Birf soup (1 Viewer)

[Ronald Rooij]

We've had an issue with the knuckle during our last trip through Bolivia. (LX450, 115K). Hope someone can help finding the solution.

At approx 104K the right-hand front knuckle was leaking. After dismantling we found that there was a groove in de drive shaft were the axle seal sits.
We replaced the shaft and seal, placed new knuckle bearings, new wheel bearing/seals and new scraper.
However after 5K miles oil came through the hub-cap. Checking the knuckle through the check-hole, the grease inside was thin.
We when to a roadside disasembled everything, cleaned, replaced the axle seal, regreased and put everything back together. The shop did most of the work according my directions. I had all the tools with me as well as CV-grease, diff-oil, gaskets, seals.

After about 1000 miles we lost the hub-cap and it started leaking at the axle. I did a temporary repair as we could not source a fitting hub-cap.

We made it back home were I disassebled everything again. Birf soup again, but the axle seal still appeared to be in good condition.
I noticed some play between the birf-axle and the broze bushing in the spindle. Bushing is without damages pitting and such. I have about the same play on the left-hand side.
The birfield is quite new, has no notiable play and maybe 15K miles.
I was planning to replace the bushings in the spindle but I am not sure if this will solve it.

Any suggestions were to look?

 

[Comet]

Check to make sure the small metal retaining spring is still inside the axle seal. The spring is a circle retained by the rubber seal. I have detached mine when I was a little too vigorous in seating the axle back into the rig. Also verify your axle breather tube is clear. Grease and oil will take the path of least resistance.

 

[Ronald Rooij]

Check to make sure the small metal retaining spring is still inside the axle seal. The spring is a circle retained by the rubber seal. I have detached mine when I was a little too vigorous in seating the axle back into the rig. Also verify your axle breather tube is clear. Grease and oil will take the path of least resistance.

Thanks,
the seal is still intact, so maybe were the other ones I replaced before.
The breather hose is clear. When we still had the original axle hub, the oil/grease was pushed through.

 

[Comet]

Sounds good. Visually check on the back side/inside the axle that the circular spring is there. I wish you luck on this. It can be frustrating and rewarding all at the same time.

 

[BILT4ME]

Thanks,
the seal is still intact, so maybe were the other ones I replaced before.
The breather hose is clear. When we still had the original axle hub, the oil/grease was pushed through.

The breather hose, fitting and the breather itself cannot be clogged or restricted.

If you happened to be going from the road then through water holes and back out, the sudden change in temps can cause grease to be sucked from the birfs into the housing and vis-versa, particularly if there is any buildup in the breather.

There are some of the fittings I have seen that had a tiny orifice instead of a full open fitting. Those tend to clog over with old oil and grease. I drilled out mine to eliminate the orifice action and allow the overflow to drain back into the housing. Unscrew the fitting from the housing, check the fitting AND check the housing. Mine had what looked like a glob of hard earwax covering where the fitting was and I had to us a drill bit (by hand) to clear all the areas.

 

[Kernal]

Something doesn't sound quite right; a groove in the right axle shaft from the axle seal with (only) a bit over 100,000 miles on the vehicle?? Is that the original shaft?

If there is a deep wear groove the lips of a new seal won't be contacting the shaft enough to seal correctly. Some people install a new OEM seal a bit deeper than they usually sit, and some people use aftermarket seals of a slightly different design where the lips ride in a different spot on the shaft.

Are your drive flanges original and the same height (thickness) side to side? If the right side is too short that might explain losing the grease cap (or the grease cap was the wrong size or not installed correctly).

Were the knuckle studs and nuts, steering arm, and top trunnion cap all tight on that side?? If the knuckle studs aren't tightened well first no matter how much you tighten the nuts the assembly will loosen up. And then if you've been running with loose knuckle studs the threaded holes could have gotten ovaled out.

And if the spindle bushing on that side is ovaled out then the CV joint and axle shaft could wobble off axis potentially allowing the axle seal to leak.

Can you post up photos of what you find?

 

[Ronald Rooij]

Something doesn't sound quite right; a groove in the right axle shaft from the axle seal with (only) a bit over 100,000 miles on the vehicle?? Is that the original shaft?

If there is a deep wear groove the lips of a new seal won't be contacting the shaft enough to seal correctly. Some people install a new OEM seal a bit deeper than they usually sit, and some people use aftermarket seals of a slightly different design where the lips ride in a different spot on the shaft.

