Cooling issues with CSF 2517 - what temp does your rig's A/C shut off?

[-Spike-]

thinking on it I think its just that the entire rad was hot and the extra heat from the trans cooler would have done that discoloration.

The trans cooler is in the lower tank. Nothing short of routing the exhaust through the radiator is going to blister the paint off. If the paint is damaged and that's not just dust in the pic, my best explanation is that the dust being pulled through the rad wore the (very thin) paint off. It's not evidence of a failure.

 

[hammerheadfistpunch]

The trans cooler is in the lower tank. Nothing short of routing the exhaust through the radiator is going to blister the paint off. If the paint is damaged and that's not just dust in the pic, my best explanation is that the dust being pulled through the rad wore the (very thin) paint off. It's not evidence of a failure.

The external trans color

The trans cooler is in the lower tank. Nothing short of routing the exhaust through the radiator is going to blister the paint off. If the paint is damaged and that's not just dust in the pic, my best explanation is that the dust being pulled through the rad wore the (very thin) paint off. It's not evidence of a failure.

The external trans cooler is right there in front of the AC condenser and would add heat in the specific area discolored.

 

[Tools R Us]

That's all we're saying: Some of us apparently received f*cked up CSF's.

Send it back for defective exchange?

 

[flintknapper]

The external trans color


The external trans cooler is right there in front of the AC condenser and would add heat in the specific area discolored.

Yes, but the heat produced from it is far from being a source that would discolor or damage paint.

 

[hammerheadfistpunch]

Yes, but the heat produced from it is far from being a source that would discolor or damage paint.

Is my best working theory. If the coolant is at 230 and the trans 240 there is a good chance the local heat at that spot is actually pretty damn hot

 

[Minuteman]

A report on my recent csf cooling experience from the mountains of NC
97 fzj80 250,000
2.5 emu 33s additonal 400 lbs of armor. Stock front bumper
Stock radiator cracked, so i replaced with a csf from spectre 4months ago and also new aisin blue hub with 50ml cst.
Thermostat replaced with german made stant 1 year ago. Running toyota red btw.
My temps climb to 225 pulling steep grades. 215 at most on more mild grades. Stays cool 195ish in 95f and slow traffic. Doesnt seem to change much pulling 2000lb trailer. Im just going to run it until it needs an hg...

 

[-Spike-]

The increased cooling capacity of the TYC rad over even the Koyo rad with similar construction has been experienced on several trucks and is not a fluke. Performance over copper is significantly better, regardless of all-metal or plastic tank construction. I don't think we've ever had such a direct comparison and documentation, very nice job. Too bad we'll keep having this discussion with folks, as these results are usually buried in long threads that no one wants to read to get to the juicy stuff. Perhaps @Bambusiero might consider creating a new thread and posting the results with lots of key words and whatnot?

To my knowledge, except for a couple of reported failures right out of the box which may or not have been imagined, none of the TYC rads that have been put into service have experienced any failures. Only a couple of years' history, but better than I expected when I first looked into it. I figured this was going to be a one-year rad, replaced as maintenance, and I was willing to do that for the exceptional cooling it offers.

 

[richardlillard1]

Rough estimation, but if mileage counts for anything my TYC has about 60-70k on it so far. It was installed spring of 2016.

It works well and I flush the coolant every six months or so.

 

[Bambusiero]

Nice work, had faith that you could get her done!
Not surprised, been there done that.

Thanks Kevin. I'll admit to having lost some faith on this issue, but stubbornness held out. Your gentle nudging helped a bit?
Had already replaced everything else, and every old replaced piece was in perfect working order -> now on the spares shelf.
Then - I've been told by a very experienced local Landcruiser guy "Some trucks just run hot.", which didn't sit well, but... could not deny on the evidence.
You have said elsewhere that the TYC "shed heat better" than others, and I believed you, but my bet going into this was... 5 degrees better.
Things just didn't add up, and was too hard for me to believe in this. Hallelujah! I believe now! (but still puzzled)

Glad you got good results.

But I maintain there is 'something' amiss with the 2517 that you have. Mine does not have any trouble cooling my 97 (albeit different conditions) and others don't report the 'wild' and rapid heating that you have experienced either.

I would expect an aluminum radiator to perform better (marginally) but not 27° F. better. Something is wrong with the 2517 you have.

