg. I hope that solves your problem. Best of luck to you.....you obviously need it.

Sean

 

[MichiganChapter?]

My very simple and direct questions to "Greg" and others in similar positions on the national level have not been hard to understand. They involve orv leadership and upcoming issues here in Michigan that they are also very familiar with involving very soon literally tens of millions of dollars.(funny how the largest system in this nation somehow 'evades the radar' of those asking us to send money in to protect same).

Would these questions peak YOUR interest?

....why are the only publicly held meetings orv meetings in this state being cancelled for up to 6 months at a time and the minutes published 8 weeks afterwards only after someone like myself demands that they see the light of day?

....if the orv community is 'forced' by (cough) 'the DNR' to have less audiences each year with both our 'leaders' and their own arrogant leadership (than even the part-time snowmobilers are granted each year)....why can't the orv community at least pitch in to get back the official stenographer we lost at the same time? (how many times do you think we've caught these people denying they said anything at these one-way-we-do-the talking public meetings when questioned....and how many times have they refused to answer any of our questions when we are only/finally given the right to speak EVERY 3 MONTHS?).

....why do "I" have to contact both the state DNR and National Forest Service about publicly announcing the same workshops they themselves are attending on their websites....especially after the workshop sponsor rudely informs me that national orv leadership cannot FORCE these same people to do anything?
For pete's sake, people...we all know that national orv leadership seeks to perpetually stick their head in the sand when it comes to the "me-only" vs true multi-use for everybody debate....yet when these arrogant Michigan cyclists announce that you and I will pay for impact studies carving out huge chunks of our forest land for themselves and themselves only....can you now see why I finally had to make the darn phone call to our government employees when nobody else obviously would? (even AFTER being informed of both the exclusionary incorrect date and the lack of public anoouncement in the proper place to begin with?).
And to add insult to injury....NOT A DAMN ONE OF THEM KNEW WHAT THE WORKSHOP WAS TO INVOLVE OR WHAT WAS EVEN EXPECTED OF THEM WHEN I CALLED!

Would somebody please compare this kind of goat rodeo to California's obvious attempt to clearly outline and take the lead on their workshop...along with clearly stating that there would be "Q and A" time provided for all that took the time to come? What does the public deserve in the body of these announcements....some kind of regirgitated and generic "Koombuyah" on togetherness and cooperation for all...or an announcement that your local cycle chapter is seeking to close down a chunk of your national forest and that all interested MULTI-USE users had better darn well be there to give an opinion about it? (believe me, there are a good number of these forest service employees who don't necessarly agree with this pure arrogance either).

Again, we could get into the state's unannounced term extension of these AMA leaders; they're refusal to once again announce upcoming term expirations or get them filled anywhere near on time....and even the current board's refusal to simly publish their contact info like THE MEN on our snowmobile board have been more than willing to do for decades....amongst a host of other take-it-behind-the-scenes crap far to numerous to get into here.

The question is this:
Do you allow people to disparage the character of all comers using the perverted reasoning of protecting 'the community' from 'division'....or do you take a hard long look at those protecting those who have sought to divide this community for literally decades with their "we-ride-yours-and-'ours only'-too"...attitude.

I'm sorry, but you can't play both sides of the fence.
And believe me, what happens here in Michigan with this multi-million dollar/thousands of trail miles funding proposal in the works...will (unfortunately) prove just that.

 

[woody]

all your bolding, underlining, capitalizing, quoting and italicizing makes for some s***ty reading...

no wonder no one pays attention to you....your ability to effectively and clearly communicate is pathetic

 

[woooody]

Your original question has been answered by Greg Mumm.

Greg is TLCA's Land Use Rep, and he's on the Board of Blue Ribbon Coalition.

Turns out, Greg answered your questions.

Turns out, you aren't a TLCA member.

I'm not sure if you expect more attention because Michigan has "the largest" trail system or why you keep emphasizing that. California has to rank up there somewhere. Not sure how your numbers are determined.

You need to look locally. The TLCA forum isn't the place. Certainly, there are Michigan forums for this?

 

[woody]

Given your rants and soapbox posts on this and other forums, I almost hate to suggest another place for you to harass...

took 2 seconds to find one tho....4wd specific for Michigan even...

