Do others speak out on land issues or not?

[MichiganChapter?]

We are having a very frank discussion here https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?p=1427388#post1427388 that seems to be somewhat foreign to most in terms of factual bluntness.

Do most orvers have this "just send your money in to whoever" attitude or do you demand that your national organizations take a stand on any of these "access-related" (our access to their positions representing us) issues?

I'm frankly sick of the silence you get from these guys concerning often their 'buddies' when our house isn't necessarily in order...and it obviously shows.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Since this is obviously an uncomfortable subject for some.....here's an example:

Extremely important workshop affecting our access to massive portions of the Upper Peninsula http://www.nohvcc.org/IMAGES/MIPR.doc

....Notice the press release date (a week ago)
....Notice the cut-off date for us mere orv peons outside of our arrogant national orv organization 'leadership' to be included (today)
....Try 'yourself' to register ("I" can't accees the link as of tonight)
....ask yourself the following:
If even the state DNR (our only source regarding official Michigan orv info) refuses to announce these major meetings here http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_15070---,00.html
...why should anybody be 'surprised' that very few of us out here actually ever get involved in the issues which affect us? (a MONTH to process how many registrants 5 business days after the announcement and cutoff for participants?).

Unbelievable. (Note: this link was finally fixed after insistence from one national orv organization that they had already informed another of this problem and that somebody 'just didn't have time' to fix it. Another organization displayed a very early incorrect deadline date for registering; fixed it 'out-of-the-blue' after their incorrect deadlinehad passed....then refused to answer all previous e-mails concerning the problem. I then asked the atv club who hosted this incorrect date from day ome to kindly let their members inon the extended period....they have to this date, 10/9/06, inexplainably refused to do so).

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Received a very non-apoligetic e-mail from your former leader today stating that although he had "already" informed these organizers that the former 7-day drop-dead deadline was fast approaching with absolutely no correction allowing us mere peons here outside non-profit leadership to become involved in this process....they "just did not have the time" to fix same before this deadline appeared to expire for anybody viewing that press release since its inception for the first and most likely last time.

My point is this:
If we can't bring up the fact to these 'leaders' that THEIR important meeting announcements are not correct or that even our state leaders refuse to publish anything regarding the critical meetings that THEY schedule with them...why in the heck should any of us send a dime into organizations penning the arrogant and dismissive mail that I just received this morning?

And the lesson?
Damn well never question motorcyclists seeking to snatch up large swaths of our forest land for their permanent and exclusive use only. These cylists did their damnest to push through a legislative trail plan recently that conveniently ommitted any talk of more "me-only" single track until the appropriation money involved for same was found buried in our public meeting minutes. When we meet with state forest officials and our 'leadership'...WE DAMN WELL HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK WHAT THEIR POSITION WILL BE ON MULTI-USE TRAILS BEFOREHAND AND HOW THEY WILL OPPOSE THE EFFECTIVE BASTARDIZATION OF THEIR "SHARED TRAILS" MEANINGLESS MOTTO.
Over 40% of an over 3,000 mile system is obviously not enough for these riders who teach their kids how to separate themselves from this community....and they know damn well that their national organization counterparts will quickly do the exact same hatchet job on anybody who questions this long continuing arrogant attitude in a heartbeat.

I used to wonder why many in my state just didn't get involved in off-road politics and why public meetings regarding same were grossly un-attended. All I can say is that if these previous people ran up against the same you arrogant arses that I've had the displeasure to meet...that mystery for me has definitely been solved.

 

[ginericLC]

The situation in Idaho isn't much better. We are dealing with national bureaucracies for the most part. BLM and FS. And really it seems to be hit or miss on how they treat you. I've signed up for everything I can to be notified of meetings etc... And then I keep up with them. I keep signing up and writing letters. If I don't I know I'll get dropped out of the loop.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"...I've signed up for everything I can to be notified of meetings etc... And then I keep up with them. I keep signing up and writing letters. If I don't I know I'll get dropped out of the loop.