Yes...but what? What can it be? I still want to find it. It bugs me.
Externally - looks great. tubes, fins, solder, etc - all look normal.
And proven to flow water very well - better than OEM, and better than TYC too. So much for that.
I mean - that's all a radiator IS, right? Oh yeah, almost forgot - and the Hydronic Thermal Plasma Inducer.
Theory - Mine has a small evil gnome inside with a bicycle pump and a blow torch.

Would be interesting to compare some with thermal imaging...see if there are hot/cold spots

Hmmm...thinking about how to do this...maybe, maybe. Too much stuff in the way on the truck.

Perhaps @Bambusiero might consider creating a new thread and posting the results with lots of key words and whatnot?

Since you suggest it, I will. Some delay expected.

Radiator removal:
Remove battery box - Yes, do this.
Remove grill- Yes, do this.
Remove passenger side headlight and side marker light - Yes, do this.
I was able to reach the drivers side front radiator nut (barely) with a wobbly deep socket, without headlight removal. Not so on PS.
Maybe the 80's headlight shape is a little easier to clear with a socket extension than LX450?

Radiator install:
Glue sealing foam to front 4 edges with contact cement. Stays in place perfectly during install. No hassles.
Put a strip under the side brackets too. There's a gap.
Foam seal used is "md" brand (from Home Depot), 1/2" x 1 3/8" x 42" Premium AIR CONDITIONER WEATHERSEAL.
It's white closed cell foam.
You need 3 packages.
Mechanical fit was good. No issues.
Transmission fluid nipple can be loosened, rotated to fit, re-tightened. No leaks.

 

[Bambusiero]

BTW, @rbdave , sorry for sort of hijacking your thread, but you struck a nerve, and it all seems directly relevant to your issues, so...Hope this all helps you out too.

 

[Bambusiero]

oops double posted. not sure how to delete

 

[flintknapper]

"Yes...but what? What can it be? I still want to find it. I bugs me.
Externally - looks great. tubes, fins, solder, etc - all look normal.
And proven to flow water very well - better than OEM, and better than TYC too. So much for that.
I mean - that's all a radiator IS, right? Oh yeah, almost forgot - and the Hydronic Thermal Plasma Inducer.
Theory - Mine has a small evil gnome inside with a bicycle pump and a blow torch."


I couldn't say. But I've been paying attention to threads here for the last couple of years and it seems a few folks have had abnormally high temps with the 2517 and others not. I understand that all were probably under different circumstances and various states of total cooling system health. But we must reconcile that yours got up over 220° F. just at highway speed up a gradual incline and mine does not. In fact...I just pulled a trailer this afternoon that would weigh a bit over 2,000 lbs. about 20 miles before arriving at the one steep hill on the route.

Its fairly hot here today 96° F and I was running about 60 mph. Coolant temp (before hill) 196°. The hill is about 1/3 mile long and I have to drop down into second gear to maintain 55-60 mph without really flooring it. At the top of the hill my temp was 209° F. Once I topped the hill and started down the other side the temp dropped to 202° F. within a couple of minutes.

Now...I will NEVER argue that brass/copper radiators (of the same size) cool quite as well as aluminum ones. And I would certainly expect to see modest gains when someone switches over. But surely....27 degrees difference points to a flaw in the radiator and not wholly to material or design.

I wish I had your radiator in hand. I would put it in my vehicle and go over the same route. IF it caused my vehicle to run hotter... then its settled. A faulty radiator. If it ran the same temp...then I'm ready to concede (and switch myself) to different type. But I've just never had those kind of problems from mine.

 

[-Spike-]

"Yes...but what? What can it be? I still want to find it. I bugs me.
Externally - looks great. tubes, fins, solder, etc - all look normal.
And proven to flow water very well - better than OEM, and better than TYC too. So much for that.
I mean - that's all a radiator IS, right? Oh yeah, almost forgot - and the Hydronic Thermal Plasma Inducer.
Theory - Mine has a small evil gnome inside with a bicycle pump and a blow torch."


I couldn't say. But I've been paying attention to threads here for the last couple of years and it seems a few folks have had abnormally high temps with the 2517 and others not. I understand that all were probably under different circumstances and various states of total cooling system health. But we must reconcile that yours got up over 220° F. just at highway speed up a gradual incline and mine does not. In fact...I just pulled a trailer this afternoon that would weigh a bit over 2,000 lbs. about 20 miles before arriving at the one steep hill on the route.