 

[LukeZero]

John- don't take this the wrong way.... but if ALL of your efforts, through multiple venues are not meeting your expectations.......

and again, don't take this wrong............ is it you?

I'm not being a smartass- the DNR, the BRC, TLCA, ih8mud, etc. are all decent organizations, run by decent people that are all trying to do their best. All are horribly underfunded, only hear criticisms from the constiuents they represent and you come along and if I were them, I wouldn't have time to deal with it.

Again, you obviously feel very strongly about this as evidenced by the strong manner in which you talk about it- but maybe you're a little too forceful for people to know how to deal with you.

Just my $.02. Take it or leave it.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"...I'm not being a smartass- the DNR, the BRC, TLCA, ih8mud, etc. are all decent organizations, run by decent people that are all trying to do their best. All are horribly underfunded, only hear criticisms from the constiuents they represent and you come along and if I were them, I wouldn't have time to deal with it...."

A 'decent organization' run by 'decent people' does not turn tail and run when questioned on even the simplest of manners involving my off-road dollars; who receives them and what each and every one of them do with that money on any given occassion.
Again, this is not how any one of you 'feel' about some orv leader evidently not man enough to return your phone call when promised nor the ones I've run into personally who shout you down/lie to your face about a documented request/right to speak that wastes your trip to the state capital....it's about one cyclist and one atver showing up to the only public meetings we have; the meeting AFTER an anonymous "22,000 member" group appears out of nowhere claiming 100% un-questioned ownership of the public's issues.

Yeah, Luke...every single one of these guys are 'decent'....just as long as folks like yourself give every one of them a 'pass' on every single legitimate question or issue that is ever raised involving MY dollars and just exactly who in the he11 wants to redistribute them to an already embarrasing subsidized training program (increasing $1 training subsidies to three...with all other critical percentages remaining the same?) or a "me-only-trail" club hoping nobody shows up at the forest service workshop questioning why big chunks of more of my money is being spent on trails that none of us will ever enjoy.

I'll define 'a man' as being someone who simply returns your phone call when promised instead of ignoring same while doing his damnest to dfisparage your character all over the internet (to avoid answeringi even ONE of the scores of questions you see listed above).

You define 'acting like a man' in any way that you would like.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

By the way, don't take my treatment by these myriad of "pay-no-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-curtain" local and national orv leaders as any kind of hint as to how any of you will be treated when your local leadership or money-related issues come up and you actually NEED one of these organizations that you send money into's HELP in simply taking care of their own.

Simply don't cross anybody or ask just why those speaking for us must remain "anonymous" when referring to anybody affiliated with any of the 'decent' organizations that Luke has mentioned above.....and I'm certain that you'll be just fine.

 

[woooody]

Your questions have been answered. I'll reiterate my feelings about you

1 - You are NOT a TLCA member. Therefore, none of "YOUR" dollars are being sent to BRC by US. You haven't contributed any dollars to us.

2 - Greg Mumm DID return your calls. You went awful quiet, and have failed to respond to his well written response.

3 - YOU need to find a forum that addresses your specific concern.

4 - you need to stop slandering people. Either change the song, or change the dance. But you are still harping on stuff that we (TLCA) have no control over. We aren't the groups that you feel are "anonymous". Every person affiliated with TLCA is listed on the BOD page. Every person involved with Blue Ribbon is listed on their BOD page. The groups I think you are pissed at aren't those. IF they are, restate your case.

5 - No one affiliated with TLCA has "turned and run". You've taken far too much of our time, especially considering YOUR attempts at trying to stay anonymous.

Now -- Your questions on TCLA's involvement with Land Use have been answered. We are involved, and we do provide funding to Blue Ribbon Coalition ($5000 in 2006) as well as the Friends of the Rubicon (Rubithon donated directly to Del Albright). We do this, because those groups do work that directly benefits our members, and the trails they use. Rising Sun, a TLCA chapter, works with a group that is directly involved with Moab.

Here's a question for you -- You mention "your money". I have to presume that you are talking about taxes, but maybe it's use fees.
What money have you given directly to a group?
Have you supported TLCA by joining?
Have you supported Blue Ribbon by joining?

If you can't answer yes to either of those last two, why should you have a say in how WE spend our member's money?

