Builds Chicago builds a 40

[chicago]

SOOOO...since I had time to screw with it a bit, I wanted to see what chopping down the rear hanger would do. I cut it so the bushing tube would be flush with the bottom of the frame rail.
This brought the rear of the spring pack up about an inch. I threw the knuckles back on (loosely...they still need to be shimmed and centered) and threw the FJ80 rod end on. I then grabbed a piece of 1 in PVC pipe which, (oddly enough is the SAME O.D. (1 1/2) as the tie rod material. I managed to get the steering angle down to 5* as opposed the 6-7* it was at previously. Most importantly...I now have a 1/2 in of clearance above the spring packs. When I measured rusty TLC's rig, that is what he has on his. Now his is settled far more than mine (obviously) which Ill also need to take into consideration.
Now, arguably, the rough dimensions for castor on an SOA rig are 4-6 deg. SOME argue that is still too much per factory settings of caster, but...I ran 5 deg on my 62 when I did the SOA.
The point is...I could run it this way. This had also dropped the pinon angle down a deg. as well.

Here are the pics.

 

[chicago]

here are a few more.

 

[chicago]

I still would have to adjust the shackle angle a bit more. Its a bit more vertical than I wanted.

Ive got a few days to stew on it and decide if its REALLY worth the effort to scrap the whole thing and run through the frame If I dont need to.

If anyone sees something Im missing...lemme know.

 

[chicago]

Once you plasma that hole, moving it is going to be a lot of work.

I put mine all together with that end of the spring resting on the frame. It's not very flexy, but it gave me an idea of how the springs would handle the load. In your case, you know exactly how the springs will behave. Measure eye-to-eye as it is, figure out what shackle angle you want, and burn it in.

My theory about the shackle angle is that you want the shackle end to touch the frame at the same time the spring is exactly flat so the spring can then go inverted and pull the shackle back down. This is easy to measure by laying the tape along the curve of the spring no matter how flexed it is. Of course they never get really flat when they're flexed like that, but pretty close.

If the shackle is long enough to reach from the static location to the flattened location, you're golden. If not you're going to have to decide if you want to bottom out on the frame when you're tucked, or limit travel at full droop. I have considered notching the frame for more clearance. Low riders do it all the time and much more extremely than I'm thinking. I have no firm plans to do this, however.

Mine is too tall to start. I've got a little clearance issue with the tie rod that I hope will be solved by different steering arms and slightly small tie rods (fj80 vs 1 ton), but removing a leaf will help too. I'm also going to ruff stuff perches which are probably lower than how I have it set up right now. Once the leaf is out, I'm going to remeasure and follow my plan as above. I'm planning 4" uptravel using the stock bump stops and Bilstein 5125 12" shocks. :crossesfingers:

If you wait until after Sunday you can see how bad I f'd mine up.

Ed,
what is your clearance with the spring in relation to the tie rod?
So, theoretically, all I would need to do is transfer the spring dimension (eye to eye) with the desired shackle angle?
I finally GOT what Rusty was talking about with the 2x4....The approx. distance between the bushing tube and the spring eye (top) is 1.5 in. So he was saying to use THAT ( a 2x4 laying flat, which is about 1.5 in) as your space between the spring and the frame rail. Could also do it with a 2x4 piece of square tube and tack it in place to be safer and more accurate.
Just another way to "skin the cat".
Thanks for the description.

 

[boots4]

Are you checking tierod-to-leaf pack clearance by turning the knuckles hard right/left? It's when you are turned hard right/left that the tierod will get closer to the leak packs. Per the alignment computer I'm running 6.1 degrees for caster.

I just saw your request for the rise on the steering arm. I'll get some measuring for you in the next couple of days. Although by the looks of it your's appear to have more rise than mine.

 

[Fast Eddy]

Ed,
what is your clearance with the spring in relation to the tie rod?

They touch at full lock with the weight on the spring; about 1/2" when straight. When the springs are drooped, I can't turn to the lock due to interference.

So, theoretically, all I would need to do is transfer the spring dimension (eye to eye) with the desired shackle angle?

Sounds kinda simplistic. Maybe I don't get what you mean.

Your springs are near flat. Measure eye-to-eye. Then measure along the top leaf. It will be a bit longer. I don't see any reason the measurement from your front hanger to the back end of the shackle, just as it contacts the frame, or wherever it bottoms out in your case, would be different. With your spring as near flat as it is, you should have a >45 shackle angle, IMO. That will help your steering angle more too.

