Do others speak out on land issues or not?
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I am gonn go home and drink a lot to try to understand what this guy says...
I'm thinkin that seriously fuzzy eyes will help me understand.
I still have no idea what area this guy is talking about.
I'm thinkin that seriously fuzzy eyes will help me understand.
I still have no idea what area this guy is talking about.
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mace, it's because he doesn't either.
if he did he would
1. tell us who he is.(like a man)
2 tell us specific trail names and places.(like a man)
3. figure out t.l.c.a is a car club that donates to land use orgs, NOT a land use org.
4. finally, and most importantly, say it without all the quotes, italics, and bolds, so that it sounded conversational, not like charlie manson rants.
5. be a man, act like a man, and step up and give us specifics, in such a way that we can forward your concerns to the proper groups. we at this club, however are not the proper group. we can only do so much, and in this case, even less, since these rants are nonsensical at best, and malice at worst.
6. i'm justin. t.l.c.a. member 5501, b.o.d. delegate, and land user in many and varied forms.(now that was manly
)
if he did he would
1. tell us who he is.(like a man)
2 tell us specific trail names and places.(like a man)
3. figure out t.l.c.a is a car club that donates to land use orgs, NOT a land use org.
4. finally, and most importantly, say it without all the quotes, italics, and bolds, so that it sounded conversational, not like charlie manson rants.
5. be a man, act like a man, and step up and give us specifics, in such a way that we can forward your concerns to the proper groups. we at this club, however are not the proper group. we can only do so much, and in this case, even less, since these rants are nonsensical at best, and malice at worst.
6. i'm justin. t.l.c.a. member 5501, b.o.d. delegate, and land user in many and varied forms.(now that was manly
)
John, Once again I must ask what YOU have done other than run your alligator mouth off to address these issues you seem to have with all of these organizations? 
I have an idea for you. Why don't you saddle up your brand spankin' new bright yellow FJ from Michigan and attend a TLCA event and discuss these issues like a rationale adult? Come awn, John! Form a group in Michigan with your passionate beliefs and take the bull by the horn. Why do you need TLCA? "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." Other than irritating the various TLCA members that visit this forum, what kind of effect do you honestly think your having by rambling on this non-sense? Your merely making a name for yourself and this cruiser community is relatively small. Try a different approach, John!
I have an idea for you. Why don't you saddle up your brand spankin' new bright yellow FJ from Michigan and attend a TLCA event and discuss these issues like a rationale adult? Come awn, John! Form a group in Michigan with your passionate beliefs and take the bull by the horn. Why do you need TLCA? "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." Other than irritating the various TLCA members that visit this forum, what kind of effect do you honestly think your having by rambling on this non-sense? Your merely making a name for yourself and this cruiser community is relatively small. Try a different approach, John!
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(insert best elvis impersonation here) thank you, thank you very much.
now, somebody bring me peanut butter and nanner sandwich!!!!
now, somebody bring me peanut butter and nanner sandwich!!!!
...And we were all looking forward to your interpertation of this non-sense - Joined
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Which is exactly why land use organizations and local orv leaders treat the majority orv community out there with such little respect; as I've described in detail above.
You guys may enjoy being told to keep your mouths shut when motorcyclists grab our land/put up barriers; 50 vs 60" trail issues are rightly debated or even when 'untouchable' anonymous councils are brought out into the light of day...yet frankly, this is where blindly 'donating' only stops for me.
Proudly declaring that you are NOT a land use organization and simply "a car club" certainly puts my original intentions as to forming a Michigan TLCA chapter here in perspective. It also answers a glaring question I've had from the beginning as to how somebody could ever go from leading a bunch of guys with this 'donate only' attitude...to becomming the #1 leader of the recipient of those same funds.
It's not about insisting that your position or anyone else's should 'rule the day' folks....it's about whether that undisputed and factually proven position ever actually sees 'the light of day' in the first place.(which is why you see nothing but personal attacks here....and not even one counter-claim or rebuttal on any of the issues brought forward for the sake of our future generation's opportunity to get involved in orv issues).
