Cam And Lifter Woes

[Grayscale]

15W is too viscous for this time of year.

I would love to measure/quantify some of this wear that has been photographed. A straight edge and feeler for the lifters? Mic or calipers for the cam lobes?

When I was looking into the whole diesel in a gas motor, it kinda ended at "lubricity." Like the old snake oil additives don't keep up with the new tech for oil.

 

[Spike Strip]

I no longer use any zinc additives, only oils with 1500-1700 ppm ZDDP (old SE, SF, SG spec), formulated for flat-tappet engines, like Lucas Hot Rod or their Diesel Magnum line...

Problem with additives, particularly regularly using an additive designed for break-in, is their zddp concentration can be upwards of 20K - 30K ppm. Way too much for anything but the first half-hour of break-in. Too much ZDDP is just as bad as too little (see link).

Optimal range for these Zinc compounds should be around the 1700 ppm mark, and even at that, it's depleted at 3-5K miles, depending on how hard the engine is run.

Anti-wear additives are dangerous unless you know the concentration of the base oil and the concentration of the additive and add just enough of it to the 8 qts to achieve a 1500-2500 ppm ZDDP.

Can you have too much Zinc? | Anglo American Oil Company

Can you have too much Zinc? Everybody knows you need to have zinc or ZDDP in your engine oil to protect your high lift cams, flat tappet cams and high spring pressure valve trains. High performance and aggressive racing engines need quite a lot more zinc than typical modern API rated oils can...

aaoil.co.uk

 

[middlecalf]

15W is too viscous for this time of year.

Well the only 5w40 diesel oil I find is full synthetic, and I don’t think Jim‘s a big fan of synthetic in these old tractor motors, hence the reason I quoted him to see if the 5w40 he posted was a mistake. I could be wrong, I’ll let him address this if he’s inclined to. I trust his judgement.

 

[Grayscale]

I wonder what kind of pressure is necessary to bleed a hot cylinder of combustion gasses when you press down on an exhaust valve?

Looking at the crews in my town, something like a 22re is a way more common "tractor motor." Do they mean low-rev, long piston stroke as the definition of tractor?

 

[Steamer]

Thought I would measure the cam to get an idea of how much scuffed off metal might have circulated around. Not as bad as I expected. No telling how much came off the lifters but, I now remember checking the valve lash around the middle of this year and only a few required a tiny bit of adjustment and I really could have left those alone.

 

[Grayscale]

Is there a difference between original and new lifters regarding diameter? I don't know if that will cause them to spin or not, but, I'm curious.

 

[middlecalf]

Here’s what the F-Engine Repair Manual says wrt lifter diameter:

There isn’t anything wrt lifter height, only when installing the lifters and adjusting the “tappet clearance“ (or lash I guess), approximately :

 

[Grayscale]

It is going to be tricky to measure the valve lifter bore at home. A set of pin gauges would be hard to find. A telescoping gauge set is necessary at minimum. The reason is using a pair of calipers, they don't fit the same as two spherical feelers in a space like that. It takes practice to get your gauge set. but it is totally doable.

Now you might just get a reamer that is the correct over-size and that would be a no-measure deal, but, it is always nice to not modify a block if you don't have to.

 

[Steamer]

I just measured some lifters.

Old lifters .9875 to .9880 (measured all 12)
New ITM lifters .9880 (measured 4)
CCOT lifter .9865 (measured 1)

 

[Steamer]

A telescoping gauge set is necessary at minimum.

Yeh, I don't have one but looking at "THIS". But I Dunno. The bores look good and feel good with my finger. I couldn't detect any side-to-side movement with the old lifters. I may just put in the new standard size ones and call it good. But who knows what I'll click on after another beer lol.

 

[Steamer]

Some measuring pics for kicks.

 

[Grayscale]

Yeh, I don't have one but looking at "THIS". But I Dunno. The bores look good and feel good with my finger. I couldn't detect any side-to-side movement with the old lifters. I may just put in the new standard size ones and call it good. But who knows what I'll click on after another beer lol.

I have a Brown and Sharpe set that was innexpensive. The problem is there isn't any better tech for the better ones, so you still need skill. I wouldn't write-off the HF ones, yet, it is just a fancy set-screw, spring and the right shape of some metal.

 

[rainingagain]

Some measuring pics for kicks.

