Coil Springs under 40s, again... (2 Viewers)

[dieselcruiserhead]

To answer some of these, on a supposed kit I wouldn't deal with acquisition and sales of the radius arms personally.. Financially, I'm just stating what I'm into it which is less than $1000 for the complete setup. For me personally, that includes steering as well. The only thing missing for me personally is shocks and the coil springs. All those other costs are not built into a SAS kit as well, they don't include drivelines etc. Comparing apples to apples. Sure, there are plenty of costs when doing a SAS...

Again, placing the radius arms where the FJ60 (or 40) springs were would yield a comparable scenario. I ran FJ62 axles with outboarded springs under my 55 as you recall and with 35" MTRs and even with no steering stops I never had any interference issues. The radius arm is considerably narrower than a leaf spring as well. I think an outboarding bracket would be minimal and again would depend on application as required. I think a fairly universal kit with little changes per app here and there would be pretty easy to come up with. It's a good question on what the app would be for a cruiser and how it would sell and what it would be used for.

Also, "adjustable coil buckets." I don't think a custom coil rate would be required at all and/or the bucket could be designed around a couple different applications of coil springs...

 

[Luke111]

Here's the setup that TLC is now running on the ICON, no longer on a 40 frame but on a custom frame they now use.

Lou

 

[Mace]

The retro mini will have VERY odd handling characteristics with the arms curved the way they are.
That car was built as a show car, not as something that will go 75 down the hwy.

(but it is VERY cool)

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I don't know, those are pretty long arms. If they are OEM (from a 70 series for example) and if its caster was addressed then it means they pulled that setup from a production vehicle. So there should be some pretty minimal changes with the implementation under that car. If they followed their own OEM style setup (which as far as I can tell they did) then it'd be like saying a 70 series has a very scary setup and can't go down the highway at 75...

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Here's the setup that TLC is now running on the ICON, no longer on a 40 frame but on a custom frame they now use.

Lou

Any chance there is a front photo somewhere?

 

[Mace]

They are not very long arms.
And, they are at a VERY high angle.
Caster is independant of the design. By the time you start angling your links in that fashion, you get significant amounts of antidive. A poor design. I guarantee that Toyota did not have a factory truck with that suspension design.

IIRC, those arms were heated and bent into their current position.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Would make sense if that were the case... Regardless the plan is to use factory arms from working apps...

 

[Mace]

Would make sense if that were the case... Regardless the plan is to use factory arms from working apps...

For that one reason I would never reccomend the kit.

Factory stuff is more expensive than dealing with quality aftermarket materials, and there would be too many compromises..

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Also, "adjustable coil buckets." I don't think a custom coil rate would be required at all and/or the bucket could be designed around a couple different applications of coil springs...

There is far more to coil selection than the free-height or ability to adjust the basic height through the use of spring spacers or adjustable coil buckets. The height is secondary to the spring rate which is a function of the mechanics of the steel, the diameter, cross section and number of wraps. I'm not convinced an 80 coil would be a good fit underneath the lighter 40 series. Is there a take-off OE produced coil that would work? Sure, but its a slippery slope. Before long your at or near the cost of a true 4-linked setup that has all the pro's of the radius arm plus far more adjustable, flex and potentially strength. I've got a bent 80 radius arm here if you want to see what can and will start happening more and more to these setups as the get older and more abused.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I sorta knew this would go down this way, I would get in this case, two (hehem Mace ) advanced level modifiers who would never install this kit in the first place (because they have the capability to build a 3 or 4 link) to nit pick it away at it. Which is what I was looking for but I have to say you guys do have plenty of points but none that have really convinced me otherwise...

Mace, the reason I want to retain the OEM radius is so that it is OEM, it emphasises that this style suspension is an OEM design rather than some aftermarket radius arm. Sure aftermarket is fine and there is nothing wrong with that, but the principle is that this is pretty similar or an imitation of a stock 70 or 75 or 80 or 105 series suspension.... I also think it would potentially sell better that way....

Kurt, your points above are also why I was so interested in TJ springs. That., and the coil buckets are designed for these springs. Probably because of... Between all the height differences and the different options (2 door 4 door, 4 cyl 6 cyl, etc) there are lot of variations of that one spring available and the specs are widely published.

As mentioned, parts are ordered lets see how it pans out. $5 says just fine and probably way better than a SAS kit for overall general all around performance... Also, hater #1 , I'll be by later this afternoon to pick up those springs...

Andre

OEM TJ front tag #127ab is 125 lb/in and 17"free
OEM XJ front springs is supposedly 147 lb/in rate.
OEM ZJ with I6 is supposedly 190 lb/in rate front and rear.


RE 4.5 ZJ coil are 240 lb/in. 22" tall unloaded
RE 3.5" XJ coil 141 lbs/inch
RE 4.5" XJ coil 169 lbs/inch
RE 5.5" XJ coil 185 lbs/inch
Rustys 3" XJ standard coil 150 lbs/inch
Rustys 3" XJ Heavy Duty coil 180 lbs/inch
Rustsy 4.5" XJ coil 150 lbs/inch 22” tall unloaded
Rustsy 6.5" XJ coil 150 lbs/inch
Rustys 9" XJ coil 180 lbs/inch
OME 930 XJ coil 160 lbs/inch xj or zj I6
OME 934 ZJ coil 180 lbs/inch zj v8
Rancho 3" 235 lb/in rate.
rockkrawler 6.5" are 165 lbs/in
Sky Jacker 3" ZJ coils 218 lbs/in
Pro-Comp 4" coils 150-155 lb/in :uncompressed length=19"
Teraflex tj SR3T- Free length= 15" Spring rate= 190 rear
Teraflex tj SR4T- Free length= 15.38" Spring rate= 210 rear
Teraflex tj SF3T- Free length= 19.5" Spring rate= 170 front
Teraflex tj SF4T- Free length= 20.25" Spring rate= 200 front

 

[Mace]

Dre, what are you trying to sell tho?

