Which is exactly why land use organizations and local orv leaders treat the majority orv community out there with such little respect; as I've described in detail above.
so, being a car club gets us treated with less respect? don't see how but ok.and i'm still looking for detail in any thing you have posted here.
now if you are referring to the fact that i said we are a car club that donates, not a land use org, then your response still doesn't make any sense.we donate, have people who are active in land use, and people who go to meetings, write letters, and get the work done by being out there, playing to win.
You guys may enjoy being told to keep your mouths shut when motorcyclists grab our land/put up barriers; 50 vs 60" trail issues are rightly debated or even when 'untouchable' anonymous councils are brought out into the light of day...yet frankly, this is where blindly 'donating' only stops for me.
nobody has once ever told me to keep my mouth shut about land use issues. if this is the way you are being treated, there are two possibilities.
1. stop whining, rambling, incoherent rabble rousing. use thought out, concise, point making presentations. try it, you might like how it works.
2. stop being involved with the groups that are doing this(assuming it's not just trying to keep YOU quiet...) and start your own land use group. nothing is more effective than seperating from the powers that be if they really don't care, and becoming a caring power that is. all it takes is the skill and know how, and lots of time. you got these? then make it happen, and push for the things you care about. you know, like a man.
oh. if these groups really exist, and have members, recieve public money, and are still anonymous, then something is wrong in michigan. every group i know of that makes the majority of it's money through the donation process must list the officers of that group. look into it, then you'll be armed with the information you seem to think does not exist.
by the way, these ramblings still have not brought anything into the light of day. we've asked. you still have not provided. we want to help, yet you seem determined to keep any actual information to yourself. makes it tough. kinda like you seem to think these groups are doing. maybe they are, but the tactic seems to be your preferred method as well.
Proudly declaring that you are NOT a land use organization and simply "a car club" certainly puts my original intentions as to forming a Michigan TLCA chapter here in perspective. It also answers a glaring question I've had from the beginning as to how somebody could ever go from leading a bunch of guys with this 'donate only' attitude...to becomming the #1 leader of the recipient of those same funds.
not "proudly" declaring anything. telling you what is up. you seem to think that somebody here is going to be your catalyst for change. we are a bunch of cruiser heads, all trying to do our part, whatever that might be, to wrench, work, spend family time, wheel, and keep the places we love to wheel open.
alot of us do this by donating to groups we feel most closely resemble our beliefs and intentions. we do this both as a club, and as individuals.
here in texas, we support our private parks. because that's where we wheel. lots of land, but not much is available, other than private. pay to play? yep. and it keeps the places open that we wheel. you might have to pay to play as well, and if so, then you don't have to worry about closures any more. and you are guaranteed a place to play. most places are not outrageous in the fees charged, and that works.
if you were, in fact, thinking of starting up a michigan chapter, then why did you come here in an antagonistic fashion, right from the get go? and why haven't you made any sense, ever? see, here's the rub. we want, and have asked for, specifics. you haven't given any. you talk about the largest trail system, yet provide no names, places, or details.
as members of chapters, we would be giving out every specific we could, in an attempt at making sure we got everybody on board to help with our fight.
and who exactly, went from "leading a bunch of guys" to being in charge of what group?
if it is indeed greg mumm to whom you refer, then i will re-iterate for you here that he never led us. he was a member, and still is. but he has never been a president of this club. fact checking works wonders. try it.
It's not about insisting that your position or anyone else's should 'rule the day' folks....it's about whether that undisputed and factually proven position ever actually sees 'the light of day' in the first place.(which is why you see nothing but personal attacks here....and not even one counter-claim or rebuttal on any of the issues brought forward for the sake of our future generation's opportunity to get involved in orv issues).
it seems as though this IS all about insisting your position rules the day. your position has attempted the light of day, but the nonsensical nature of it pretty much rules that out
there has been no counter claim or rebuttal for a couple of reasons. first and foremost, we are not in michigan. we do not know what is happening there, even with these supposed facts being tossed about by you.
if they are facts, give us useful information on it. then we pass it on to the groups who are involved at the political level, thereby attempting to put that info in the hands of those who daily are involved in this fight. you still have not given us specific information, pointed us to anything other than that the meeting was posted late, nor have you given info as to which groups are showing up to these meetings. if the majority Is motorcycle, guess what happens. if you feel you are being squeezed out, make sure the ohv group shows up to represent an equal share. that's how it works.
if you are the only person showing up, well, you won't be able to make much of a fight. but if two hundred show up, now you're talking. try that. we as a club, can not all come to michigan to stand up with you. sorry. start up a t.l.c.a. chapter, and create your army from there. the future generation will fight for this of it's own accord. we fight for ourselves and for them, but make no mistake, they will fight of their own volition. ask any parent of a teen ager. we have to be cohesive, and you do that through the larger mass of these land use orgs, and through showing up to meetings, and showing your support of all land users, not just yourself.
and getting physically involved. clean ups, trail maintenance, emergency aid, all ways to better your self to those that make these decisions.
And if you guys are about describing yourselves as simply/only "a car club" while covering the land use/maintenance/legacy part of our off-road responsibilities with an unquestioned "donation only" and a bumper sticker to sone far-off west-focused national organization...then I'm saying that your kids will most certainly miss out on the grass-roots involvement needed in their future quests to access those same lands that you do so together today.
i'd like to point out that we are in fact, a car club. i know it's difficult to understand, but that is what t.l.c.a. is. we donate to land use groups, to make our money count through those who do that for a living. we also go to meetings in our local areas, write our congress people, and generally do our best to be heard above the din. if all land users got together, we'd BE the din, but there seems to be too much infighting for this to occur. i also donate through my mountain bike club, and through my kayak club. i pay my fees to public parks as a photographer to gain acces to areas i might not otherwise see.
i do not have a land use bumper sticker. i do have bumper stickers for the places i wheel, thereby throwing a little more money to the groups that are maintaining our wheeling lands. if you feel that all land use is focused out west, then start an east focused land use group. simple, eh?
it's 2006. there are no grassroots involvement any more. direct acces to the forest service via the web, and phone. direct acces to land use groups via web and phone. direct acces to elected officials via web and phone. all you need do is call or email anybody involved and you are then directly involved in which ever way you see fit.
if you feel your particular concerns are not being addressed, then become one of those listed above. start a chapter, and recruit like minded people, who love being outdoors, and want to fight to keep it open as much as you do. if you spent half as much time doing positive work as you do rambling incessantly here, then you'd be going in the right direction. disparagement thrown at you has been disparagement thrown back at you. you have done nothing but deride us, and yet we still ask you for the needed info to try to help you, and to help us understand.
'Bumper stickers' don't stop motorcyclists from shutting down our trails forever or being dragged kicking and screaming into this majority community and the 60" width law that they've wanted us to ignore for years...orv leaders who don't have to strap a set on for every question asked...DO.
ummmm, okay, i guess.? that doesn't even really make sense, but i'll try.
if you wish this to be an "our" situation, you MUST give us specific info, what groups are representing, which groups are not, and names of both open and closed trails of which you refer. otherwise, this is all frivilous, and a giant waste of time and woody's server.
if it is help you seek, then give that which is asked. specifics. your name. your land use affiliations, your actual concerns, not these various, inconsequential ramblings.
we would like to help, but you are making it difficult. if you want help, now is the time to stop attempting to refute out of context quotes, and give us the necessary info to help you make the changes you seem to be seeking. and as soon as you give this information, we'll consider YOU to have set.
still justin, still #5501, and still trying to figure this all out.