If you are worried about getting dropped out of the loop with that kind of genuine and admired effort...what in the heck are OUR national orv organizations doing about that problem?

I've just spent the past week being informed that these same big orv 'non-profits' asking for our money all the time....can't "force" the USFS or state personnel to actually post the fact that they will be attending meetings sponsored by these same people to foster "communication" with the rest of us!

One points out a very SIMPLE error affecting the deadline for us mere 4-wheeled 'peons' out here who keep their lights on and their kids fed...and they send you back an e-mail pointing out exactly who they have mailed with accusations that you are 'plotting' to disrupt the whole damn meeting itself! (heck, they don't even answer you directly....they just reply with a list of people and conversations they've had about you!).

Let's see...I'm supposed to send my money into some national orv organization who doesn't even recognize the importance of actually encouraging my state employees to spread the word in regards to meetings both they and these arrogant idiots put on for supposedly "us" and them.
And if the AMA or any of their affiliated crony organizations show up to grab large chunks of our public forest for forever "me-only" single track...every damn one of us had better keep our damn mouths shut while these arrogant and elitist cyclists snatch whatever land they can grab behind closed doors while in the process of dividing this orv community even further into oblivion (not to mention encouraging these bozos to teach every one of their kids that they are somehow "special" compared to the balance of the motorized community and that rude arrogance is indeed a 'way of life' in their wacked out community).

Yeah, you're in-explainably working your butt to keep informed....and I'm wondering why that is so damn tough to do in the first place.(I'm finding that it just depends on what rig you ride here in Michigan and if you'll keep your mouth shut when it comes to the "shared trails" concept that these guys hope we'll 'bite on' with our "no questions allowed or we'll disparage your character" membership money year after year.

 

[LukeZero]

First off- Tim (I think) I really enjoyed getting a chance to wheel with you at the Badlands in August. That being said, I think your complaint is with a specific organization and its board of directors. I wish you would state the organization with which you have the complaint. I think you are asking some valid questions about what the TLCA does in regards to landuse issues- but your anger towards this other group makes it difficult to know whether you are criticizing TLCA or warning them (us) not to do the same thing. You obviously feel strongly about this, and that is great that you are bringing your heart and soul into this matter. I agree with you that there are some (I've never seen it in TLCA) that are really impressed with themselves and really aren't into landuse issues for what I think are the right reasons. Maybe I'm a little dense, but I can't follow some of your compaints.

I think we have the opportunity within TLCA to do better than some of the other clubs/organizations, and you seem to have the drive to be a part of that. Please don't get so frustrated that you give up.


Just my $.02.


Luke

 

[ginericLC]

I'm having a hard time following what you say as I don't completely understand who you are upset with.

I've had really good luck with Blue Ribbon Coalition. When I've chatted with them about issues I see happening they've steered me to more resources. However, they like any other organization can only go so far. They can't know what is going on in all 50 states unless we tell them about problems we have.

I've had not such good luck with the local 4wd association. They have a good idea of what they should be doing but I'm disappointed in what they have actually done.

Local motorcycle groups are definitely only looking out for themselves. Some of them have even illegally marked trails showing them closed to 4wd vehicles when they in fact are not. So as far as counting on them as allies in the fight to keep lands open to the public they aren't the best assett in my opinon. My experiences are on a local level though, I know other have had radically different experiences throughout the state. So you can't categorize folks even statewide or nationally really as the local folks are what make the impact.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"I think your complaint is with a specific organization and its board of directors. I wish you would state the organization with which you have the complaint...."

With all due respect...I haven't found a national orv organization as of yet that wasn't dismissive from the start and more so as the initial conversation proceeded. Lots of defending people no matter what the issue and "we'll get back with yous" that never seem to materialize.
I quit arguing "issues' quite some time ago to concentrate full time on simply demanding that the public be treated upfront and with some inkling of respect. I don't appreciate those who cover up for others on the stupidest of these childish matters and I believe that the damage these 'leaders' have done to any chance of our kids 'getting involved' anytime soon trumps even the disaster that this largest system in the nation is now in.