Is there something special about the OEM suspensions? The arms are not as strong as aftermarket options, the replacement parts are expensive, and making them fit without some sort of drop down frame side bracket (ala ford broncos which are really unpleasant in the rocks) would be either complicated or be really quirky on the street. No matter what, the alteration will be a major modification to the truck. Why not make it as well designed as you can? Stock is great and good, but there are so many other materials that would work out just as well. You could even keep the Stock mounting design, just put the arms on the top of the axle instead of below (harder to package, but you get my drift).

OEM stuff is fine for stock stuff, but when you start exceeding the stock abilities, the downfalls really start to show.


I am a great fan of TJ springs and the aftermarket that is afforded to them.
Heck, even Chrysler had different springs for the 4 cyl, 6 cy, unlimited etc.. And all ofo those spring rates are easily identified.

I like the concept of a coil kit, I just do not see using the stock radius arms as a good thing.

 

[Luke111]

Any chance there is a front photo somewhere?

This is it

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Sounds like you and Kurt are on about the same page.. I guess I'm sort of talking about two things as once and it is confusing... My setup (I already have the arms so I'm down with it) but also a "hypothetical kit" as well... My arguement was that it would sell better if it had aspects of the OEM suspension, such as the arms. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm definitely on the same page as you guys that a good aftermarket radius arm would be just fine... Kurt showed me some 80 arms lying around and sure enough I think all three were bent... Crazy enough as I've never seen a bent one and they seem very heavy duty to me... That said I'm still very excited to build it...

Anywhoo, thanks for the input as always guys.. Mace, hopefully see you at Moab...? dre

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Dre, don't take my words for 100% face value

I really think you've got a solid game plan for your mini, and I see the benefits there more than most setups. Truthfully I'm really excited to see how it all turns out and given your attention to detail and willingness to spend time fabbing, it will work as you want it. More than that I'm just excited for you to have a built rig so we can get out on some trips together

 

[Mace]

Kurt is absolutely right, I have a tendency to play devils advocate on stuff like this. It does not mean it can't work!

I'm gonna try to make Moab with Bob. It'd be really nice seeing you guys again.

If I ever get time to put the new tranny in

 

[Mace]

BTW, FOA coilovers would not be much more expensive than coils and custom coil buckets...

Soooooo much easier to tune as well..

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I'm gonna try to make Moab with Bob. It'd be really nice seeing you guys again...

Hope you can make it! It would be great to catch up. I'll be out on the overnighter Tues-Thurs but back in town for the Vendor night on Thursday.

BTW, FOA coilovers would not be much more expensive than coils and custom coil buckets...

Soooooo much easier to tune as well..

x2

 

[theferg]

I just finished reading over that 1KZ radius arm build over on Pirate. He doesn't really say anything about how it performs, but from the pics, I think it turned out near perfect for a daily-driver/weekend-warrior type rig.

Dre, I think I feel ya on this whole thing and I've been thinking it over quite a bit (specifically in relation to my own truck--a 2002 4Runner). When I got rid of the 80 and went to the 4Runner, one of the things that has bugged me was the IFS, however, when I factor in my style of wheeling I prefer to do, I feel the IFS will easily be able to handle it, plus I was doing around an hour of freeway driving to the office at the time and the IFS just kills it on the freeway. But every time I look under there and see all that crap under the front, another teeny lil part of me dies. LOL

I've also been looking at doing a front diff swap and man, what PITA that looks like it'll be!

So naturally, I want my solid front axle back... I've looked around the 4Runner forums and it seems like the only thing thats been done on the 3rd gens is the Sonoran Steel SAS which uses leafs. That just seems crazy to me. I've got this nice coil rear suspension here (ok, the rear links look a bit whimpy and I'd like to do something about them as well ) so why in the hell go leafs up front?--I cant even imagine how strange the feel of that ride would be. And it seems I'm not alone as it appears that all the guys that have done the SS leaf SAS have gone to leafs in the rear as well. Anyway, I'm not trying to bag on the SS kit or leafs, but it just doesnt seem to jive for me.

That being said, I agree pretty much with everything thats been said here. Seems to me a nice 3 or 4 link setup would be the cats meow over a radius arm setup, but seems that would be a lot more thought and involvement and design figuring it all out since in this case, the arms are already done. They've been engineered and produced and work (though, yes, for a different vehicle) and perhaps in this case they might actually do the trick. I'm excited to see how this turns out and will be thinking hard about doing it for mine (though since I'm drivers drop diff in the front, no toyota axle for me )

-Ferg-

 

[theferg]

Dre, good to see you at moab. The trailer looked like it was coming along pretty good.

Anyway, any updates on this radius arm idea for your mini truck? I'm super interested in how it ends up panning out for ya.

PS I'd love to roll up and help you out when/if you start jamming out on this so let me know. I'm jonesin for some wrenchin time.

-Ferg-

 

[JJS]

It seems that most people I've seen here who have used 80 axles under a 40 did so by torching off the buckets and radius arm mounts and running leaves. That has always struck me as counterproductive.