Cam And Lifter Woes (2 Viewers)

[Steamer]

I don't recommend any racing oil because racing oils are for 1 weekend of use,

Yes. Valvoline has a VR1 Racing oil that is labeled “NSL” (not street legal) and for short term use. The VR1 Racing oil I’ve been using is not that one. From their info on it “HERE” it seemed like a decent choice. Whadaya think?

 

[FJ40Jim]

It's a racing oil. I use it in my racecar, and change it very frequently. My big stoopid Cruiser engine is lotsa idle time, lotsa fuel blowby, lotsa carbon. The kind of trash that diesel oil is formulated to deal with.

 

[middlecalf]

Can somebody explain the how and why of the formentioned lifter rotation given smooth contact surfaces and lubrication? I know there are slots and an internal void in the lifters, is there some sort of hydraulic force that makes them rotate, if they actually do?

 

[Skreddy]

It's a racing oil. I use it in my racecar, and change it very frequently. My big stoopid Cruiser engine is lotsa idle time, lotsa fuel blowby, lotsa carbon. The kind of trash that diesel oil is formulated to deal with.

There’s 2 versions of the VR1. One is a true 1 weekend race oil. The other is a street version that says RACING on the bottle so guys with muscle cars can brag they need race oil. (Me included). But it’s a really good oil for pushrod engines. I use the non-race, VR1 oil in all of my Harleys, cruiser, Chevelle.
I am a fan of (the right) diesel oil in a cruiser. I just use the VR1 because then it’s the same oil for everything.


As for break in lubes: I really like the Driven engine assembly lube. I’ve used it on a dozen or so engines. I rub it all over the bearings, can, lifters, rockers, timing gears/chain. It washes out just fine with heat in the first oil change. I am not patient enough to do a proper cam break in and I’ve got tons of miles on engines I literally beat the s%%t out of. No matter what assembly lube you use, you’re going to wipe most of it off the cam by setting the valves with all the engine rotation anyway so something that leaves a film and getting the engine started and oil flowing as quickly as possible are key. I am no engine builder, but I play one at times.

 

[Grayscale]

I'm not seeing lubrication problems here. That engine oil pressure thread was probably on a Cummins with hydraulic lifters, don't get the study twisted. I'm sure that the stream of oil flowing down the pushrods is plenty to keep things from wearing away. Maybe the valve springs are too much for the rebuild parts?

Imagine the opposite scenario, the camshaft and lifters are made out of more durable material for wear, but they are cracking or destroying pushrods. How many miles on the parts in question?

 

[PabloCruise]

Can somebody explain the how and why of the formentioned lifter rotation given smooth contact surfaces and lubrication? I know there are slots and an internal void in the lifters, is there some sort of hydraulic force that makes them rotate, if they actually do?

This is a great question!
See Jim C answer below.

I am no expert, but I can add what I know. Hopefully others w/ more knowledge can correct, or add, as needed.

My understanding is that each cam lobe is supposed to have a taper, if ground properly. The top of each lobe is not straight level, there is a high side and a low side. Combine this with a convex surface of the lifter "face" (the part that contacts the cam lobe and ideally we get the rotating lifter.

That is about all I have to say about that...

 

[Steamer]

This is a great question! I am no expert, but I can add what I know. Hopefully others w/ more knowledge can correct, or add, as needed.

My understanding is that each cam lobe is supposed to have a taper, if ground properly. The top of each lobe is not straight level, there is a high side and a low side. Combine this with a convex surface of the lifter "face" (the part that contacts the cam lobe and ideally we get the rotating lifter.

That is about all I have to say about that...

That's how I understand it. I would add that I believe the lifter bores are also a tad offset from center which aids with rotation.
Some info I've found "HERE"

 

[FJ40Jim]

There is no crown on F series lifters & no taper on the cam lobe. Rotation is induced by the lobe centerline offset from lifter centerline. Tapered cam lobe & crowned lifter is a post-war technology.

 

[Grayscale]

Anyone call for an actual tow? Nothing has failed here.

 

[3_puppies]

does the lifter rotation help with rotation of the push rods?
not sure you can see the lifters rotate but easy to see the push rods rotate.

 

[FJ40Jim]

The pushrods rotate because they are sitting on the rotating lifter.

 

[Steamer]

in the pics of the cam lobes, they all appear to be wearing on 1 side of the lobe. they are not shiny/worn all the way across the lobe?
could be when the lifters stopped rotating that caused this?
the wear on the lifters seems dead center versus the wear on the lobes

You’re right Paul. That does seem odd. I was guessing the cam lobe wear being evident to one side was due to the lifters being offset so the lifters spin. But then that still wouldn’t explain the wear on the lifter being centered. Having a good look at the lifters again, you could say the wear is a "slightly" off center but tough to say for sure. I wish I knew just how much the lifter bores are offset from the cam lobes. The pitting on the lobes is strange also.

is the edge of the lobes where the wear is very rough? seems jagged, maybe flaking?