And if you guys are about describing yourselves as simply/only "a car club" while covering the land use/maintenance/legacy part of our off-road responsibilities with an unquestioned "donation only" and a bumper sticker to sone far-off west-focused national organization...then I'm saying that your kids will most certainly miss out on the grass-roots involvement needed in their future quests to access those same lands that you do so together today.
'Bumper stickers' don't stop motorcyclists from shutting down our trails forever or being dragged kicking and screaming into this majority community and the 60" width law that they've wanted us to ignore for years...orv leaders who don't have to strap a set on for every question asked...DO.
How familiar are you really with the local ORV/OHV leaders and the land use organizations? Your not a member of either of them, so it makes me wonder if your truly as passionate as you claim to be or your merely a web wheeler. I can truly understand why no one is listening or supporting your issues-because they don't respect you; They do support the TLCA organization and the many land use organizations that our members contribute to throughout the year.
I doubt you ever had any intentions of forming a Michigan TLCA chapter. If you did, you would have taken the bull by the horns and initiated the process. Let's face it, you are full of hot air and have no desire to contribute or participate. All talk and no action. Just curious how many other Michigan cruzah owners are supporting your belief's or efforts...
I doubt you ever had any intentions of forming a Michigan TLCA chapter. If you did, you would have taken the bull by the horns and initiated the process. Let's face it, you are full of hot air and have no desire to contribute or participate. All talk and no action. Just curious how many other Michigan cruzah owners are supporting your belief's or efforts...
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So I've followed this thread for a while now and finally see a few of the issues you seem to have with BRC, Greg Mumm and TLCA for donating to BRC. It seems to take you a lot more verbiage to say what's on your mind then it most folks, but to each his own. So far all I've read are complaints.
In as few words as possible (I'm fairly simple and get bored with mindless dribble quickly), what are the solutions as YOU see them. Then how can the solutions be achieved?
In as few words as possible (I'm fairly simple and get bored with mindless dribble quickly), what are the solutions as YOU see them. Then how can the solutions be achieved?
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Another FYI:
Motorcycle "clubs" ignore critical and contoversial issues such as 'sissy' sound levels and fight hard for the 'right to choose' involving helmet use.
Responsible legacy-driven orv activists take the opposite stance on both and reject the idea of any fellow light orv rider seaparating himself from us all over some kind of god-given right to shut down non-paralell trails to the rest of us.
National leaders keep their mouth shut on all of the above and much more (incl. 'pay-to-play') for the simple reason that standing up like a man on any of theseimportant issues may affect his income directly by reduced contributions from one or possibly both of the above.
I would send my money in all day long to the responsible legacy-driven orv activist.....yet how many hundreds do you think I've wasted already on "who's going to bring the weenies/beer this weekend" clubs insisting that displaying a national orv organization 'bumper sticker' is all the additional involvement I need put forward?(and by gosh don't ask any questions of them...or us!).
Motorcycle "clubs" ignore critical and contoversial issues such as 'sissy' sound levels and fight hard for the 'right to choose' involving helmet use.
Responsible legacy-driven orv activists take the opposite stance on both and reject the idea of any fellow light orv rider seaparating himself from us all over some kind of god-given right to shut down non-paralell trails to the rest of us.
National leaders keep their mouth shut on all of the above and much more (incl. 'pay-to-play') for the simple reason that standing up like a man on any of theseimportant issues may affect his income directly by reduced contributions from one or possibly both of the above.
I would send my money in all day long to the responsible legacy-driven orv activist.....yet how many hundreds do you think I've wasted already on "who's going to bring the weenies/beer this weekend" clubs insisting that displaying a national orv organization 'bumper sticker' is all the additional involvement I need put forward?(and by gosh don't ask any questions of them...or us!).
well, based on your posts and irrational threads in various forums, I venture to believe that you have spent nothing more than hot air. Many of us have asked over and over, what is your solution to the various land use issues? If you don't have a solution (or atleast an idea) and your not a member of TLCA or any of the various land use organizations that exist, why should we even entertain your ramblings any further? Take your weenies/beer and find another forum to annoy folks.
