Do others speak out on land issues or not?
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Unidentifiable? Pot meet Kettle..
People don't show up sometimes because they have lives as well. It is typically not the full time job to put on a cape and fix global issues. I could easily be wrong with the assessment because I still don;t know exactly where you are talking about because you are being so vague.
I would love for you to be straight and upfront with your issues. What do you as a non TLCA member specifically want them to do for you? Just say what you want and then please, go away.. If people agree with you, it might happen if not, hey, you have said your peace (a lot of pieces at that) and you can go about feeling good about yourself.
Again, What do you want people to do? show up to meetings? Donate to??? Come up with something usefull instead of stating that a couple of "well known" people are not doing what you wantt hem to without actually stating what they should be doing..
I want to see YOU be straight forward and upfront.
I'll raise my kids anyway I see fit, and it is their responsibility to do the same. I hope that the direction you give your kids (if you even have any) is certianly more direct than this diatribe. If not, they are gonna be very confused little children.. Trust me, I read this to my 3 year old thinking he could distill some gleam of info out of it. Nope, no luck there. the movie Tremors 3 was more interesting..
Again, what are your intentions? If you are gonna complain be specific.. Man up amigo or just simply, go away..
How do you draw the conclusion that no one has "the stones" (who's attacking who here?)
Why must you attack woody (aka Brian)? Is he a land use representative?
60" trails aren't wide enough either. So now what?
See my post above -- I (woooody, not woody) suggested to you that you form a club with a group of like minded individuals. Woody (no woooody) suggest that there is a club, that may contain like minded individuals. It's a free country, do what you want. Which is apparently hanging out here beating the dead horse.
Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks?
Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? opps -- guess not
Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? sorry... Guess I already asked that. Of course, you've already asked this question over and over. You're just asking the wrong group
Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? <shaking> never mind</shaking>
Here's the thing -- What are YOU teaching YOUR kids? Are you teaching them that they should bug the Algebra teacher when they aren't happy with their Science grade? I mean, following your logic, both teachers are responsible for the education of your kid. So, either one should be able to address you concern, right?
Is it possible for you to post one paragraph without resorting to HTML tricks? -- Oh, that's right, I already asked you that. So have several others.
Really, I'm impressed. You even have text size changes around empty text. Very impressive...
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ok. so i looked at the link to this orv meeting in lansing michigan. here is what i found, in no particular order.
1. meeting held with officers, members and land use decision makers in attendance.
2. people made note of things being done, none of which appeared to be limiting use in ANY way.
3. trails being worked on, so as to be re-opened for further public use of same. apparently, the groups showing up to work on these projects side by side with the policy makers were motorcycle groups. so, that's why you are pissed. they showed up to do the physical labor, and you expect the decisions to go in your favor because you can blow a lot of hot air? all that gets you is a balloon that floats.
i already suggested you needed to get a bunch of folks together, roll up your sleeves and help out on trail maintenance. if it's working for the m.c. guys, guess what? it'll work for you.
4. during public address time ( three minutes given to those who wished to do so) several points and counterpoints were made. the minutes accurately reflected even the dissenters on the issues they had problems with( what i interpret that to mean: nobody told anybody to shut their mouths. contradictory to what you have been saying.)
5. there were 26 members of user groups in attendance. that's the public, people. you and i. here's the breakdown of those in attendance:
26 total members of the general public, who are land users via motorized vehicles.
7 of whom are atv'ers.
5 that are motorcyclists.
ok now hang on to your hats people.....
10 that are orv users.
too bad wheelers aren't getting represented well at these meetings. oops
and three whose affiliation was not listed.
that's approximately 26% atv, 19% motorcyclist, 38% orv, and 12% i didn't know how to group.
so if there are more orv users in attendance at meetings, but more cyclists in attendance at trail repair and maintenace functions, how do you think they are winning? must be working side by side with policy makers, proving they are responsible users, and never forget what you've always known, it is about who you know. the cyclists are getting to know the right people, and you aren't. jibber jabber means nothing. proving your self useful and making friends does. see what you are doing wrong here yet?