Its fairly hot here today 96° F and I was running about 60 mph. Coolant temp (before hill) 196°. The hill is about 1/3 mile long and I have to drop down into second gear to maintain 55-60 mph without really flooring it. At the top of the hill my temp was 209° F. Once I topped the hill and started down the other side the temp dropped to 202° F. within a couple of minutes.

Now...I will NEVER argue that brass/copper radiators (of the same size) cool quite as well as aluminum ones. And I would certainly expect to see modest gains when someone switches over. But surely....27 degrees difference points to a flaw in the radiator and not wholly to material or design.

I wish I had your radiator in hand. I would put it in my vehicle and go over the same route. IF it caused my vehicle to run hotter... then its settled. A faulty radiator. If it ran the same temp...then I'm ready to concede (and switch myself) to different type. But I've just never had those kind of problems from mine.

Not that I expect you to change your mind, and really you shouldn't without evidence, but the climate is a bit different here. 96* isn't 109*. The cooling system needs every advantage to keep things under control in the heat and with all the mountains around us. And folks around here would consider 209* to be on the hot side. Not enough to get excited about after climbing for a couple of miles in second gear, but generally with a fully-tuned system that would be the high end. The 2517 is sufficient for the heat loads you're putting on it, not so much with what 80's see here.

 

[flintknapper]

Not that I expect you to change your mind, and really you shouldn't without evidence, but the climate is a bit different here. 96* isn't 109*. The cooling system needs every advantage to keep things under control in the heat and with all the mountains around us. And folks around here would consider 209* to be on the hot side. Not enough to get excited about after climbing for a couple of miles in second gear, but generally with a fully-tuned system that would be the high end. The 2517 is sufficient for the heat loads you're putting on it, not so much with what 80's see here.

^^^^ Yes, I agree with almost all you have said. And I have been consistent (and careful) all along to allow for differences in location, ambient temps, humidity, vehicle usage and the overall condition of the vehicle. These vary widely...and is precisely the reason we can not compare results from one to another. I've always said that.

But I still have a difficult time believing that a simple change of radiator (on the same vehicle) resulted in a 27° F. improvement in cooling and NO fault with the original radiator exists.

209° F. for my vehicle (300K miles) running regular gas, pulling a 2,000 lb. trailer, 96 degrees ambient up a steep hill is not anything like hot. My original OEM would go over 220° F. and cut the A/C out under the same conditions...but admittedly it was at the end of its useful life and actually developed a huge split in the plastic top at one point. Thankfully I was close to home.

I've had my Cruiser since it was just 3 years old...and even when the OEM radiator was relatively new (and engine had 50K miles) the temp got hot enough to move the gauge needle a bit above the half mark (out of the dead spot). I can't tell you exactly what that temp was because I did not have a ScanGauge back then (or even know if they were available). But I'd wager the spread between the two radiators was not anything like 27° F.

I'm not real up on thermodynamics but I would guess a change in temperature with respect to altitude and ambient is pretty linear. Meaning if I didn't see a huge increase/decrease in coolant temps...then others shouldn't either. Maximum temps would be different, but the spread should be the same (assuming all else is good with the engine and cooling system).

But I am willing to be proven wrong. If someone can convincingly prove that a mere change in radiator (of like construction, not a custom) would result in 25+ degrees cooler temps for my rig...then I will buy five of them tomorrow.

Logic dictates if the lesser radiator were being beaten that badly by a competitor...it simply wouldn't exist for long.

 

[Tools R Us]

...
I wish I had your radiator in hand. I would put it in my vehicle and go over the same route. IF it caused my vehicle to run hotter... then its settled. A faulty radiator. If it ran the same temp...then I'm ready to concede (and switch myself) to different type. But I've just never had those kind of problems from mine.

It's relatively new, my guess it would perform the same as yours.

We have an yearly event we call June, includes high temps and mostly single digit humidity. Over the next few weeks the humidity will go up, making people more miserable, but reduce the cooling challenge for motors. Even at the same temp, cooling challenge is reduced.

There also maybe a difference in the definition of "hill"? A third of a mile climb is not much of a test.

This is not a one time deal, have not found a copper radiator that will reliably cool, when pushed hard in our conditions. Don't care what name is on it, TRad, performance, CFS, etc, the good part, they have good value at the scrap yard, have taken a stack of them, most relatively new. Maybe as you claim, they were all defective, I guess all of them that we get are?

It sounds like it works for you, no worries, run it, be happy. But others may not have the same experience, and for sure other radiator types have significantly higher cooling capacity.

 

[flintknapper]

It's relatively new, my guess it would perform the same as yours.