I figured out something in the rambles!!!!
One thing you have to think about. All OHV use is threattened. Snomobile, bike, motorcycle etc.. We all have to work together for a solution. Slamming the other OHV'ers is counterproductive. If they are trying to get a certain area desiginated to their use work with them. Give them a "safe" place to play lto make sure that they are nto getting picked off my the larger vehicles.
BTW,
WTF is a legacy driven OHV activist??
Second, the sierra club as done amazingly well with bumper stickers. Don't belittle the little things
So, what was your TLCA # again?
One thing you have to think about. All OHV use is threattened. Snomobile, bike, motorcycle etc.. We all have to work together for a solution. Slamming the other OHV'ers is counterproductive. If they are trying to get a certain area desiginated to their use work with them. Give them a "safe" place to play lto make sure that they are nto getting picked off my the larger vehicles.
BTW,
WTF is a legacy driven OHV activist??
Second, the sierra club as done amazingly well with bumper stickers. Don't belittle the little things
So, what was your TLCA # again?
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so, being a car club gets us treated with less respect? don't see how but ok.and i'm still looking for detail in any thing you have posted here.
now if you are referring to the fact that i said we are a car club that donates, not a land use org, then your response still doesn't make any sense.we donate, have people who are active in land use, and people who go to meetings, write letters, and get the work done by being out there, playing to win.
nobody has once ever told me to keep my mouth shut about land use issues. if this is the way you are being treated, there are two possibilities.
1. stop whining, rambling, incoherent rabble rousing. use thought out, concise, point making presentations. try it, you might like how it works.
2. stop being involved with the groups that are doing this(assuming it's not just trying to keep YOU quiet...) and start your own land use group. nothing is more effective than seperating from the powers that be if they really don't care, and becoming a caring power that is. all it takes is the skill and know how, and lots of time. you got these? then make it happen, and push for the things you care about. you know, like a man.
oh. if these groups really exist, and have members, recieve public money, and are still anonymous, then something is wrong in michigan. every group i know of that makes the majority of it's money through the donation process must list the officers of that group. look into it, then you'll be armed with the information you seem to think does not exist.
by the way, these ramblings still have not brought anything into the light of day. we've asked. you still have not provided. we want to help, yet you seem determined to keep any actual information to yourself. makes it tough. kinda like you seem to think these groups are doing. maybe they are, but the tactic seems to be your preferred method as well.
not "proudly" declaring anything. telling you what is up. you seem to think that somebody here is going to be your catalyst for change. we are a bunch of cruiser heads, all trying to do our part, whatever that might be, to wrench, work, spend family time, wheel, and keep the places we love to wheel open.
alot of us do this by donating to groups we feel most closely resemble our beliefs and intentions. we do this both as a club, and as individuals.
here in texas, we support our private parks. because that's where we wheel. lots of land, but not much is available, other than private. pay to play? yep. and it keeps the places open that we wheel. you might have to pay to play as well, and if so, then you don't have to worry about closures any more. and you are guaranteed a place to play. most places are not outrageous in the fees charged, and that works.
if you were, in fact, thinking of starting up a michigan chapter, then why did you come here in an antagonistic fashion, right from the get go? and why haven't you made any sense, ever? see, here's the rub. we want, and have asked for, specifics. you haven't given any. you talk about the largest trail system, yet provide no names, places, or details.
as members of chapters, we would be giving out every specific we could, in an attempt at making sure we got everybody on board to help with our fight.
and who exactly, went from "leading a bunch of guys" to being in charge of what group?
if it is indeed greg mumm to whom you refer, then i will re-iterate for you here that he never led us. he was a member, and still is. but he has never been a president of this club. fact checking works wonders. try it.
it seems as though this IS all about insisting your position rules the day. your position has attempted the light of day, but the nonsensical nature of it pretty much rules that out
there has been no counter claim or rebuttal for a couple of reasons. first and foremost, we are not in michigan. we do not know what is happening there, even with these supposed facts being tossed about by you.
