conversion recommendation

[Tapage]

Important point to me right here is I admire the power and capabilities of the Cummins engines .. 4BT or 6BT are just tow monsters which any 1HD-T / 12H-T etc etc .. toy engine is not .. I mean NOT ..! you can tow with a Toy TDI engine .. but that would not make it happy ..

Back on the point cummins are fantastic .. but again as Beno said maybe a matter of philosophy .. and I'm purist .. I drive Toy with Toy heart ..

Recognize other brand which sure have some great stuff they made .. I just choose Toyota with the good things and bad ones ..

 

[cody c]

Very good point.

The only con I have with Toyota diesels is that they are indeed expensive to procure, build, and fund in the long run. Parts procurement can be tough at times (though pretty much everything you need is available at a price either through TMS or TMC).

Then again, I am interested in driving a Toyota and not a Dodge and that's a philosophical choice.

Different folks, different strokes.

To me that is a grey are, there is not a lot of boundaries. Cummins is not chrysler or dodge, it is a company that makes engines, and they get parts from where ever they can, my crankshaft has "scotland" cast into it for example.

The GM cavalier was also called a toyota cavalier in japan, just not brought to the north american market (but I suspect most of us despise the mid 90's entry level sedans, my 83 BJ60 with the little four banger diesel is a hino, to my knowledge it ws a separate entity from toyota then and now (feel free to correct me if Im wrong) with parts from toyoda, another separate entity from toyota at the time, and the 3FE that was in my 80 was an overweight underpowered over complicated inline 6 based on many other previous versions which at some point was based on an old GM I6, but copied for the original landcruisers Im told.

But now Im talking history to a toyota parts guy/guru, Im sure of course this is old news for you, but in my eyes its more grey than black or white.

I suppose you can be a purist and eliminate any non toyota parts (except for timken bearings, tires, wiper blades, etc.) and most of understand that, but some of us are into building their own stuff out of the best parts from many parts bins, wether it be a duramax(isuzu), 6BT or perhaps an aluminum block LS motor, instead of digging to the very far corners of just one toyota bin. JMO

I would venture to state that the vast majority of Dodge Cummins owners make almost zero association between Dodge and Cummins other than the fact you can get them in one package.

Making a statement that a Cummins engine in a non-dodge vehicle carries any sort of Chrysler aura with it is nonsense.

Toyota engines are absolutely Toyota though, they all have a certain "driveability at the expense of efficiency" feel to them.

For many people the draw of the B series Cummins engines is how well they run despite how simple they are. A 5.9 Cummins likely has 30% less parts than a 1HD-T. If you design and build things for a living, if you have a real engineering background, you can't help but appreciate how well the B series are built and applaud Cummins approach to manufacturing the engines and their success.

The overhead cam looks like it'll have a few more parts then the 12 valves, I like the simplicity of the non electronic 12 valve's, and although they may have been designed to tow and are better suited, the 80 wasnt, but the dodge truck was. The cummins is a nice engine, but it doesnt appear it was ever engineered for a daily driven SUV, pick-ups built for towing yes. The 1HDT is a smooth engine, it revs smoother and drives quieter, Im told the injection pump and overhead cam design were specifically for reducing engine harmonics and that what gives the later H motors their "smoothness".

I really dont see any clear advantage to either, other than what engine the individual will enjoy the most.

 

[cody c]

I'm just saying that I believe in a philosophy that is inherent in belief system and a culture.

These aren't just trucks or engines to me.

They are a way of viewing the world and living in this world.

Hell the new B3.3 I have is made in Japan!!

But is it built with the philosophical foundation that the Toyota diesels are manufactured under? Maybe so, maybe not.

I'm just not interested in much that does not come out of the Toyota keiretsu.

Thats cool, a mechanical philosopher I suppose. You are right about it, toyota designed their land cruiser to tackle on and off road terrain while maintaining a bit of comfort and a touch of class.

The big three built them to look good and work till the warranty is up, and then they are designed to become costly and unreliable so as to sell a newer shiny vehicle in the interest of profit margins.