I'll get some measuring for you in the next couple of days. Although by the looks of it your's appear to have more rise than mine.

Mine too, I think.

 

[chicago]

Are you checking tierod-to-leaf pack clearance by turning the knuckles hard right/left? It's when you are turned hard right/left that the tierod will get closer to the leak packs. Per the alignment computer I'm running 6.1 degrees for caster.

I just saw your request for the rise on the steering arm. I'll get some measuring for you in the next couple of days. Although by the looks of it your's appear to have more rise than mine.

Thanks boots.
No I did not check the turn yet. Didnt even think of it actually.
I was so glad to have cleared the pack by just cutting the hangers off a bit.
There seems to be some debate that more than 3 deg of caster is bad over on the 40 section. Not BAD, but...not necessary.
Even if I do go through the frame with this, Ill still clock it up a bit.
You dont have any problems with your steering set up, do you?
I read that you have a vibe, but not necessarily r/t the caster?

Thanks for checking in.

K

 

[locrwln1]

I'm liking those castor numbers and clearance much better.

As suggested, turn it from lock to lock and confirm you have the clearance, if so, I'm not sure I would go through the frame (I know I can't believe I said that considering I have been suggesting it from the beginning), but everything is looking good where its at now.

Jack

 

[Fast Eddy]

Thanks boots.
No I did not check the turn yet. Didnt even think of it actually.

When it's drooping it will be closer too. I'd like to see what happens to your shackle angle with droop. Once you get to about 45 degrees forward shackle angle, you'll run out of droop and that will be the limit of your down-travel. How long are those shackles over stock?

BTW, I think those plastic tie rods will be good enough for your rig.

 

[chicago]

They touch at full lock with the weight on the spring; about 1/2" when straight. When the springs are drooped, I can't turn to the lock due to interference.



Sounds kinda simplistic. Maybe I don't get what you mean.

Your springs are near flat. Measure eye-to-eye. Then measure along the top leaf. It will be a bit longer. I don't see any reason the measurement from your front hanger to the back end of the shackle, just as it contacts the frame, or wherever it bottoms out in your case, would be different. With your spring as near flat as it is, you should have a >45 shackle angle, IMO. That will help your steering angle more too.



Mine too, I think.

Never mind. It is as you had stated.
Not gonna be doing the 45* as I do really want to allow room for settle and also some additional weight that I have yet to get on this thing. Youre right though, it will help the steering angle if it were kicked back a bit more.
So if yours hits with 1/2 in clearance when straight, sound then like I have more to do to be "safe". Ill check it more this weekend. If Im running into the same issue that youre having then ill be using the Proffitts gear after all.

 

[chicago]

I'm liking those castor numbers and clearance much better.

As suggested, turn it from lock to lock and confirm you have the clearance, if so, I'm not sure I would go through the frame (I know I can't believe I said that considering I have been suggesting it from the beginning), but everything is looking good where its at now.

Jack

Thanks for posting up Jack.
Ill check it this weekend.

 

[boots4]

You dont have any problems with your steering set up, do you?
I read that you have a vibe, but not necessarily r/t the caster?

Thanks for checking in.

K

As far as steering geometry I don't think there are problems with that just some component issues. I think that for a wagon at least 4-6 degrees is a good number. My steering doesn't have a snap back to center feel like newer cars but for the most part steers well and tracks well down the road. When Brokenparts drove Dora he commented on liking the steering feel. It had some feedback and wasn't over-assisted (like tractor steering). I've got some minor tire and bearing issues right now that have contributed to my darty feeling for component issues. If I had less caster I bet it'd be worse. As for the vibs, they are not caster related. I've got a hunch what it may be and it's not what I would have thought but more on that later.

 

[chicago]

As far as steering geometry I don't think there are problems with that just some component issues. I think that for a wagon at least 4-6 degrees is a good number. My steering doesn't have a snap back to center feel like newer cars but for the most part steers well and tracks well down the road. When Brokenparts drove Dora he commented on liking the steering feel. It had some feedback and wasn't over-assisted (like tractor steering). I've got some minor tire and bearing issues right now that have contributed to my darty feeling for component issues. If I had less caster I bet it'd be worse. As for the vibs, they are not caster related. I've got a hunch what it may be and it's not what I would have thought but more on that later.

