Do others speak out on land issues or not?

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"...Perhaps you should consider running for a board position with one of these organizations..."

Questioning the actions of native Michigan board members in these national organizations has been 'taboo' since the last fiasco involving leadership here in-state was defined as 'complicated' by these same people. These groups have obviously had no problem historically electing board members preaching the "me-only" vs "shared trails" concept for years (see their most recent land grab in the Hiawatha National Forest) while we send money in expecting 100% support for the latter.(not support for some arrogant 'sub-group' within the light OHV category who obviously feel some kind of inalienable right to massive amounts of our limited multi-use mileage).

Non-profit board members don't like talk of how other non-profits operate outside of government mandaded limitations; which is the case here in Michigan with these anonymous "22,000 member" council. I would never be connected with any board which condoned these closed/back door antics of their members and feel that very simple questions involving how these people have operated to date is the only very well spelled out issue here.
 
I would never be connected with any board which condoned these closed/back door antics of their members and feel that very simple questions involving how these people have operated to date is the only very well spelled out issue here.

Ok time to "put up or shut up". Everyone who has made it this far in this thread have read your arguments.

If you don't like how an organization is run...get involved to change it. Don't sulk around this board doing nothing but bitching. I frankly don't give a crap if you get involved with any organization or not...that's your choice. I just don't want to hear about your lack of balls to get involved for something you obviously are passionate about.

Life sucks, get a helmet.
 
Questioning the actions of native Michigan board members in these national organizations has been 'taboo' since the last fiasco involving leadership here in-state was defined as 'complicated' by these same people. These groups have obviously had no problem historically electing board members preaching the "me-only" vs "shared trails" concept for years (see their most recent land grab in the Hiawatha National Forest) while we send money in expecting 100% support for the latter.(not support for some arrogant 'sub-group' within the light OHV category who obviously feel some kind of inalienable right to massive amounts of our limited multi-use mileage).

Non-profit board members don't like talk of how other non-profits operate outside of government mandaded limitations; which is the case here in Michigan with these anonymous "22,000 member" council. I would never be connected with any board which condoned these closed/back door antics of their members and feel that very simple questions involving how these people have operated to date is the only very well spelled out issue here.

You're on the wrong forum. TLCA has absolutely nothing to do with anything in Michigan. The OHV group that I think you are referring to, ARRA, is very clandestine. That's not TLCA's issue. That's yours. You need to pick the correct forum, correct representatives, correct people, and address THEM. Not us. We aren't involved in any way, shape or form with them.

Regarding "pay to play" -- I'm all for it.
 
You're on the wrong forum. TLCA has absolutely nothing to do with anything in Michigan. The OHV group that I think you are referring to, ARRA, is very clandestine. That's not TLCA's issue. That's yours..

Tell me something.....why should one join or attempt to form a club in any state....if our national orv organizations have the above 'we won't back you' attitude whenever orv representation gets taken behind closed doors at even our largest trail sytem? (with groups these leaders know very well using that same fact to close down large areas of land to the rest of us?).

You then describe one of our very own off-road groups as being "very clandestine" like it's some kind of damn 'badge of honor' or something that you wouldn't change if you had the stones to do so!

Again, this is why kids don't get mixed up in these arrogant attitudes and is what drives the average age of those behind-closed-doors 'involved' in these issues up each and every day.

I'm sorry, but when a man has to fight both tooth and nail for these damn meetings to be published and then is accused of seeking to disrupt the meetings themselves for doing so...it sure as he11 makes him think twice about making the 7 hour drive to be treated most likely the same when he gets there.

It's not that these guys have orchestrated this mess over several decades that bothers me....it's the number of people around this country who don't have the stones to speak out regarding any of it....that is so disgusting.
 
Tell me something.....why should one join or attempt to form a club in any state....if our national orv organizations have the above 'we won't back you' attitude whenever orv representation gets taken behind closed doors at even our largest trail sytem? (with groups these leaders know very well using that same fact to close down large areas of land to the rest of us?).

Why should any group back someone not willing to

1- State your name and affiliation with TLCA

We've followed your argument as much as possible. But you haven't given us any information to show that YOU are supporting TLCA. Why should we invest our time and resources in you, if you aren't willing to invest in us?

TLCA is made up of members all over this country, as well as Canada, and other countries around the world. But we aren't a Land Use group first and foremost. We are a "Car Club" that tries to work towards the common goals of our members.

Are YOU a member of TLCA?
You then describe one of our very own off-road groups as being "very clandestine" like it's some kind of damn 'badge of honor' or something that you wouldn't change if you had the stones to do so!
Define "our". ARRA is not a group that is supported or affiliated with TLCA. It's a group that seems to be made up of a number of Motorcycle groups. We are a Land Cruiser group.