if they are facts, give us useful information on it. then we pass it on to the groups who are involved at the political level, thereby attempting to put that info in the hands of those who daily are involved in this fight. you still have not given us specific information, pointed us to anything other than that the meeting was posted late, nor have you given info as to which groups are showing up to these meetings. if the majority Is motorcycle, guess what happens. if you feel you are being squeezed out, make sure the ohv group shows up to represent an equal share. that's how it works.
if you are the only person showing up, well, you won't be able to make much of a fight. but if two hundred show up, now you're talking. try that. we as a club, can not all come to michigan to stand up with you. sorry. start up a t.l.c.a. chapter, and create your army from there. the future generation will fight for this of it's own accord. we fight for ourselves and for them, but make no mistake, they will fight of their own volition. ask any parent of a teen ager. we have to be cohesive, and you do that through the larger mass of these land use orgs, and through showing up to meetings, and showing your support of all land users, not just yourself.
and getting physically involved. clean ups, trail maintenance, emergency aid, all ways to better your self to those that make these decisions.
i'd like to point out that we are in fact, a car club. i know it's difficult to understand, but that is what t.l.c.a. is. we donate to land use groups, to make our money count through those who do that for a living. we also go to meetings in our local areas, write our congress people, and generally do our best to be heard above the din. if all land users got together, we'd BE the din, but there seems to be too much infighting for this to occur. i also donate through my mountain bike club, and through my kayak club. i pay my fees to public parks as a photographer to gain acces to areas i might not otherwise see.
i do not have a land use bumper sticker. i do have bumper stickers for the places i wheel, thereby throwing a little more money to the groups that are maintaining our wheeling lands. if you feel that all land use is focused out west, then start an east focused land use group. simple, eh?
it's 2006. there are no grassroots involvement any more. direct acces to the forest service via the web, and phone. direct acces to land use groups via web and phone. direct acces to elected officials via web and phone. all you need do is call or email anybody involved and you are then directly involved in which ever way you see fit.
if you feel your particular concerns are not being addressed, then become one of those listed above. start a chapter, and recruit like minded people, who love being outdoors, and want to fight to keep it open as much as you do. if you spent half as much time doing positive work as you do rambling incessantly here, then you'd be going in the right direction. disparagement thrown at you has been disparagement thrown back at you. you have done nothing but deride us, and yet we still ask you for the needed info to try to help you, and to help us understand.
ummmm, okay, i guess.? that doesn't even really make sense, but i'll try.
if you wish this to be an "our" situation, you MUST give us specific info, what groups are representing, which groups are not, and names of both open and closed trails of which you refer. otherwise, this is all frivilous, and a giant waste of time and woody's server.
if it is help you seek, then give that which is asked. specifics. your name. your land use affiliations, your actual concerns, not these various, inconsequential ramblings.
we would like to help, but you are making it difficult. if you want help, now is the time to stop attempting to refute out of context quotes, and give us the necessary info to help you make the changes you seem to be seeking. and as soon as you give this information, we'll consider YOU to have set.
still justin, still #5501, and still trying to figure this all out.
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Cheers to you guys for continuing this
Here's the deal John -- You should form a group of like minded Michigan four wheel drive people. Maybe they all drive Toyotas, maybe they don't. If they do, and you choose to be aligned with TLCA, we can sanction your club.
This will gain you two things -
1 You will have a vote in how TLCA operates.
2 You will have access to TLCA's insurance.
So what you might ask? So, that means that your like minded members would be able to do a little fundraising (say have a trail run)... Let's call it "Save the Nation's Largest Trail system" -- You would be able to Advertise it in Toyota Trails, and you would be able to get insurance for this event at a much reduced cost. Then your group could use those funds as you see fit. And maybe you could tap into the TLCA resources.
Or -- Well, I guess you could continue to yell into the ether, and hope that someone will be impressed that Michigan has the largest trail system.