Ill look forward to seeing what that is on your rig.
I cant imagine what the difference would be between the 40 and 60 as far as the caster is concerned except the WB.
Im gonna mess with mine more this weekend, but...I really on the fence about it. May try flipping the spring and the front hangers and see if I cant get that any better that way, but...I did a pre lim with the springs flipped and it made the clearance worse cuz the short end rose that much more rapidly.
I really dont see a problem with it except that the mil wrap is allegedly at the wrong side? Donno how that works, but that is what Ive been told anyway.

Thanks for posting up.

K

 

[chicago]

SOOOOO. got a bug and cut everything off.
Flipped the springs so the short end is in the front, flipped the front hanger around, got the perches free again and mounted a 2x4 under the rear of the spring as if I were gonna do the through the frame shackle hanger and the dimensions got WAAAAY worse. Dropped from a 1/2 in to a 1/4- 1/8 in clearance at a 5 Deg. caster setting.
I figured this would happen as the short end of the springs rises quicker and the frame also drops at the rear of the spring pack.
So with the set up as it is currently, going through the frame will NOT help the situation unless I pop for the 4x4 labs gear.
However....I didnt really see anything wrong with the set up that I had EXCEPT that there was NO ROOM for adjustment once everything was set. Then as the springs settle the tie rod clearance WILL get worst. SO what I AM going to do is flip everything back the way it was and Ill probably end up doing the proffitts shackle once it get here. The CULPRIT is that rear spring pack dimension that is killing the caster and tie rod clearance.
That... or run the shackle up front the way they were designed to.
This is not out of the question at this point either. Im considering this option too pretty hard.

 

[Fast Eddy]

The CULPRIT is that rear spring pack dimension that is killing the caster and tie rod clearance.
That... or run the shackle up front the way they were designed to.
This is not out of the question at this point either. Im considering this option too pretty hard.

I'm right there with you. I spent some time trying to decide if shackles would fit under my Saginaw box. Nope. I understand, now, why they have that tall SOA bracket at the front. As of now I have a 1" block (solid ) spacing the front fixed hanger down for 1 degree more slack in that angle and 1/2" or more extra steering clearance. I'll know more once I try to f with the shackle again tomorrow and swap to the other steering arms. It's close to working. I may settle for 5-6 degrees of caster. It will depend on the steering when it's at the lock and drooped out.

According to how I calculate the shackle end only moves about 3/4" fore and aft for about 4" of spring compression.

I actually have a tube in hand to do a frame cutout. Not committed though. I can lower the rear of the front spring by 3/4" if I do it.

We flipped my rear axle shackle hanger around ant went from something like a 75 degree shackle angle to about 18 degrees. We swapped ends back to original on the spring at the same time. Should have done one thing at a time. Luckily we only tacked the hangers. 2nd time will be the charm there. My rear shackles are ridiculously long, like 2.5" over stock. They need to be at a steep angle.

The ruff stuff perches are massive. They make me want to order 37s instead of 35s.

We cut down my axle today. It turned out perfect. I would have cut it down a bit less if I had to do it over. The front is about 58.5", the rear is about 57.5". We also moved the oil fill plug up about 1-1/4" for input bearing oiling with the 12 degree pinion angle. The tig welding on the axle is amazing, even the fill plug. If I wasn't so tired, I'd start a thread.

The stock fj62 springs have a pin that is too long to stick into a perch when SOA. We ran out of time and didn't have a tap handy, so we cut off the nut and the excess threads and welded it up. If I want to fix it right later it won't be hard to deal with. It wouldn't have been fun to take it apart.

Tomorrow I sell my old axles at 9, then pull a leaf or two out of my rusty front pack. Not looking forward to that. I have to mock up the front, space out where the front shackles go and mark those holes. Once they're cut (plasma), it's not going to be easy to move them. My welder is coming in the afternoon to finish up.

I don't see any reason I won't be ready to order up some driveshafts by Monday. S&T here I come.

 

[chicago]

I'm right there with you. I spent some time trying to decide if shackles would fit under my Saginaw box. Nope. I understand, now, why they have that tall SOA bracket at the front. As of now I have a 1" block (solid ) spacing the front fixed hanger down for 1 degree more slack in that angle and 1/2" or more extra steering clearance. I'll know more once I try to f with the shackle again tomorrow and swap to the other steering arms. It's close to working. I may settle for 5-6 degrees of caster. It will depend on the steering when it's at the lock and drooped out.

According to how I calculate the shackle end only moves about 3/4" fore and aft for about 4" of spring compression.

I actually have a tube in hand to do a frame cutout. Not committed though. I can lower the rear of the front spring by 3/4" if I do it.