Clandestine is not a badge of honor. I'm agreeing that they seem "sneaky". To the best of my knowledge, TLCA has never had any thing to do with them, nor are they a group that has gone against TLCA.

Since you aren't in TLCA, how can you expect us to work with you on this matter? Since there isn't a Club in Michigan willing to work with TLCA, what is it that you want us to do?

Again, this is why kids don't get mixed up in these arrogant attitudes and is what drives the average age of those behind-closed-doors 'involved' in these issues up each and every day.

Again, you are spewing forth the same argument, again, and again. Define "kids". 12? 16? 22?
I'm sorry, but when a man has to fight both tooth and nail for these damn meetings to be published and then is accused of seeking to disrupt the meetings themselves for doing so...it sure as he11 makes him think twice about making the 7 hour drive to be treated most likely the same when he gets there.

Again, this is something that needs to be addressed at the state level. It's not TLCA that is hiding. What the heck do you want TLCA to do here?
It's not that these guys have orchestrated this mess over several decades that bothers me....it's the number of people around this country who don't have the stones to speak out regarding any of it....that is so disgusting.

Speak out to who?
 
phew...

For me, Land Use is huge. An approach I have accepted is: Think nationally, act locally.

No, I don't fret over Michigan land use issues, we have enough to fret over here in CA.
I tried to at one time, along with many other states but found I was spread to thin to do any good. Now I focus on trails I use... thus Friends of the Rubicon get my donations and CA and western states get my letters.

But I applaude your intensity and hope you keep pounding on your local associations the same way you have pounded this thread. Kudos.

Tony Twiddy
PMC, TLCA
Registered Voter in CA
 
I'll reply more in detail later; yet my goal here is not to bash the TLCA and never has been (take a look at my username for pete's sake).

I bought a quad 7 years ago.....got involved in atv issues and even sponsored/held youth safety training.

Picked up a Rhino....gravitated to the side-by-side forums.

Purchased an FJ....here I am.

No 'agenda'...no desire for 'inside information' (I'm about as 'outside' as one can get)...and certainly no stomach for being treated poorly as I stumble across what nobody seems willing to deny for what has been years now.

I simply don't like those who purposely hide behind closed doors making decisions for the rest of us while all the while arrogantly acting as if we are all just not 'capable' of comprehending just exactly how they represent us to others in the first place.
We all understand that "shared trails" mean the same damn "multi-use trails" in use at 98% of the states in this nation...and we're not dumb enough to believe that competing for maintenance grant money each year on a volunteer-driven basis is either sustainable in our busy family's future; ecologically sound for the lack of proper heavy equipment needed by each club applying for it...or that this yearly contest does ANYTHING to promote cross-sport cooperation in the first place.

In Michigan, it's an upcoming multi-million dollar 'who-gets-the-cash/trails' game being played out here that (frankly) leaders such as your former don't necessarily feel very damn confortable talking about for exactly the same reasons outlined very clearly above.
Honestly?...if this was some kind of local jogging path instead of our massive multi-thousand mile responsibility involving the largest system that this nation has going...I'd probably give both him and all of these other national leaders everybody seems now willing to play 'dumb' about...a pass.

Yet when considering the same nasty treatment that our future young people are sure to receive for rightly inquiring as to the very same inevitable questions in the future?...forget about it.
 
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In Michigan, it's an upcoming multi-million dollar 'who-gets-the-cash/trails' game being played out here that (frankly) leaders such as your former don't necessarily feel very damn confortable talking about for exactly the same reasons outlined very clearly above.

For the FIFTH TIME -- Who?

Which "former leader" are you speaking of?

I don't understand your method here. You complain about groups unwilling to publicize information, yet you employ the same tactic.
 
For the FIFTH TIME -- Who?

Which "former leader" are you speaking of?

I don't understand your method here. You complain about groups unwilling to publicize information, yet you employ the same tactic.

Again, this is the same kind of "gosh, we can't possibly know who/what you are referring to there in Michigan at the largest trail system in this country.." that I have received from your claimed 'mystery man' and every single other national orv leader I've ever spoken with who promised to call back and provide politely asked for answers over the phone....but never did.

Nobody knows anybody else in this 'community '(see the arrogant and anonymous idiots we have to deal with here in Michigan also) ....yet when threads like THESE get posted https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=61890 .....everybody 'somehow' seemingly snaps right back to being on the same damn page as if the questions from others were all common knowledge

I mean it would be 'laughable'...if it weren't so darn sad. :(
Again, this is why we can get only atver and one quad rider and a fewfull-size guys to show up at the last quarterly state orv advisory board meeting. Anybody with even half a will to participate here has been disgustedly driven away for what has become decades now....and I honestly don't blame them.
 