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Since every local, state and national orv organization out there didn't dare go against the all-powerful "AMA" on this huge issue involving thousands of (cough) "shared trail" mileage sponsored by a major manufacturer http://www.ama-d14.org/news.php?
http://www.ama-d14.org/news.php?id=24 ...will organizations such as the TLCA be forced to keep their mouths shut once again also when our fellow full-sizers 'dare' go up against the Forestry department and arrogant motorcyclists below?
http://www.ufwda.org/pdfs/APPEAL_HMNF_legalappeal.pdf (bottom of page 6; top of page 7) http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/measures/Inventory/trails files/Trail_Definition.doc (top of the page).


As in the Ocala 'pay-to-play' issue....isn't this yet ANOTHER issue where our national orv organizations are forced to deny the "shared trails" concept even when same is amended into LAW...at the obvious expense of folks such as the UFWDA or all those in Michigan who saw the concept of proper width 60" trails back-door defeated in less than 26 hours?

Looks like the UFWDA will have to 'go it alone' on this one.....

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Isn't it amazing how the BRC, NOHVCC, and all these other 'representative' groups demanding our money each year...portray these workshops that they schedule literally a few weeks after their announcements....as nothing but 'better understanding' affairs for those of us out here in the peon orving public much to 'stupid' to do anything but write a renewal check...
....while blatantly ILLEGAL width descriptions affecting our very accesss to these same lands (above) and even more blatantly arrogant "me-only-trail" land grabs by the untouchable motorcycling community in these same forests....go not only uncommented on before these meetings....but are certainly left OUT of any and all discussions at the 'educational' workshops themselves?

It sure does seem that there's A LOT out there that some folks don't seem very damn comfortable talking about right now....

 

[Biscuit]

For those of you just joining the fun...if you put MichiganChapter? on your ignore list this thread makes a lot more sense.

 

[woooody]

I'm glad I'm going to be at Surf-n-Turf in Pismo this weekend. I won't have to follow this thread for a few days.

If there are any TLCA members in Michigan that have questions, there are plenty of people willing to help.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"...If there are any TLCA members in Michigan that have questions, there are plenty of people willing to help...."

Wouldn't the question for TLCA members in Michigan be the following (?):

How will the TLCA, BRC, NOHVCC and all these other national organizations out there with their hands out claiming to fight for ALL of our "shared trail" rights...fight tooth and nail alongside the UFWDA on this groundbreaking issue http://www.ufwda.org/ (see the far left column under "Manistee National Forest" and specifically bottom of page 6; top of page 7) when some anonymous "22,000 member" council running the show here is obviously 100% against same?
http://www.ama-d14.org/news.php?id=23
http://www.ama-d14.org/news.php?id=24

.....and I'm supposed to look into forming a TLCA chapter here in Michigan because they will support me in what way?
...or will my new club receive the same treatment as Polaris did when they boldly came here to Michigan seeking to finally clean up this mess (above) and finally build a here-to-before-unseen environmentally sound system with modern equipment equipped properly maintained trails?

Tell me something....should the UFWDA simply 'ignore' the several year old 60" statute when it affects them in these route designation workshops and more importantly in our negotiations with the Forestry service over multi-use trails....or should folks in Michigan start witholding their damn dues money from arrogant orv national leadership until some point in time such that said leadership ceases kissing these cyclist's butts at the expense of 'shared trail' access to our forestry lands?

About all I can say further is to just 'wait' for a local issue to come up in your area that involves one of these guys and somebody that they enjoyed a long wrote-off non-profit weekend OHV conference/vacation with....and see what satisfaction YOU get when somebody needs to get their feelings hurt for the good of a 'communty' out here that is anything but.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"..2 - Greg Mumm DID return your calls...."

Sorry, pal....I talked to Greg Mumm once in my life like a man...on the phone... in regards to all of this mess. As with everybody else you talk to; Greg claimed to know very little as to what I was talking about here in Michigan at the largest maintained trail system in this country.

I gave him my number and haven't heard from him since the no-questions-answered "look at how I can write p.c." response he e-mailed and then decided to publish here as some kind of proof that he tackles the tough questions 'head-on'.

How many leaders do you think I've run into over the years that had this exact same response when simply questioned about this community's general direction and overall stated public position on obvious 'shared trail' or even 'pay-to-play' issues?