But I also have room in my heart for the cummins. In my opinion it was just designed to be a workhorse. Though after selling them to dodge for their pickups for enough years, they may be slowly becoming similar to the big three for their dependability.

 

[Christian]

Toyota diesels are unimpressive, underpowered incredibly expensive things. They are sensationalized by people in the US who don't have them- The grass is greener...

A bit biased written by someone who makes a living selling adapters...

Besides you refer to " The grass is greener", please note my motto in my sig, I have 3 12H-t's, 3-4 2H's, 1KZ-t and finally the wife's 3B
So I call: "Sour grapes"!!!

 

[Captain Caveman]

There is something you get with being a Toyota enthusiast that you don't from the domestic makes ...

An empty wallet and 4x the price on parts?

It's ok Beno, we understand you are a purist, and we accept that.

 

[ForealBoreal]

what gifu said.

It boils down to how much you want to spend. Any of the ones listed are reliable. There are lots of reading resources that can be searched.

Toyota wise,

If your going to go toyota I would say:
Get a 1HZ. Turbo if you feel the need for more power (yes its a lot more powerful and fun) Simplistic engine for sure.
Other options are a 1HD-T or 1HD-FT, 12H-T, 13B-T, a 3B or a 2H.

The 12H-T, 13B-T, 3B and 2H are not in production anymore which makes it trickier to find parts, nore is the 1HD-T or 1HD-FT but they have variants that you can still easily get parts for.

Cummins makes a nice engine they just are less refined as a toyota diesel aka they are a bit noisier but they are cheaper considerably.

4BT, 6BT or even b3.3 or whatever that last one is called.

 

[rtarh2o]

I have done a GM 6.2 loved the engine, it is a fairly easy swap and as inexpensive as you will get.
I would never consider the Cummins simply because of the noise, you can't even be within a block of those engines and hear yourself think! I can't imagine what it would be like in the passenger compartment!
The GM 6.2 is quiet in comparison but still after owning it as a daily driver it is louder than what I like.
If I were to do one again I would look seriously at the Mercedes swaps, you can get 150 hp easily, they are extremely quiet, easy to find and will last forever.

Rusty

 

[69rambler]

I have done a GM 6.2 loved the engine, it is a fairly easy swap and as inexpensive as you will get.
I would never consider the Cummins simply because of the noise, you can't even be within a block of those engines and hear yourself think! I can't imagine what it would be like in the passenger compartment!
The GM 6.2 is quiet in comparison but still after owning it as a daily driver it is louder than what I like.
If I were to do one again I would look seriously at the Mercedes swaps, you can get 150 hp easily, they are extremely quiet, easy to find and will last forever.

Rusty

I have to say I think your view of the Mercedes diesel engines is unrealistic.

 

[crushers]

2H/12HT/HZ all come with bell housings that will bolt to your tranny, simple, cheap, easy install.

labor is a killer when it comes to the diesel swap, the easier the swap the cheaper it is.

 

[orangefj45]

a lot of this stuff boils down to presonal prefferance.........

i have narrowed the conversions we do at the shop down to GM Vortecs and toyota diesels. this is not based on what i personally like ( although they're obviously my favorites ) but mostly because the customers are happiest with these and tend to keep them for a long time.
most of the 4BT converted vehicles are sold within 12-24 months. the novelty wears off and the owners get very tired of having to listen to the engine instead of their fellow passengers or stereo.
brute force is not always the way to get there. sometimes finesse is a golden alternative.
comparing these two engine manufacturers is like comparing a goldwinf to a fat boy. sure, they both get there. but what shape is the owner in when he gets to the destination?!

don't get me wrong, i'm not a purist. i go with what makse sense to me. my tow-rig is a megacab cummins. i own a few cruisers, none of them stock. amongst them is a vortec'd 80, a rock crawler vortec'd 40, a parking lot queen 40 with gm powertrain, a diesel troopie and a couple of others. my favorite "drivers" are the diesel 60/62/80 wagons and my 100-series; toyota powered.

georg @ valley hybrids

PS: yes, i manufacture the mounts to install a 1HZ/1HDT in a 60-series cruiser.