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So, are you talking about Greg?

Is it impossible fo ryou to just answer the question?

Greg's a grown man. Have you apporached him with your concerns? He should be pretty easy to get ahold of.

http://sharetrails.org/staff.cfm

Again, I'm trying to understand how you want TLCA to help you. Are you a member of TLCA?
 
Again, this is the same kind of "gosh, we can't possibly know who/what you are referring to there in Michigan at the largest trail system in this country.." that I have received from your claimed 'mystery man' and every single other national orv leader I've ever spoken with who promised to call back and provide politely asked for answers over the phone....but never did.

Pardon the profrainity but:

Hasn't it become obvious that most of us out west don't know what the f*** and who the f*** you are talking about so save us a buch of grief and tell us so we can understand and possibly get involved like you want or SHUT THE F**K UP

Jesus, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we want to know what you are talking about and are sympathetic, but cannot do anything without specifics. I don't know who you are talking about, I don't know what you are talking about. The only thing I know about Michigan is that the Red Wings suck...so please educate me and everyone else by giving specifics. If not see the phrase in caplital letters above.
 
Pardon the profrainity but....SHUT THE F**K UP....

Is this what the TLCA is all about....or do certain members enjoy a 'look the other way' free pass just as our nationally-affiliated AMA members continually receive here in Michigan when either bastardizing the "shared trails" concept to the point of closure for the rest of us or frankly treating simple answer seekers in the exact same manner?

Again, guys....what kind of character do we reflect on our kids and just as importantly the people we hope to influence...when this is allowed to be held up as just who we actually are?

My guess is that I'm simply to old and 'old-fashioned' to both patiently explain the concept of transparency in club organizations or how orv leadership should not be 'allowed' to speak out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to true multi-use trail unity everywhere in this country.....not just where the all-powerful AMA (with fierce cover from our national orv leaders) 'allows' it to happen.
 
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So, are you talking about Greg?

Is it impossible fo ryou to just answer the question?

Greg's a grown man. Have you apporached him with your concerns? He should be pretty easy to get ahold of.

http://sharetrails.org/staff.cfm

Again, I'm trying to understand how you want TLCA to help you. Are you a member of TLCA?

From above 'once again'.....:
"...Again, this is the same kind of "gosh, we can't possibly know who/what you are referring to there in Michigan at the largest trail system in this country.." that I have received from your claimed 'mystery man' and every single other national orv leader I've ever spoken with who promised to call back and provide politely asked for answers over the phone....but never did...".
 
Is this what the TLCA is all about....
ummm... No, not the TLCA. But this is reflective of you, and how you are annoying the people who support the TLCA. "Biscuit" isn't a TLCA board member.
or do certain members enjoy a 'look the other way' free pass just as our nationally-affiliated AMA members
Our? I have nothing to do with AMA. This is the TLCA, not the AMA
continually receive here in Michigan when either bastardizing the "shared trails" concept to the point of closure for the rest of us or frankly treating simple answer seekers in the exact same manner?
I'm a simple answer seeker.

I seek your name. -- You refuse to provide it.

I seek your affiliation. -- You refuse to state if you are a member of TLCA.

I ask you if you've contacted Greg. You refuse to answer.

Again, guys....what kind of character do we reflect on our kids and just as importantly the people we hope to influence...when this is allowed to be held up as just who we actually are?

What kind of character do you reflect? You refuse to provide the details that have been asked of you, over and over.
My guess is that I'm simply to old and 'old-fashioned' to both patiently explain the concept of transparency in club organizations or how orv leadership should not be 'allowed' to speak out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to true multi-use trail unity everywhere in this country.....not just where the all-powerful AMA (with fierce cover from our national orv leaders) 'allows' it to happen.

Again. We are NOT the AMA.

You've spent considerable time stating over and over that you have a beef, some beef, with actions occuring in Michigan. We've suggested approcahing other groups. You keep banging away here.

The TLCA supports the Blue Ribbon Coalition. We feel that they are the best group to advocate land use. We donate money to them, as there is strength in numbers, and the represent us better than we can on our own.

Question -- Do you think it is wrong of us to support BRC?
 
From above 'once again'.....:
"...Again, this is the same kind of "gosh, we can't possibly know who/what you are referring to there in Michigan at the largest trail system in this country.." that I have received from your claimed 'mystery man' and every single other national orv leader I've ever spoken with who promised to call back and provide politely asked for answers over the phone....but never did...".