thanks for providing a useful link that now tells us some things that are helpful
motorcyclists in michigan are busting hump and getting what they want. orv users in michigan are trying to filibust, and it isn't getting what they want. time to try some hard work to make that happen. oh, and 50 inch vs. 60 inch? well, neither one would work for me. i drive a 60, and wagons ain't skinny.so i could see how this upsets you, but you guys aren't doing the work. the cyclists are. you need to get together with them, or bust your own hump on similar projects. then you will see more action that works in your favor. you guys need to prepare better, and get out and work for it.
your time here is drawing to a close, since even your own points argue against you, not for you.:whoops: you are gonna have to do better than that.
oh, and no refuting out of context. refute the whole phrase or paragraph, or let it go. out of context rebuttal means nothing. only that you can only make a point when ignoring all else, and those points don't count.
as far as the kids are concerned, if my child could only speak in the fashion you seem to favor,(vagueries, and nonsense) then he would probably never get anything he wanted either. you must learn to speak more concisely. try it. you might like it, and i know we will appreciate it.
having done this somewhat with this last post, we now know for example, that your own attempts at derision, in fact deride you, not the group you used for this. fair and above board is what i was seeing. you guys get anything different from that?
1. meeting held with officers, members and land use decision makers in attendance.
2. people made note of things being done, none of which appeared to be limiting use in ANY way.
3. trails being worked on, so as to be re-opened for further public use of same. apparently, the groups showing up to work on these projects side by side with the policy makers were motorcycle groups. so, that's why you are pissed. they showed up to do the physical labor, and you expect the decisions to go in your favor because you can blow a lot of hot air? all that gets you is a balloon that floats.
i already suggested you needed to get a bunch of folks together, roll up your sleeves and help out on trail maintenance. if it's working for the m.c. guys, guess what? it'll work for you.
4. during public address time ( three minutes given to those who wished to do so) several points and counterpoints were made. the minutes accurately reflected even the dissenters on the issues they had problems with( what i interpret that to mean: nobody told anybody to shut their mouths. contradictory to what you have been saying.)
5. there were 26 members of user groups in attendance. that's the public, people. you and i. here's the breakdown of those in attendance:
26 total members of the general public, who are land users via motorized vehicles.
7 of whom are atv'ers.
5 that are motorcyclists.
ok now hang on to your hats people.....
10 that are orv users.
too bad wheelers aren't getting represented well at these meetings. oops
and three whose affiliation was not listed.
that's approximately 26% atv, 19% motorcyclist, 38% orv, and 12% i didn't know how to group.
so if there are more orv users in attendance at meetings, but more cyclists in attendance at trail repair and maintenace functions, how do you think they are winning? must be working side by side with policy makers, proving they are responsible users, and never forget what you've always known, it is about who you know. the cyclists are getting to know the right people, and you aren't. jibber jabber means nothing. proving your self useful and making friends does. see what you are doing wrong here yet?
thanks for providing a useful link that now tells us some things that are helpful
motorcyclists in michigan are busting hump and getting what they want. orv users in michigan are trying to filibust, and it isn't getting what they want. time to try some hard work to make that happen. oh, and 50 inch vs. 60 inch? well, neither one would work for me. i drive a 60, and wagons ain't skinny.so i could see how this upsets you, but you guys aren't doing the work. the cyclists are. you need to get together with them, or bust your own hump on similar projects. then you will see more action that works in your favor. you guys need to prepare better, and get out and work for it.
your time here is drawing to a close, since even your own points argue against you, not for you.:whoops: you are gonna have to do better than that.
oh, and no refuting out of context. refute the whole phrase or paragraph, or let it go. out of context rebuttal means nothing. only that you can only make a point when ignoring all else, and those points don't count.
as far as the kids are concerned, if my child could only speak in the fashion you seem to favor,(vagueries, and nonsense) then he would probably never get anything he wanted either. you must learn to speak more concisely. try it. you might like it, and i know we will appreciate it.
having done this somewhat with this last post, we now know for example, that your own attempts at derision, in fact deride you, not the group you used for this. fair and above board is what i was seeing. you guys get anything different from that?
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ok. so i looked at the link to this orv meeting in lansing michigan. here is what i found, in no particular order.