 

[cody c]

a lot of this stuff boils down to presonal prefferance.........

i have narrowed the conversions we do at the shop down to GM Vortecs and toyota diesels. this is not based on what i personally like ( although they're obviously my favorites ) but mostly because the customers are happiest with these and tend to keep them for a long time.
most of the 4BT converted vehicles are sold within 12-24 months. the novelty wears off and the owners get very tired of having to listen to the engine instead of their fellow passengers or stereo.
brute force is not always the way to get there. sometimes finesse is a golden alternative.
comparing these two engine manufacturers is like comparing a goldwinf to a fat boy. sure, they both get there. but what shape is the owner in when he gets to the destination?!

don't get me wrong, i'm not a purist. i go with what makse sense to me. my tow-rig is a megacab cummins. i own a few cruisers, none of them stock. amongst them is a vortec'd 80, a rock crawler vortec'd 40, a parking lot queen 40 with gm powertrain, a diesel troopie and a couple of others. my favorite "drivers" are the diesel 60/62/80 wagons and my 100-series; toyota powered.

georg @ valley hybrids

PS: yes, i manufacture the mounts to install a 1HZ/1HDT in a 60-series cruiser.

I thought Id mention something mentioned in another section, apparently the 4BT's (not trying to sell the OP on a cummins) didnt come with harmonic balancers.

I cant remember the thread, but someone mentioned adding a harmonic balancer off of a 6BT and getting it to run smoother. Im curious if there is any hope for the 4BT being a more refined motor for swaps.

Also, there was mention of a better type of engine mount being used for the 4BT to reduce vibrations. Im curious what the lower limit to in cab noise for a 4BT is...

 

[69rambler]

Mine is a little different perspective having had Landcruisers grow on me only after installing Cummins engines into them. I am not a fan Toyota engines across the board nor am I some kind of diesel nut.

A 4BT in a 1 ton Ford 4x4 was my first diesel vehicle. I didn't do it because I wanted a diesel, I did it on the recommendation, maybe even a DARE of a close friend who is a diesel nut and he gave me the engine, to try out, on the terms that I only paid for it if I liked it. This was back when Dovebid was chock full of 4BT breadvans. He bought 12 of them for a song, so he wasn't out much. My goal was overall fuel economy with enough power to do anything I needed the truck for including heavy towing. I didn't like the engine at first. I didn't put 1000 miles on the truck in the first few months. Then through my primary truck being in an accident the 4BT truck became my only vehicle. I was forced to drive it everywhere and for everything. I did some basic modifications for a little more power and to quiet the interior and better engine mounts and I quickly realized after tank after tank of fuel that the little engine wasn't bad at all and was delivering, in my own eyes, ridiculous fuel mileage. It was a rock solid 25 MPG for a 1 ton 4x4 on 35" tires with regular towing and hauling a ton or more of tools and machines in the bed. I took in conversions for others based on the local popularity of my truck and learned how to tune and modify the engines for the best driveability/comfort. I drove that 4BT 1 ton 4x4 for 45,000 miles in 1.5 years and had a running average of 25.2 MPG. Fast forward through 30+ conversions and developing countless conversion specific products for various modern direct inject diesel engines. Every 4BT conversion I've done has delivered similar mileage after proper setup, a couple were very overpowered and still delivered the economy. One shortbed 2wd F150 has put down high 20's consistently for years now.

I'm one of a very small number of people who make products specifically geared to the 4BT installer/owner. My target market for these parts are the guys that know their stuff, they know what the engine is, how it works and have the experience and facilities to see a project through. The DIY guys with mileage as the primary goal who are willing to fine tune some class into a tractor engine are drawn to the 4BT's and for good reason- You cannot beat them for efficiency. I support a ton of Isuzu stuff as well, but haven't seen a 4BD1T best a 4BT apples to apples yet.