Are your drive flanges original and the same height (thickness) side to side? If the right side is too short that might explain losing the grease cap (or the grease cap was the wrong size or not installed correctly).

Were the knuckle studs and nuts, steering arm, and top trunnion cap all tight on that side?? If the knuckle studs aren't tightened well first no matter how much you tighten the nuts the assembly will loosen up. And then if you've been running with loose knuckle studs the threaded holes could have gotten ovaled out.

And if the spindle bushing on that side is ovaled out then the CV joint and axle shaft could wobble off axis potentially allowing the axle seal to leak.

Can you post up photos of what you find?

Hi,

I bought the car about 7 years ago in a neglected state. No real maintenance had been done. At maybe 95K or so I had the front axle serviced by someone else. (the guy has a lot of experience with these cars). I was present the whole time to learn how to do it myself. He replaced the seal and pushed it a bit further down because of a little wear on the right-hand axle. We also put a new birf in because the original one was a bit worn.

We have drive quite a lot through wet savanna's with very fine sand and bad laterite roads. After a few thousand miles the right-hand knuckle was leaking.
I then replaced the drive-shaft and axle seal. I also put in new knuckle bearings. Trunnion cap was not removed, studs are all in and nuts tightened to spec.

Drive flanges are original. I have not checked it in detail but as far as I remember there was no play on the splines.

The spindle bushes look ok and the play on the right-hand side seems te be the same as the left-hand side which is not leaking. I did not measure anything also because I could not find any references to dimensions.

Problem is that I came to thinking that maybe the spindlebushing is the main reason for the seal to leak when I was back home in The Netherlands while the car is in Suriname, South-America.
Because part supply is minimal in Surinam I ordered 2 aftermarket spindles at Partsouq. The order was accepted, however they cancelled 2 days later because of no stock.
I will be back in Surinam in March and will try to measure and take some pictures

 

[jpoole]

There were two drive flange thicknesses here in the US 80 series models delivered. An earlier, thinner drive flange and a later, thicker drive flange. The width of the splined, male end of the Birfield/CV joints you use have to match the flange thickness that is installed. I don't know if you have the same possibility of mismatch there but I'll describe this a little more just in case it's helpful.

I've seen folks replace Birfield/CV joints and the new Birfield/CV comes in with a longer splined/male end that is compatible with the later/thicker drive flanges. They install that new Birf/CV and reinstall their older/thinner drive flange and then there is extra movement of the Birf/CV and axle shaft it's connected to. The Birf/CV will travel out to it's more "correct" position and knock off the dust cap, etc. which connects to one of your provided clues.

No idea if this is happening in your case but I'd definitely check it along with the thorough cleaning of the breather system and elbow prescribed above.

There are many benefits to getting the axle end assembly tight and correctly setup. Keeping the lubricants where they should be is a big one but safer, better driving is another.

Good luck and as mentioned share photos when you can.

 

[Ronald Rooij]

There were two drive flange thicknesses here in the US 80 series models delivered. An earlier, thinner drive flange and a later, thicker drive flange. The width of the splined, male end of the Birfield/CV joints you use have to match the flange thickness that is installed. I don't know if you have the same possibility of mismatch there but I'll describe this a little more just in case it's helpful.

I've seen folks replace Birfield/CV joints and the new Birfield/CV comes in with a longer splined/male end that is compatible with the later/thicker drive flanges. They install that new Birf/CV and reinstall their older/thinner drive flange and then there is extra movement of the Birf/CV and axle shaft it's connected to. The Birf/CV will travel out to it's more "correct" position and knock off the dust cap, etc. which connects to one of your provided clues.

No idea if this is happening in your case but I'd definitely check it along with the thorough cleaning of the breather system and elbow prescribed above.

There are many benefits to getting the axle end assembly tight and correctly setup. Keeping the lubricants where they should be is a big one but safer, better driving is another.

Good luck and as mentioned share photos when you can.

I think the birfield and drive-flange match. When I pull out the birfield to place the snap-ring on the splined shaft theres is maybe 1-2mm play.
I did not watch the mechanics put the hub-cap back on the last install. I assume they just did something wrong or the fitting was becoming too loose.

Thanks again everybody for the swift replies. I will use the forum when I am working on the car in March. I can do pictures and measurements then.
My hope was to find a solution before we leave so I can order parts from here if required.