"...1. meeting held with officers, members and land use decision makers in attendance....."
Could you please show us where this was ever in dispute?
"...2. people made note of things being done, none of which appeared to be limiting use in ANY way...."
"People" didn't make "notes" of this meeting; as this is a state DNR penned version of the events which transcribed here absent the official stenographer we lost recently to prove any different.
Again, you claim "limiting use" was the main issue brought up earlier....are you just making up these issues as you go along to somehow prove everything otherwise?
"...3. trails being worked on, so as to be re-opened for further public use of same. apparently, the groups showing up to work on these projects side by side with the policy makers were motorcycle groups. so, that's why you are pissed. they showed up to do the physical labor, and you expect the decisions to go in your favor because you can blow a lot of hot air?...."
Amazing!
You not only have the ability to dream up these us-against-them-we-do-all-the-work scenarios all by yourself...but still have enough energy left over to throw in a verbal attack....to boot!
Let me guess....you're a former motorcyclist, also!!!
You know, if you hone those rudely arrogant attack-like skills just a bit more....you could be on the fast-track for a board position on one of our national orv non-profits! (quick 'skill-set' question for your obvious fast-track trip upwards to the 'bigboy' non-profit: can you force the public to contact their DNR regarding the announcement of orv-sponsored USFS workshops...after claiming that national orv organizations have already tried to "force' same and failed?....hey, you're hired!).
"...4. during public address time ( three minutes given to those who wished to do so)...."
You are actually given "5" minutes if you request more time beforehand....that is if the chairman and DNR falsely claim to have 'lost' your documented right to be given that extra time....and rudely shout you off the podium (yet I digress...)
".....several points and counterpoints were made. the minutes accurately reflected even the dissenters on the issues they had problems with( what i interpret that to mean: nobody told anybody to shut their mouths. contradictory to what you have been saying.)...."
Nobody is allowed to ask any questions at these meetings and nobody is required to give any answers. You are allowed to speak if you aren't lied to as to your documented request....and that's it....every 3 months.
The above is a factual statement proven year after year and a fact of life that national orv leaders won't discuss with you for a second. It's their 'buddies' shoving this garbage down our throats at these strictly "this is the way it's going to be' meetings....AND THE PUBLIC HAS HAD NO DAMN RIGHT TO Q&A THESE PEOPLE IN A RECORDED PUBLIC SETTING....AND NEVER WILL.
"...5. there were 26 members of user groups in attendance. that's the public, people. you and i. here's the breakdown of those in attendance:
26 total members of the general public, who are land users via motorized vehicles.
7 of whom are atv'ers.
5 that are motorcyclists.
ok now hang on to your hats people.....
10 that are orv users.
too bad wheelers aren't getting represented well at these meetings. oops
and three whose affiliation was not listed.
that's approximately 26% atv, 19% motorcyclist, 38% orv, and 12% i didn't know how to group....."
The meeting I referred to above 3 months AFTER these bozos showed up claiming that they would indeed make all further decisions anonymously (the last meeting we had http://www.michigan.gov/documents/August2006Minutes_169969_7.pdf ) reflects nothing of the intentional mis-direction you try to accomplish above.
Nobody showed up....because nobody figured that they HAD to show up after these idiots flat out implied that thwere was a "new sherrif in town" that would unanimously carry our board each and every time HUGE issues like this surfaced....and WITHOUT any damn 'prolonged discussion' from anybody in attendance (again, the public couldn't question these guys if they wanted to at these meetings....and they know it!).
"....so if there are more orv users in attendance at meetings, but more cyclists in attendance at trail repair and maintenace functions, how do you think they are winning? must be working side by side with policy makers, proving they are responsible users, and never forget what you've always known, it is about who you know. the cyclists are getting to know the right people, and you aren't. jibber jabber means nothing. proving your self useful and making friends does. see what you are doing wrong here yet?..."
You've got it all figured out....haven't you?
No access for the people and no access for any orv group that dares question the people's access.....and the cycle group BECOMES THE 'GATEKEEPER' for all orv-related discussion! (while reserving the right to attack any and all comers with "you're not involved" or "we do the work" while monopolizing any and all funding issues to boot!