The jagged edge seems to be consistent with the surface of the casting and was the result of the lobe being machined on one plane and not dressed up on the side of the lobes. But I’m guessing that.

did you cut the old oil filter to see what is in the paper?

I wish I had that filter now. When it was pulled and discarded, I never thought I’d be pulling the cam. I haven’t drained the oil yet, so I’ll check that with a magnet. However, the oil and filter have been changed numerous times since the cam was installed. I don’t know when the damage occurred. Over time or just recent.

not good either way, looks like some engine work ahead.

Yup! Since the rebuilt head is already back on, I figure I'll put in a new cam & lifters and see what happens.

 

[pb4ugo]

Lifters and cams are hardened, the cam rotates on babit bearings in the blk. It appears to me at some point the lifters stop spinning. My guess it happened fairly recently. You're lucky you found it now. Maybe it didnt hurt the bearings. It doenst take long to wipe out a cam lobe. Looking at the marks on the lifter you can tell how they were in contact of the cam. One side of the marks on the lifter are relatively straight, i think that would be from the lobes edge. The the other edge/side of the marks on the lifter have a sort of indent in the middle of the mark, you can compare that to the witness marks on the cam, which is not a straight line. Below are pics of a low mileage used sbc cam I'm installing into a 350. Notice the circular marks in the lifter and how the wear marks swirl on the cam causing the lifter to spin. Most every engine tear down I've done these types of marks are fairly consistent regardless of engine make. I think your issue is from the oil & additive your using, considering all your wear on all the lifters is about the same. Oil seems to be the common denominator. From your post, I guess the cam has been installed since 09? You might want to pull the pan and a main cap bearing and see what the bearings look like. You've flushed this metal thru the engine.

 

[RockDoc]

If my understanding of the 80 series thread on the Wix / NAPA filters is correct, I the anti-drainback valve has been installed incorrectly or is missing a piece that retains in some cases. This lets the silicone(?) flap get free and pieces of it end up blocking flow.

If you're using a WIX oil filter read this

First off I am sure that WIX makes a great filter. So sure I put them on both my Cruisers. With that being said a faulty 51515 roached my 1FZ. A couple weeks ago before I left to go to work, I started the 80 before I went to work to let it warm up a little since it was around 20 degrees outside...

forum.ih8mud.com

I think the picture starts getting clearer around page 10..??

Since you have the side cover off, I would suggest 'priming' your oil pump and verifying that oil is getting to your cam bearing to feed the top end.

I believe Delta's website states they grind the cam lobes with a slight angle to promote rotation. That would explain the uneven wear on the lobes. Hopefully their angle doesn't fight with / counter Toyota's offset to effectively dampen rotation... (the fact you have centered wear on the lifters and offset wear on the cam make me wonder.. )

 

[pb4ugo]

I just pulled the cam and lifters out of the engine that's getting the good used cam. The engine had been sitting for about 15+ yrs. It ran great when it was parked and didn't make any noises. I changed the oil and primed the oil pump then got it running this spring. It had a very slight ruff idle and a periodic lifter tick at idle. Below is the lifter i found. The engine had about 1500 miles put on it since spring. You can see the mark and indent from hitting the cam. You can't feel the mark or indent with a fingernail. Fyi. The rest of the lifters wear were perfect.

 

[OSS]

Your engine wouldn’t be the first that got ruined by a WIX 51515. - for the very reason you stated - excessive run time without oil at start up.
That filter is not blessed by WIX to be run upside-down. It’s supposed to be installed (in a tractor) with the threads up.

Yeah- other guys will say that they’ve had no problems with that filter and have been using it for decades. Well lucky them - but it should never be used upside down- WIX even declares so.

 

[Grayscale]

Which filters are correct on a 2F?

When I was reading up on it, it was almost like the pressure release valve received a new name and function as an antidrainback valve. I only think that oil might be below par on the upper motor because of cold viscosity is your major dry-start enemy.

 

[Steamer]

When I was reading up on it, it was almost like the pressure release valve received a new name and function as an antidrainback valve.

Those are two different and separate components of the oil filter. “THIS” video displays them.

 

[Grayscale]

It looks the same to me. A spring that is attached to the pressure side of the oil, and a silicone like flap to make the actual seal - a few parts for one function.

 

[middlecalf]

I recommend good 5W40 diesel oil, plus an additive.

15w40?