The only thing I've heard second-hand about the TLC here or anywhere is that they have had some political problems within some unnamed Michigan chapter a few years back and that some feelings were hurt. I'm not here to disparage the TLC and even penned my screen name hoping that a chapter was availiable to me that actually kept abreast of issues at (again) the largest maintained trail system in this country.
If the TLC shows more courage than every other national organization I've had the displeasure ofrunning into out there concerning EASY issues such as simply asking the DNR or Forest Service to actually post the "communication building" meetings that they attend and all these other groups sponsor...then that sounds like an organization that would stand up for both you and me regardless of us being 'nobody' and the other guy being somebody that they wrote off a workshop/vacation with.

"....I think you are asking some valid questions about what the TLCA does in regards to landuse issues- but your anger towards this other group makes it difficult to know whether you are criticizing TLCA or warning them (us) not to do the same thing...."

Again, if the TLCA is different from all of these other groups and indeed fights for the most basic tenants of this public being properly informed along with the opposite of our now bastardized "shared trails" concept that certain non-profits seem to enjoy collecting money around without any explanation when asked...then I'm all for them.
If they support groups like "22,000 member" anonymous councils with no public position ever given; cancelled public meetings with no updates for up to 6 months at a time and things like "kumbaya" meetings with absolutely no public notice given...no, I do not.

"...You obviously feel strongly about this, and that is great that you are bringing your heart and soul into this matter. I agree with you that there are some (I've never seen it in TLCA) that are really impressed with themselves and really aren't into landuse issues for what I think are the right reasons...."

The majority here (with any power) are either in it for the reason you mention above; money to unbelievably support themselves or plain 'ol land grabbing to lock up as much as they can forever for their private and 100% exlusionary use.
It's no more simple than that and hasn't been for decades now.
It simply takes an actual 'man' at any one of these national organizations to call what's been going on here for what it is: damaging to the largest system out there both economically and more importantly ecologically.

"....Maybe I'm a little dense, but I can't follow some of your compaints...."

I don't believe that you're dense one bit.
I just cannot explain in a few paragraphs how one cyclist and one atver show up for a quarterly orv advisory board meeting right smack dab in the middle of so much unresolved orv-related business affecting usfor yearsto come (decisions involving literally 10's of millions of dollars and possibly more over the time period that this was last revisited).
What I can tell you in one sentance is this.
Our kids don't have chance one of ever having their voices heard here if this crap continues to be accepted by groups like the TLCA itself.

"...We have the opportunity within TLCA to do better than some of the other clubs/organizations, and you seem to have the drive to be a part of that. Please don't get so frustrated that you give up...."

Luke ,the only reason anybody would want me to 'give up' here is that this state has been an embarrasment to light and full-size organizers for years. Look at Wisconsin or any other state in this nation with a fraction of the negligently maintained trails that we have here...do any of the successful programs you witness there resemble soon to be 4,000 mile Michigan in even the least?

Thanks for your thoughts and am hoping that another TLCA member jumps in here somewhere with some kind of rebuttal on any of this mess ...as I would hate to lump any goodorganization into the same category as others I've run across for the simplest of public responsibility driven issues.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Again, if you're a national orv organization who flat out refuses to simply lobby for your very own workshop to be announced/displayed not only in your all encompassing 'trade' organization (see Michigan's absence here as of today http://www.arra-access.com/arra/publicmeetings.html after repeated and unanswered requests to include same mailed to this site's anonymous 'webmaster' with no living/breathing individual listed)....but at the very forestry and related government websites that your workshop itself focuses on in these HUGE areas http://www.arra-access.com/arra/michigan_workshop.html?member_key=i88w8ns4q5bi883& ....you're going to come across as pretty damn arrogant and/or purposely non-inclusive with (frankly) no excuse available to the 'leadership' of your membership dependent group.