And where do you think these millions GO at the largest system out there?....to guys suggesting that we triple percentages for their buddy's training subsidies....with all other program percentages remaining the same? (hey, maybe the fund can go back to these guys making $60 per kid to 'administer' |(NOT TEACH) these training classes! or charging parents to sit in on their kid's sessions!
Ran out of time.
Yeah, close the damn thread after some of you now know how many of these national organizations protect this kind of crap with literally millions on the line presently just waiting to go into "somebody's" pocket.
I choose to sleep at night as opposed to protecting those who damn well don't deserve it. (isn't it strange how THE TRUTH gets more views here than any other thread in the history of this land use forum?...and what does this say about others out there possibly questioning similiar issues in their state?).
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it says you are a car wreck, and everyone takes a peek at the carnage.
at least you still continue to so pathetically rely on your use of caps, bold, italics, color, and such versus addressing the issue.
with you on their side, it's no wonder there are 4wd land use problems in Michigan...please, please, please, please NEVER move to another state or take up another cause....
please.
BTW: according to the DNR website, there is a meeting scheduled of the Trail Advisory Board...Nov 8th, 6:30pm...
http://www.midnr.com/pulications/pdfs/ForestsLandWater/ORV/2006ORV-SCHEDULE.pdf
you only live 75 miles away, and it's all interstate...should be easy to leave work at 5p and make the meeting in time. I'd love to read your personal report on what transpires.
http://www.midnr.com/pulications/pdfs/ForestsLandWater/ORV/2006ORV-SCHEDULE.pdf
you only live 75 miles away, and it's all interstate...should be easy to leave work at 5p and make the meeting in time. I'd love to read your personal report on what transpires.
Or, better yet, switch sides and start advocating for more land closures. We'd see the largest release of closed lands ever witnessed in the modern world.
But, seriously though. John, you may have some valid complaints, but how would anyone know when you can't articulate your points in any coherent manner?
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#1) Do not allow nationally backed motorcycle leaders OR the state DNR to cancel public meetings for up to 6 months at a time.
Do not allow follow-up minutes of said meetings to be delayed for up to 8 weeks at a time.
Demand that all proceedings be recorded (as was been done in the past) to pin down just who said what, when and where involving literally millions of OUR MONEY. (and if the state cries 'funding crisis' as they did when cutting our meeting dates to less than even the snowmobilers are allowed....PAY FOR THE DAMN STENOGRAPHER OURSELVES).
#2) Do not allow the state to delay board appointments for the sake of keeping their 'good 'ol cycle boys' on the board in leadership positions. The state has already extended one "I'm the boss, by gosh" term without public notification...and heads into the next soon to expire terms (December) without even a public call for applicants as of today. This has been done so many times it has been impossible to keep track of....and causes all applicant's requests to be strung out over such a long period of time; that their actual appointment dates become impossible to ascertain (causing many good people to not even be availiable when the state finally gets their crap together).
A follow up would be the exclusion of any apllicant who doesn't run an elected organization with his or her position being elected itself. We sufferred many years through just such a board member refusing to answer any of our questions and the state/other board members/orv clubs backing this kind of nonsense up with rude replies to everybody complianing about their voice not being heard...and we're sick of it.
#3) Do not allow ANY non-profit organization to purposely operate beyond their applied for and admitted operational status for the sole purpose of lobbying issues behind closed doors and anonymously. This creates the arrogant CRAP we have to deal with now and leads to the same kind of embarrasment this community suffered just recently when a prominent national and local orv leader was reprimanded for failing the same organizational skill-set that we 'supposedly' teach other clubs out there on the national level.
If we stand by and applaud those sneaking around with bags on their heads and operating blatantly on the fringes of lawful propriety....we are no different than anybody who gets caught red-handed with their hands in the cookie jar.(see the recent proposal here requesting the TRIPLING of subsidized training funds while leaving all other 'non-sessential' funding percentages the same).
There's three that don't even TOUCH the "issue" side of our sport and have driven this state into the flat out worst club participation rate in this country.(compare us with any state you would like of our size).