The old mechanical 4BT NVH is never going to be as smooth or quiet as an indirect diesel, but the power, economy and affordability of the Cummins is impossible to beat.

There is some real engineering and loads of experience that has gone into the 4BT parts we make, but the engines, and the act of properly installing one is not for everyone.

I've developed the opinion that the 4BT really shouldn't be an engine that a customer pays a shop to install unless the customer and shop has a complete and total familiarity with the engines themselves. There are very good 4BT resources and knowledgeable, helpful, supportive people out there, but there is NOT a one size fits all 4BT.

 

[69rambler]

I thought Id mention something mentioned in another section, apparently the 4BT's (not trying to sell the OP on a cummins) didnt come with harmonic balancers.

I cant remember the thread, but someone mentioned adding a harmonic balancer off of a 6BT and getting it to run smoother. Im curious if there is any hope for the 4BT being a more refined motor for swaps.

Also, there was mention of a better type of engine mount being used for the 4BT to reduce vibrations. Im curious what the lower limit to in cab noise for a 4BT is...

4BT's actually come in more than 1000 different flavors, there are countless variations. The stripped down 105HP VE breadvan model that's been very common for conversions does not have a harmonic balancer.

4BT's, are dynamically balanced with full counterweighted cranks as all Cummins engines are.

Adding a dodge harmonic balancer to a 4BT smooths it out a little and quiets it a little not because of the harmonic dampening feature, but because you just added 15 pounds of inertia to the front of the crankshaft. The engines geartrain is driven from the front of the crank. The front of the crankshaft, with almost zero mass in the stamped steel stock pulley has a cyclic accelerated/decelerated rotational speed as it spins as a byproduct of being a 1L/cylinder diesel with very heavy reciprocating parts. Adding inertia to the front of the crankshaft smooths out the rotation of the front of the crankshaft in turn cutting down on the gear clatter and injection pump hysteresis.

Proper mounts and an engine in good condition are major considerations for any 4BT install.

 

[Duiser Offroad]

I can appreciate why someone would want a 4BT over the 6BT and vise versa.

I can also appreciate why someone would want a toyota diesel over a Cummins and vise versa.


I have my opinions, you have yours. Our common denominator is we want something other than the stock gasser.

 

[orangefj45]

i'm gonna put my flame suit on and say it out loud since a lot of people won't:

4BTs are good for one thing: 2000 RPM. anything other than that and they're a royal PITA.

fire away.......

georg

 

[orangefj45]

Here's one some of you fellow diesel enthusiasts might appreciate. Belongs to a very good friend of mine. He's pretty much a diesel guru. John Deere version of the 4BT with his home-brew twin turbos. It's counterbalanced and good for 3200RPM so it's actually got a useable powerband, unlike the "normal" 4BTs.

Yes, I like the truck. But I'd never want that engine in any of my vehicles.

 

[OGBeno]

i'm gonna put my flame suit on and say it out loud since a lot of people won't:

4BTs are good for one thing: 2000 RPM. anything other than that and they're a royal PITA.

fire away.......

georg

Classic dude.

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Classic dude.

Classic..... and correct.....

I would put a 4BT into a Power Wagon, if I found one cheap enough that didn't have the original flathead 6. Past that, it's Toyota all the way, for me and mine...

Dan

 

[orangefj45]

Classic dude.

i'm not here to sugar-coat anything or sell somebody a piece of purple sky.

the 4Bt is a fantastic engine. in a pump, compressor, generator, whatever impliment.

in a 4wd vehicle ( that actually gets used in 4wd ) we want the best of both worlds. we want fuel economy, performance and driveability. that goes for on and offroad usage.
having an engine with a 1200-1500RPM powerband makes zero sense to me. by the time you get on the gas it's time to shift. and by the time you grab another gear you're on your lid. wonderful.


georg

 

[orangefj45]

ps: did my co-pilot just warn me about that obstacle? i'll never know cause i could'nt hear sh*t!