Once again..... you've said nothing.

What orv leaders have said they would call back and didn't....

Maybe I missed it, but what trail system? Saying the largest doesn't really tell me, or does it not have a name?

What's your name.......? <- 10th time.....
 
troll....
 
That is correct, nor have I ever claimed to be. Just a member here.
I just wanted to differentiate for "John" or "Jim" or whatever his name is...

The BOD members who have replied have bent over backwards trying to get a answer to the questions... You don't know how many times I've had to delete my own typing ;)

Thanks for providing an example of how everyone is feeling!
 
I don’t normally find myself in the habit of being goaded into responding to posts of this nature but, because John is misrepresenting the truth, I am making an exception in this case. The efforts and reputations of good people and good organizations are not something I take lightly.

This person’s name is John Stears.

Just so the record is straight, I believe that John here is referring to me in his post when he says “your former leader” (not sure where he got that terminology). I am the one who sent him the “un-apologetic” email. I’ve pasted the full and actual content of the complete email to John below for your perusal. It was sent in response to not a single email but a spamming of inflammatory emails to the BlueRibbon Coalition and to me. And that was after a phone call to him that lasted for well over an hour listening to and trying to understand his concerns. As you can see from its content, the only accuracy to his above statements is that it was in fact intended to be “un-apologetic” and “dismissive”.

John,

With regard to the NOHVCC conference, BRC is also very involved with this effort. I already pointed the Oct. 2 mistake to NOHVCC. The actual deadline date for registration is Oct. 18. They simply have not had the time to get that corrected. The folks at NOHVCC are sincere in what they are doing with these workshops, they are open and free to the entire public and do not fit in your latest little “conspiracy theory”. They simply had a date carried over from the SD workshops that inadvertently didn’t get changed to the 18th in the document announcing the Michigan workshop.

With regard to your “conspiracy theory” and your demands for our actions, BlueRibbon Coalition is not in the habit of publicly chastising good folks who are well representing their OHV constituents. Contrary to your allegations, we do stand up and are standing up for the people we represent and will continue to do so.

I have done a lot of research into your accusations and with the situation in Michigan as a whole. I can find a lot of positive effort on the part of many of the folks you criticize (many of whom are our members). Contrary to that, not only can I not find where you are a member of BlueRibbon Coalition or have been in the last four years (as you have claimed both to me and in internet forums) but I cannot seem to find where you have been involved in any of the positive efforts. I can find however, where you incessantly criticize and at that, in every possible venue you can. All of this has led me to recognize there is a definite lack of credibility to your allegations and I question the motives behind your obstructionism.

Being an armchair critic is not effective John. As you are finding, it makes enemies and generates a loss of credibility. Attempting, at least, to be an armchair advocate would be far more valuable. I encourage you to lead, follow or get out of the way… there is much to be done and you are not helping.

Kindly also stop spamming the emails of the BlueRibbon Coalition.

Sincerely,

Greg Mumm
Executive Director, BlueRibbon Coalition

Please also note (for your information) that in addition to the plethora of emails I and others in the BRC and NOHVCC have received, below are similar inflammatory threads from this person from three other internet forums that I am aware of. I am not sure of his agenda but would certainly welcome you to decide for yourself.

http://forums.atvconnection.com/messageview.cfm/catid/24/threadid/473974/STARTPAGE/1.cfm Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Blackballed” in this thread

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-200688.html Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “The Bottom Line” in this thread


http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/foru.../8969-so-who-belongs-tlca.html?highlight=tlca Please note: “MichiganChapter?” went by the name of “Kzoocruiser” in this thread.

Incidentally, for those of you who live in and around Michigan, the conferences around which John builds some of his “conspiracy theorys” are very important to be involved in.

NOVHCC has put together an excellent national workshop series sponsored by the the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC), the Specialty Vehicle Institute of America (SVIA) and Americans for Responsible Recreational Access (ARRA). Coordination of all workshops is by the NOHVCC. Design of the workshop sessions was a collective effort by professional trail consultants, ARRA, MIC, SVIA, American Motorcyclist Association (AMA), Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC), United Four Wheel Drive Associations (UFWDA), and NOHVCC, with input from USFS trail managers.

These workshops have some very good content for the purpose of educating folks on how to get involved in the Travel Management Rule. This first workshop in the state of Michigan is taking place in Michigan’s UP and a second one is currently being scheduled for just after the first of the year.

If you want more information, send me an email and I will get you the details.

Greg
 
Thank you Greg! I appreciate you taking the time to let us know what is happening.
 

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