What a goofy stand to make (IMO) involving folks unfortunately and effectively NOT being exposed to 'their business' for no other reason than pure arrogance on (now) MANY people's part. (somebody's former 'big cheese' included)

 

[MichiganChapter?]

"..I'm having a hard time following what you say as I don't completely understand who you are upset with...."

Again, Eric...I wouldn't send a dime in to any one of them for the rude and arrogant responses I've been given for simply pointing out the exclusionary and even simple procedural problems this Michigan public has faced here for years involving the largest system in this country. I mean really...how much more blunt would you like me to get?

"...I've had really good luck with Blue Ribbon Coalition. When I've chatted with them about issues I see happening they've steered me to more resources. However, they like any other organization can only go so far. They can't know what is going on in all 50 states unless we tell them about problems we have...."


I've had 'nice' conversations with the BRC right on up to the very second I 'dared' mention anybody here in Michigan that the general public is forced to deal with here behind these tightly closed doors and anonymoyus councils. I won't even get into what is said after that.

"....I've had not such good luck with the local 4wd association. They have a good id"...I've had really good luck with Blue Ribbon Coalition. When I've chatted with them about issues I see happening they've steered me to more resources. However, they like any other organization can only go so far. They can't know what is going on in all 50 states unless we tell them about problems we have...." ea of what they should be doing but I'm disappointed in what they have actually done...."

A guy mentioned to me once that many he had dealt with had the same view here and I've witnessed the exact same thing at every single orv advisory board meeting that I have ever attended.
Lots of talk about bathrooms not being cleaned and smoke blew about the department not doing this or that on the 'service' level; yet not a damn thing about fixing the system as a whole or forcing folks to actually pay for what they received.(we charge $16.25 for an over 3,000 mile system;so you don't have to be an 'Einstein' to realize that this amount just hasn't cut it and never had a chance in the first place).

"...Local motorcycle groups are definitely only looking out for themselves. Some of them have even illegally marked trails showing them closed to 4wd vehicles when they in fact are not. So as far as counting on them as allies in the fight to keep lands open to the public they aren't the best assett in my opinon...."

That is the first time I have ever witnessed this factual statement put so strongly and it is definitely a fact that when brought up frankly to these national organizations....that'll get you 'the treatment' for sure.
This group's arrogant and obnoxious behavior not only continually splits this community apart....it forces these national organizationsto 'pick sides' when simply standing up like a man to their decades long brainwashing of our youth concerning "me-only" land siezures is all that is needed.
Whatever your problem; these guys have proven that you damn well better not include anybody in that actual assessment that has ever supported them in kind over the years.
And believe me, it can be just as stupid as these refusals to simply list these meeting dates right on up to the govt. busting a guy for the exact same skill-set that they're supposed to keep us out of trouble regarding.

"...My experiences are on a local level though, I know other have had radically different experiences throughout the state. So you can't categorize folks even statewide or nationally really as the local folks are what make the impact...."

We have the largest cycling district in the nation representing the single largest on or off-road organization that I'm aware of. I would hazard to say that no other state even comes close as to the amount of land that these cyclists have spirited away for their exclusive use only and they'reangling for more with every one of these national organization's "shared trail" blessings.
They are teaching our children that they are somehow "different" from the rest of us and "deserve the right" to be segregated at untold costs to our state's economic health and our trail system's ecological future through their greedy resistance to for-profit privitized maintenance.
How many more valid points do I have to make or just how much time do you have?

Thanks for the reply and know that I very much appreciate you finally saying what many have not had the stones to mention even after witnessing same themselves to possibly the detriment of their very own trail systems.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

I also would like to thank the TLCA for allowing me to voice my view(s) concerning this upcoming meeting affecting both the massive Ottawa and Hiawatha National Forests.

It's bad enough that some of our own national orv organizations rudely and arrogantly refuse to acknowledge that simple mistakes have been made affecting Joe average public's attendance at meetings they (we) sponsor....yet when the various governmental agencies invited to these same workshops treat the peon public requesting that these dates simply be published with the exact same attitude...then I'm here to say there is something rotten somewhere and it needs to be FIXED before more individuals are driven away from getting involved in the first place.

