Cleaning the block surface with the head off of the F.5, I figured I probably got some debris down the push rod holes so I pulled the side cover off for some cleaning. With the cover off, it got a paint job and so then off came the crank pulley and timing cover for a fresh clean & paint. Then, waiting for paint to harden up, I look at how far it’s torn down and realize I’m only two thrust plate bolts away from pulling the cam & lifters for a look see. So, I did, and the view was very disappointing. These four are typical of the rest.
Cam And Lifter Woes
- Thread starter Steamer
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My first thought after seeing the excessive wear was that Delta did a poor job of heat treating after the regrind. But now after researching here on Mud, I’m thinking maybe my regular use of the Wix 51515XP XP tallboy could have caused this. I’ve always had good oil pressure, but I did notice after sitting a few days or sometimes weeks, up to a 3 second delay for the mechanical pressure gauge to lift off the peg and then climb up to 50-60 psi. Restarting later the same day almost no delay and next day maybe a 1 second delay. I didn’t like the delay, but I was just complacent with it and now kicking myself for not getting more alarmed.
In 2009 I sent my stock original cam, to Delta Cams for a 250-S regrind along with the stock lifters for resurfacing. I put it all together with assembly lube, primed the oil pump and had oil flowing up top and did the cam breaking procedure at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes. Push rods were rotating with oil spiraling down them. All looked great. For the break-in, I ran Mobil 1 10-40 with a bottle of Comp Cams Engine Break-in Additive. And with every oil change a bottle of the break in additive was added. Years later I switched to Valvoline VR racing 20-50 along with the Lucas Break-in Additive for every oil change.
In 2009 I sent my stock original cam, to Delta Cams for a 250-S regrind along with the stock lifters for resurfacing. I put it all together with assembly lube, primed the oil pump and had oil flowing up top and did the cam breaking procedure at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes. Push rods were rotating with oil spiraling down them. All looked great. For the break-in, I ran Mobil 1 10-40 with a bottle of Comp Cams Engine Break-in Additive. And with every oil change a bottle of the break in additive was added. Years later I switched to Valvoline VR racing 20-50 along with the Lucas Break-in Additive for every oil change.
The first thing I though of when you mentioned the delay in building pressure was no anti-drain back valve in the filter. That isn't the case as the manufacture states it does have an anti-drain back valve so don't think the filter was the problem.
My second guess is that the lifters were probably the cause. Here is my reasoning: When somethings are described they may mention that something is hardened. Most think that the whole item is hardened when in reality it is only the surface. If the lifters were dished more than likely they had worn through the hardened surface. When ground flat you had no hardened surface left. The cam probably had a harder surface and normal running wore away the bottom of the lifter causing what you are seeing.
Sounds like time for a new cam and set of lifters.
My second guess is that the lifters were probably the cause. Here is my reasoning: When somethings are described they may mention that something is hardened. Most think that the whole item is hardened when in reality it is only the surface. If the lifters were dished more than likely they had worn through the hardened surface. When ground flat you had no hardened surface left. The cam probably had a harder surface and normal running wore away the bottom of the lifter causing what you are seeing.
Sounds like time for a new cam and set of lifters.
Do the Toyota lifters have Babbitt alloy coating like the bearings? If so, is that what we’re seeing worn away on the lifter surfaces?
Maybe stated in another thread but what was the purpose for pulling the head, etc. on your motor?
Maybe stated in another thread but what was the purpose for pulling the head, etc. on your motor?
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- #5
I just cut open a new Wix filter and the anti-drain back valve seams decent but who knows how well they work. Difficult to test and then there's a possibility to get on that's defective. Too bad I tossed the old one.
I was thinking the cam was heat treated after the regrind but I don't really know. Or the lifters for that matter.
You're right. New cam & lifters.
Skreddy
SILVER Star
The lifters look like they stopped rotating at some point. Don’t have any guess on what would’ve caused them to stop rotating but once they stop….
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- #7
I can't detect a coating visually. It just seems scored as if run dry.
Head was pulled & rebuilt because I had decent compression (last time I checked) but had low and erratic vacuum at rpm lower than 900. Head wasn't all that bad but it got rebuilt anyways.
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- #8
The pushrods all rotated when the Delta cam was installed in 2009. They were still rotating when checked a few times years later when checking the valve adjustment which required little to no adjustment.
in the pics of the cam lobes, they all appear to be wearing on 1 side of the lobe. they are not shiny/worn all the way across the lobe?
could be when the lifters stopped rotating that caused this?
the wear on the lifters seems dead center versus the wear on the lobes.
is the edge of the lobes where the wear is very rough? seems jagged, maybe flaking?
not good either way, looks like some engine work ahead. seems metal has been run thru it now.
did you cut the old oil filter to see what is in the paper?
could be when the lifters stopped rotating that caused this?
the wear on the lifters seems dead center versus the wear on the lobes.
is the edge of the lobes where the wear is very rough? seems jagged, maybe flaking?
not good either way, looks like some engine work ahead. seems metal has been run thru it now.
did you cut the old oil filter to see what is in the paper?
Did you have any noise that would lead you to believe there was an issue with cam and lifers?
For purposes of clarity - we are looking at a Delta regrind, yes?
What lifters?
What lifters?
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Delta 250s regrind on the original stock cam. Delta also resurfaced the original stock lifters.
Do they claim to heat treat the lifters after resurface?
Do these additives have zinc?
I know some folks like to run Rotella 15-40 for the extra zinc.
I, like you, have been running the Wix (NAPA Gold) 1515 "Big Can" filter. Now I wonder about the switch by Toyota to a smaller filter for the 2F. Less surface area, but quicker to build pressure...
the rotella was known for the extra zn content, but it no longer, nor for some years now has the elevated content.
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I don't know and I didn't think to ask at the time.
Yes! "Comp Cams" and the "Lucas"
Like Brian said, I think that has changed. I chose the Valvoline VR1 Racing (dino) because of the info "HERE". # 3 on the list. and chose 20-50 for the Miami climate.
My thoughts exactly. I just bought 4 of "THESE" . Where I used to think having the extra capacity was a good thing, I'm now thinking if the filter should drain down, a smaller capacity would fill quicker. Also, these little filters is what Toyota recommends for the Fs & 2Fs.
The lifter faces are just splash lubricated. Having oil pressure or not won't have any effect on them.
The lack of surface hardening on the lifter combined with a lack of sufficient Zn or Mo is probably to blame here.
The lack of surface hardening on the lifter combined with a lack of sufficient Zn or Mo is probably to blame here.
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- #18
Wow! Thank you for that Jim. I thought I was keeping the zinc (ZDDP) levels up with my additives. What do you recommend for keeping them up? I did see your method with the dab of moly grease on the face of newly installed lifters and will do that when a new cam and lifters go in.
Can you place a micrometer or calipers on the camshaft and see how much lobe you have lost? The manual specifies cam lobe height. Do you know the specs when it was installed?
I recommend good 5W40 diesel oil, plus an additive. Any new street legal oil does not have enough metal in it, because even diesels have O2 sensors and catalysts now. I don't recommend any racing oil because racing oils are for 1 weekend of use, not long term chugging around in the dirt.