When you drive good people away year after year with this kind of nationally accepted rude arrogance....this is the kind of pay-no-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-curtain program that you receive.
Here's a good one.....how about simply demanding that these guys:
Board members may be contacted through the (DNR) staff assistant .....
.....quit ignoring our requests to simply publish their contact info like these 'men' do every day:
Printer Friendly 
Text Version 
Email Page 
Text Size[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Snowmobile Advisory Committee Members[/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]James W. Duke
Region I, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2006
N7719 Ridge Road
Munsing, MI 49862
906-387-3941
FAX 906-387-3954
e-mail: jimduke@up.net
William Lucas
Region II, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
6218 Avon Lane
Cadillac, MI 49601
231-775-4344
e-mail: bjluc@prodigy.net
William Manson, Jr. - Chair
Region III, Michigan Snowmobile Association Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
4336 Plainfield Ave., NE
Grand Rapids, MI 49525-1672
616-301-2743
FAX 616-363-0661
e-mail: billmsa@aol.com
Lee Murray
At-Large Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2006
PO Box 267
3150 Jefferson
Hopkins, MI 49328
269-793-7183
FAX 269-793-4022
e-mail: lee@sebrightproducts.com
Jack Nelson
Nelson's Speed Shop
Business Community Representative
2 year term expires 12/31/2007
4566 North Greenville Road
Greenville, MI 48838
616-754-9185
FAX 616-754-5780
e-mail: nelson@pathwaynet.com
Orville Olson
....etc.
[/SIZE][/FONT]....instead of forcing the public to go through 'the DNR' first??? (if you were running a state agency....wouldn't YOU like to be the 'gatekeeper' for all requests involving possible complaints about the job that YOU'RE doing???).
And the list goes on and on.....
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You ignored woody's post (#91). Let me repeat it:
BTW: according to the DNR website, there is a meeting scheduled of the Trail Advisory Board...Nov 8th, 6:30pm...
http://www.midnr.com/publications/pdfs/ForestsLandWater/ORV/2006ORV-SCHEDULE.pdf
you only live 75 miles away, and it's all interstate...should be easy to leave work at 5p and make the meeting in time. I'd love to read your personal report on what transpires.
Maybe using silly fonts will help you see it.
BTW: according to the DNR website, there is a meeting scheduled of the Trail Advisory Board...Nov 8th, 6:30pm...
http://www.midnr.com/publications/pdfs/ForestsLandWater/ORV/2006ORV-SCHEDULE.pdf
you only live 75 miles away, and it's all interstate...should be easy to leave work at 5p and make the meeting in time. I'd love to read your personal report on what transpires.
Maybe using silly fonts will help you see it.
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According to thier bylaws, there are only two elected positions. Chairman and vice chairman.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_22654-73972--,00.html
ARTICLE II
SECTION 1 - CHAIRPERSON AND VICE-CHAIRPERSON
The Officers of the Board shall consist of a Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson. Said officers shall serve for a period of one (1) year with the term to expire the final scheduled meeting of each calendar year. An annual election shall be held for Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson.
As for your concern that all you can do is speak, and not get answers, you need to get your questions onto their agenda.
Have you ever gone to a City Council meeting? Or any public agency meeting? Most only have a public comment section, and it's usually to speak about specific issues that are on that meetings Agenda. So if they are going to vote on snow mobile access, they give the public a chance to speak about it prior to voting. There is nothing in their bylaws that requires them to answer any public question. However, any Board Member has the ability to discuss those questions if they choose.
What you need to do is find a like minded individual on that Board. Their website doesn't show who is on it, or where they draw from. But I gaurantee that if you were part of a club, who was sanctioned by a nationally respected organization, you would have a little more clout.
Or, you can continue to yell at us, and hope that we can fix your problem. What was your member number again?
I will continue to predominate the acrimonious by virtue of the sesquipedialian desires of the broughams. You see the dirt bikers have spreathed all others into believing the thrutched the masses in an effort to pyrolize the DNR.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude, you have to warn someone before you do that. I now have to clean Pepsi out of my keyboard
And it really burns when it comes out your nose.
hillarious 
i used to be a dirt biker...does that make me evil incarnate? 