Well...'guessing' is not quite what I'm looking for. Side by side comparisons on the same vehicle, under the same controlled conditions (empirical evidence) would convince me. The 'new-ness' of the radiator of course would have no bearing on a 'defect'.

We have an yearly event we call June, includes high temps and mostly single digit humidity. Over the next few weeks the humidity will go up, making people more miserable, but reduce the cooling challenge for motors. Even at the same temp, cooling challenge is reduced.

No. Not for that reason anyway (humidity). Humid air is actually less dense (molecularly) than dry air. What you are experiencing are challenges due to Heat (which expands the air) and altitude (read pressure).


There also maybe a difference in the definition of "hill"? A third of a mile climb is not much of a test.

My 'hill' is a good 40% grade (steep) encountered after 15 miles of a gradual climb ranging from 1-6% grade. In other words its all uphill (to one degree or another) until we peak the 'hill'. Other places in Texas they would have cut through it. But this is Deep East Texas (Banjo Music and all).

This is not a one time deal, have not found a copper radiator that will reliably cool, when pushed hard in our conditions. Don't care what name is on it, TRad, performance, CFS, etc, the good part, they have good value at the scrap yard, have taken a stack of them, most relatively new. Maybe as you claim, they were all defective, I guess all of them that we get are?

I have not said or implied that ALL the radiators folks have complained about are/were defective, so please don't twist my words. I don't do that to you.

It sounds like it works for you, no worries, run it, be happy. But others may not have the same experience, and for sure other radiator types have significantly higher cooling capacity.

No question..there are differences. 27 degrees different (and no fault with radiator is a hard sell though). But my advice is and has always been "Do your homework and choose wisely". One person's needs can be different than another's, on that we both agree. Thank You for your input.

^^^^^ Expand for reply.

 

[Bambusiero]

@flintknapper - Your interest in this solves a problem for me - what to do with this damn thing?
I don't feel that I can pass it on to anyone around here, and that only leaves recycling...or shipping it to Deep East Texas.
(NOT that I'm making any comparison between the 2)
If you are willing to do the work to install my CSF 2517, then I am willing to pay the shipping to you.
We can add a very clear data point to all of this - 2 direct A/B comparisons. Good stuff. We all get smarter.
This thing may actually be defective in some mysterious way - OR - maybe the only thing that's defective is the weather around here.
If it turns out to be adequate in your climate, then donate it to someone local that needs a replacement.
PM me with your shipping address if you would like to go ahead with this.

Does anyone in Mesa / Chandler / Tempe / Apache Jct have an intact radiator shipping box I can have? PM me.

 

[flintknapper]

@flintknapper - Your interest in this solves a problem for me - what to do with this damn thing?
I don't feel that I can pass it on to anyone around here, and that only leaves recycling...or shipping it to Deep East Texas.
(NOT that I'm making any comparison between the 2)
If you are willing to do the work to install my CSF 2517, then I am willing to pay the shipping to you.
We can add a very clear data point to all of this - 2 direct A/B comparisons. Good stuff. We all get smarter.
This thing may actually be defective in some mysterious way - OR - maybe the only thing that's defective is the weather around here.
If it turns out to be adequate in your climate, then donate it to someone local that needs a replacement.
PM me with your shipping address if you would like to go ahead with this.

Does anyone in Mesa / Chandler / Tempe / Apache Jct have an intact radiator shipping box I can have? PM me.

Well.....part of me is very tempted to accept your offer, but I'm fairly confident the radiator would perform unacceptably for me too. Which means a fair amount of work (remove mine, install that one, then put mine back in).

On the other hand...to up the ante, I could buy a TYC and install it and see if I get the same generous gains you have been fortunate to experience. It would be great if I did. I originally bought my 2517 for its all metal construction. It has been adequate for me under my conditions so I've been happy with it.

But I AM very curious about all of this. So part of me also wants to run a test on all three. If I were to do that...it would be late September before I can get around to it. Got too many other things going on.

IF you don't mind waiting for results (I will do it as soon as I can, but can't promise a date) I will split the shipping with you. I will PM you my physical address. I can send you a PayPal payment for 1/2 the shipping or mail you a check, whatever works for you.

 

[Fj81]

Where is the best place to order a csf? Should I just see if they have one in Rancho Cucamonga?

 

[Bambusiero]

Where is the best place to order a csf? Should I just see if they have one in Rancho Cucamonga?

You have "brass" to ask that after all of this