We flipped my rear axle shackle hanger around ant went from something like a 75 degree shackle angle to about 18 degrees. We swapped ends back to original on the spring at the same time. Should have done one thing at a time. Luckily we only tacked the hangers. 2nd time will be the charm there. My rear shackles are ridiculously long, like 2.5" over stock. They need to be at a steep angle.

The ruff stuff perches are massive. They make me want to order 37s instead of 35s.

We cut down my axle today. It turned out perfect. I would have cut it down a bit less if I had to do it over. The front is about 58.5", the rear is about 57.5". We also moved the oil fill plug up about 1-1/4" for input bearing oiling with the 12 degree pinion angle. The tig welding on the axle is amazing, even the fill plug. If I wasn't so tired, I'd start a thread.

The stock fj62 springs have a pin that is too long to stick into a perch when SOA. We ran out of time and didn't have a tap handy, so we cut off the nut and the excess threads and welded it up. If I want to fix it right later it won't be hard to deal with. It wouldn't have been fun to take it apart.

Tomorrow I sell my old axles at 9, then pull a leaf or two out of my rusty front pack. Not looking forward to that. I have to mock up the front, space out where the front shackles go and mark those holes. Once they're cut (plasma), it's not going to be easy to move them. My welder is coming in the afternoon to finish up.

I don't see any reason I won't be ready to order up some driveshafts by Monday. S&T here I come.

I actually think I got mine figured out....
I completely scrapped the use of a shackle hanger altogether and am now just gonna run the proffitts shackle. I came to this realization this AM when I walked out there and was gonna mock everything up again with the hangers. Its questionable that way to begin with, so I just said...**** IT!
So I got everything jacked up with using a 2x4 piece of steel on both sides, set the pinion to 10 deg, set the caster at 4 deg and I now have about 5/8- 3/4 in clearance. That will also improve once I go through the frame as well. With this clearance, I have about 3/16 in of space between the springs and tie rod, and there are no steer stops on. I also have to bear in mind that the PVC is hanging loose DOWN about 1/8 in, and the knuckles are also a bit low as they are not centered yet either.
I drew some index marks for 20* and 25* shackle angles on the frame, so THEORETICALLY, when I get the shackles tomorrow i should be able to just plug away.

So, you ended up needing a block under the front hanger?
I donnon how people do this without issues. It seems that everyone has done a SR and Ive never heard of these kinds of issues that were having with it?

 

[chicago]

Here are some pics of the springs mocked up and the frame indexed for the through the frame shackle...
Now I have this right, RIGHT?
The weight of the rig is on the springs, and all I SHOULD NEED TO DO when I get the shackles is basically mark along the index lines that I drew on the frame, right? That should give me the desired shackle angle I need/ want?
Am I missing anything?

Thanks,

K

 

[chicago]

Since I couldnt do anything else...
I decided to go to PnP...Found a GM tilt column out of an 86 camaro.

Gotta do some research to find out how to do this correctly in a 40....Cut all the wires from the harness to keep BOTH ends of the plugs in tact.
Did this WITHOUT sockets as well cuz my DUMB ASS forgot em on my work bench!
Needed to borrow a 10mm socket from some guy there for the fire wall bolts.

 

[jefishing]

I am so glad you post all of this up. I will be going through the same thing very soon. I hope the proffits shackles work out. How far up into the frame do you have to drill the hole for the shackle. Could you throw a tape on the front hanger and let me know what the distance is from the top to the bottom and how far it sticks out past the frame horn. I have the same style of hanger but it came from proffits and i was wanting to reuse it if I can cut it off without destorying it.

 

[waiting for time]

Here are some pics of the springs mocked up and the frame indexed for the through the frame shackle...
Now I have this right, RIGHT?
The weight of the rig is on the springs, and all I SHOULD NEED TO DO when I get the shackles is basically mark along the index lines that I drew on the frame, right? That should give me the desired shackle angle I need/ want?
Am I missing anything?

Thanks,

K

Hi Keith,

Do you mean drill the hole on the line you drew on the frame?
I think you mean go up in a vertical line from the point it is on now. You want to keep the distance between the front of the spring and the top of the shackle the same to get the same shackle angle.
If you take a corner iron and drill a hole in it which you bolt on the front side off the spring and drill a hole where your upper shackle hole is now you will have a perfect template to make the hole in the frame. You can use it on both sides of the frame.

Just don't forget to take the weight of the parts not on there in the equasion.
Nice work, looking good.