View attachment 3203274

View attachment 3203276

View attachment 3203282

Lots of good discussions in this thread. It's obvious that the lifters are not rotating properly. The cam lobes are ground with a slight taper to induce rotation (I think I saw this discussed in an earlier post). What were your measurements?

This really only happens with a worn or mis-ground cam.

 

[Steamer]

The cam lobes are ground with a slight taper to induce rotation (I think I

Check out post #28 in this thread. I consider Jim C as a top authority and wouldn’t doubt him. What is puzzling though is, the lobe wear is off center, but the lifter wear is centered. Anyway, new cam & lifters are going in.

What were your measurements?

Cam measurements in post # 45. Lifter measurements in #49.

This really only happens with a worn or mis-ground cam.

Who knows. There's a group of folks here that are happy with their Delta regrinds and so was I. I'm more inclined to think it was something on may part.

 

[rainingagain]

Check out post #28 in this thread. I consider Jim C as a top authority and wouldn’t doubt him. What is puzzling though is, the lobe wear is off center, but the lifter wear is centered. Anyway, new cam & lifters are going in.


Cam measurements in post # 45. Lifter measurements in #49.


Who knows. There's a group of folks here that are happy with their Delta regrinds and so was I. I'm more inclined to think it was something on may part.

Interesting. I missed that detail. I've pretty much exclusively worked on post-war engine tech so this is going to send me down a rabbit hole haha.

There was a recent post about another delta regrind that had some interesting run out. Keep us posted on how the new cam looks!

 

[Grayscale]

I can lend my Brown and Sharpe, stamped "USA" telescoping gauges if anyone needs them; USPS small box. Lifter bores, cylinder bores, etc. I also have a nice Starrett combination square. The rule and the head on the combination square are good enough on most combination squares for measuring planes if you place a feeler gauge under them - you might need to remove burrs from improper tool handling, but, they usually work for shadetree mechanic purposes.

An old trick that a I learned from a Navy machinist was using a cigarette paper to feel out .001-inch. If you place the paper in a space and you are pulling it and the paper rips it tells you quite a bit more than noticing slight resistance on a metal feeler gauge. We could find where a part was in a milling machine vise by mounting an exact size pin in the spindle of a milling machine, and moving the table until the drag of the paper was enough to tear it against the part in the vice. I could see using the paper in the bore of the block, in conjunction with a telescoping gauge, to get a better sense of the size and roundness of the lifter bores. When you simply set the telescoping gauges, you have to do a careful dance to not collapse them against the sides of the bore, having that paper in there would tell me how tight it is set without moving/wiggling the actual tool to find out. Then once your telescoping gauge is totally set tight, then carefully remove it from the bore. Check the size between the two convex plungers on the bench with your calipers, or micrometer (preferred for greater precision), accounting for the .001" of the cigarette paper. I can also lend out an up to 1" micrometer, or a 1"-2"micrometer.

 

[FJ40Jim]

Well the only 5w40 diesel oil I find is full synthetic, and I don’t think Jim‘s a big fan of synthetic in these old tractor motors, hence the reason I quoted him to see if the 5w40 he posted was a mistake. I could be wrong, I’ll let him address this if he’s inclined to. I trust his judgement.

Yes, 5W40 is the synth equivalent to 15W40 diesmal oil. They are all fine for these old tractor engines, as long as there is enough metal in the oil, usually from a ZDDP or MOS2 additive. The 15W40 has been going up in price, and the 5W40 M1 TDT or Rotella T6 has been on sale, so the synth is only a few dollars more per gallon.

 

[Steamer]

I can lend my Brown and Sharpe, stamped "USA" telescoping gauges if anyone needs them;

That's a nice offer. But since the lifters seemed snug in there and I’ve already got new standard size lifters, I’m gonna call it good.

 

[PabloCruise]

Anyway, new cam & lifters are going in.

What is your choice for new cam? What lifters will you use?

 

[Steamer]

What is your choice for new cam? What lifters will you use?

ITM cam and lifters from Rock Auto. I would have preferred the Melling MC803 but I don't think it's available. I say that because places like Summit, Jegs, and Autozone say it ships from supplier. The Melling web page doesn't show it. And when I called and inquired, all Melling said was that the number is still in the system but there are none available. They couldn't tell if they were discontinued or if they will get more. So I just moved on. I've got all the parts. Tomorrow is flush day for oil and cooling system and then it'll start going back together.