Anybody attending these meetings seeking to shut down large areas of land strictly for themselves should be confronted and dismissed so that larger issues can be dealt with on a much more inclusive and true "multi-use" level.

No other orv area in this country has allowed behind-closed-doors single-trackers to act in this arrogant of a manner and when we allow our national organizations ("sharedtrails"?) to not only look the other way in regards to these selfish land grabs...but do the same when laughingly simple meeting dates are left out of the public's right to view them and indeed become involved in these processes..we indeed ALL suffer from those ignorant actions both now and in the "you can't go down 'our' trail" future.

Either these national organizations need to start standing up for VAST MAJORITY light and full-size crowd 100% while forcing EVERYBODY into the effective multi-use community...or I can guarantee that we will see more of our very own government employees cow-towing to these cyclists in the hope that they shut off even larger tracts of OUR LAND to us 'land-raping' 4-wheelers. (and if you believe this is a stretch; ask your local politician how these cyclists use the "our impact vs theirs" stab-us-in-the-back argument each and every time they seek to shut these large areas down to everybody but themselves).

You can't play both sides of the fence and receive respect from anybody when it comes to sharing trails and properly maintaining them with the dollars needed from ALL segments within our community.
And the time has come with this "we can't force the Forestry service to publish our/their meetings" b.s. to finally call these national leaders; government employees and even manufacturers to the table regarding exactly that.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

http://www.arra-access.com/arra/publicmeetings.html
ARRA website today after repeated requests to simply post these Forest Service workshops for the good of the orv community (note South Dakota's NOHVCC workshop listing; while Michigan's workshop involving the discussion of more "me-only-and-forever" single-track-only trail is left out).

This is what these workshop participant's websites looked like as of today (one week before the deadline to register):

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_15070-73837--,00.html
Our official Michigan website for publicly announced orv information affecting the state (again repeated requests for some kind of explanation...no reply from the state...and definitely no reply from any of our national orv organizations as to why they have this 'great relationship' with our single-track loving state employees who won't publish workshop dates for the majority 4-wheeling public.)

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/ottawa/fore...lic_meetings/2005_04_onf_meeting_schedule.pdf
Ottawa National Forest (nothing)

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/hiawatha/events/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/hiawatha/news/
Hiawatha National Forest (nothing)

Here is the size of the area affected by this non-attempt by both parties (ours and theirs) to communicate with the 'peon' 4-wheeling land-raping public (that being the same MAJORITY orv public that pays these government wages and sends 'obligatory' dues money to these non-reponsive orv non-profits chock full of "me-only trail" single-track sympathizers):
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/maps/location_map.php

 

[MichiganChapter?]

Finally reached the Hiawatha today to get some kind of answer as to why our national orv organizations claim that they cannot FORCE these people to publish the meetings that "we" sponsor and our state/federal employees attend.

After a very informative call from a very reasonable and helpful employee of the Forestry Department; my conclusion of this mess is this:

The Hiawatha evidently isn't being 'pressured' by our people to publish anything regarding the dates for these meetings....and that our Forest Service didn't evidently have ANY problem publishing same if simply contacted that there was an oversight here adversely affecting the 4-wheeled community's ability to attend same.

Somebody's either a damn liar here or doesn't want these dates simply published for our 4-wheeling majority's benefit. If there was a more 'p.c' way to put it; I would....there's not.(we've already witnessed these arrogant cyclists inexplicably convince our DNR to fund a "keep everybody else off our trail" environmental impact study to ram yet another of these type trails down the majority's throats on this forest land).

Again, why are the national organizations running interference for these guys once again and why is simply posting a meeting date so difficult when they've been informed of this ommission for so long now? (and the 'drop-dead' date not even a week away?).