And really, if Michigan DOES have the largest trail system, what's wrong with segregating it, and letting motorcyclists have their own area? I find it much better if they are in their own system, causing their own damage. Cow Mountain out here in California has a similar set up, with 4 Wheel Drive trails seperate from the Motorcyle / ATV trails. Seems to work really well.
Here's the deal John -- You should form a group of like minded Michigan four wheel drive people. Maybe they all drive Toyotas, maybe they don't. If they do, and you choose to be aligned with TLCA, we can sanction your club.
This will gain you two things -
1 You will have a vote in how TLCA operates.
2 You will have access to TLCA's insurance.
So what you might ask? So, that means that your like minded members would be able to do a little fundraising (say have a trail run)... Let's call it "Save the Nation's Largest Trail system" -- You would be able to Advertise it in Toyota Trails, and you would be able to get insurance for this event at a much reduced cost. Then your group could use those funds as you see fit. And maybe you could tap into the TLCA resources.
Or -- Well, I guess you could continue to yell into the ether, and hope that someone will be impressed that Michigan has the largest trail system.
And really, if Michigan DOES have the largest trail system, what's wrong with segregating it, and letting motorcyclists have their own area? I find it much better if they are in their own system, causing their own damage. Cow Mountain out here in California has a similar set up, with 4 Wheel Drive trails seperate from the Motorcyle / ATV trails. Seems to work really well.
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not surprisingly, there is already a group of organized 4wd clubs within Michigan....Great Lakes 4wd Association. Their past president was quite active with United 4wd Association and he was based out of Detroit, IIRC...
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I love it how you guys invoke the UFWDA whenever it suits your point of the moment....yet when "I" point out the hugely important problems this same organization faces in regard to simple NATIONWIDE width issues neither you nor the national orv organizations eveidently have the stones to address....the attacks begin.
Gee, woody....do you think the UFWDA issues statements like this http://www.ufwda.org/ (see ALERT! Sept. 1st, 2006 on far left) because they simply didn't have anything else to do that day?
.....or does the UFWDA have to toil away in obscurity and definitely 'outside' our (quote/unquote) 'orv community' on this one...BECAUSE THE MICHIGAN MOTORCYCLE COMMUNITY HAS ALREADY QUICKLY KILLED THE CONCEPT OF 60" TRAILS IN MICHIGAN AS A THREAT TO BOTH "THEIR" TRAILS AND "THEIR" REVENUE SOURCE(S)!
If the Great Lakes 4WD Association is 'my' resource for getting things done in Michigan....why can't we get a word from anybody as to how each and every one of these groups represents us to the powers that be each and every day?
Is that such a difficult concept for you or anybody else on here to understand?
Or would you rather see representative groups sneek around for two years after forming...dodging all questions and requests for even identification of its members....and then "here we are!" materialize in one paragraph (below) wielding a damn "this is the way it will be" sword? www.michigan.gov/documents/May2006Minutes_160784_7.pdf (page 3 under "Michigan Motorized Recreation Council").
For pete's sake, Woody....after it was made plainly clear that these guys were not only unidentifiable but untouchable when it came to rubber-stamping every member of that board....WHY IN THE HE11 DO YOU THINK THAT NOBODY BOTHERED TO SHOW UP AT THE NEXT 3 MONTH MEETING? (one cyclist and one atver right in the middle of the most important juncture in this massive system's history?).
It's about being straight forward and upfront folks....not sneaking around behind everybody's back because there are literally millions of dollars at stake here and that publicly lobbying in this manner to begin with puts into question a lot of legal questions involving just what is allowed and what isn't. (we've got a voted on proposal tomorrow expected to free up even more orv-related millions that will most likely never be debated in public any more than our present ongoing orv community position on fee increases and how they should be spent).
Our kids aren't going to learn a damn thing from operating like this except the realization that legacies are evidently built on operating just outside the reach of the law and that all dissenters should be met with character assasinations both immediate and without prejudice.
You may want to raise your kids to pick up the sword in this manner....I simply won't.
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