 

[Buckru]

Tim,

I am also having an extremely difficult time following your thoughts. The reason being your sentence structure. Your "run on" sentences are very hard to follow especially when combining multiple thoughts. I am not trying to be critical. I am trying to help you CLEARLY express your passion about the injustices you are experiencing with the Michigan DNR. Take a deep breath, type slower, and add more periods.


Buck Buchanan

 

[woooody]

Received a very non-apoligetic e-mail from your former leader today

WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. There is no one within that organization that was a "former leader" of TLCA.

Do you know what TLCA is? Toyota Land Cruiser Association.

 

[Dreamin]

Dear MichiganChapter?,

I like yourself am a highly opinionated person, however anytime I spew off something that bugs me, there are some criteria I follow.

1) It is very important to me that people know who I am. This is so that they know who they are dealing with, and also gives me credibility.

2) I always make sure that my facts are trackable, ie names, dates, and events. This way anyone who wants to verify or dispute my facts can do so. This also increases my credibility.

Now I have read every word that you have managed to put down on this thread, but I can not agree or disagree with you do to the fact that I do not know who you are. This is strictly my personal opinion and has nothing to do with any of my official affiliations, but if you would like myself and others to take your words seriously then maybe you should identify yourself. You might take some lumps or you might be praised but at least we know who you are and where you stand. If you would like to respond to this post be my guest, you know who I am!!!!


Michael B Dremann

"Dreamin"

 

[Biscuit]

I'm going to take a stab at summarizing the theme of this thread.

MichiganChapter?'s complaints, with no names named:

1. Government agencies don't do enough to engage the off road community on a significant level.
2. Some group leader somewhere fraked up something in regards to land use.
3. Off road groups don't do enough to lobby as a whole for trail access.
4. The public/individuals are apathetic to land use issues.

Did I miss anything?

 

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

That's about it........

Did he leave? Too bad, I was hoping this would turn into something good.

 

[MichiganChapter?]

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=116413
Please see the above thread to further illustrate my point. I've never had any trouble revealing who I am (as most idiots chime in with that info along with the obligatory characterr asassination);yet I'm finding "what's the point?" if any one group of forum members won't even acknowledge in-house issuess such as above or even the National Forest workshop fiasco I've taken the time to outline in detail for them earlier.

If you witness some kind of legitimacy in the arrogantly anonymous back-door dealings we live with here in Michigan...well thanks for doing so; I've sxpent a lot of my personal time simply fighting for openness within this community so that no one group ever excludes the other or bastardizes the term "shared trails" for nothing but renewable membership's sake.
Yet if every one of you is a national orv organization kool-aid drinker who could care less as to how hundreds of millions of orv dollars are spent east of the Mississippi or how community policy is affected when local orv non-profits are allowed to form "22,000 member" anonymous councils so that their non-lobbying tax-exempt status is not put into question...then I'm sorry, but I'll determine just who I'm dealing with here first before we all get on a first name basis.

Again, no orv organization that I've run into has had the stones to comment publicly as to the type of thread linked above and probably never will if folks like myself simply ask the following question:

If $15 or an annual fee isn't to your liking....how much is and where would you like this most often NEEDED revenue spent on your local resource?

 

[TUFFTORQ]

Again, no orv organization that I've run into has had the stones to comment publicly as to the type of thread linked above and probably never will QUOTE]

MichiganChapter what would you like the ORV organizations that you mention, TLCA, BRC, AMA, and NOHVCC to comment about specifically? It seems your beef is that the organizations haven't given you their individual resumes for approval. Which of these organizations are you a member? Have you supported or contributed financially to allow our delegates and legal representation advocates to fight the fight and be heard? Perhaps you should consider running for a board position with one of these organizations. Will membership support your views and agenda or distant themselves? I continue to see your vague and general postings, but have yet to see your solution to the very issues you keep complaining about. Which organizations and it's "buddy buddy" syndrome are you referring too that don't have the stones? Is it in Michigan specifically? If so, form a fricken organization of your own with a specific agenda in your backyard and ride away to the politicians while taking a personal stance.