Playing devils advocate, by using the Acura/Honda, et al analogy, I believe that dennis was referring to one being a subsidiary of the same company. Not referring to product similarities. Granted he said that the tires were "equals", but again I believe he was referring to intended use more than actual similarities in the tires. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
BFG vs Nitto. Lookin for Some A/T's
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BFG AT gets my vote 
I'm sure thats it. Whats similar to one person can be a huge difference to another. The tread pattern differences are what I look at when saying they are not the same. I can see how one would say similiar if they use the same rubber in the same plant, but again thats subjective
Yes, I was speaking in generalities. To me they're the same tiire. Same plant, same casing, same tread compound. The only difference is in the branding and tread blocks, and honestly I'm not that sophisticated to figure our which of the latter is better. To me the OCAT and NTG are virtually identical, with size preference and cost being the final determinant (no perceived value/performance difference). And it took a while to find the data (you'd think this would be on their website) but they both have a UTQG of 500 for the smaller sized tires which leads me to believe it's the same outer rubber.
But I do agree that their respective MT's are different on the blocking (however, in the pictures Ken posted, I think if one of the tires was mounted the other direction they'd look a lot more similar). For the AT's the difference in tread is there but much less so.
The ^^^pics of the OCAT and TG are a little deceiving. If you compare them in real life the TG has a more open tread block/more void. From the side perspective the TG almost looks like an MT whereas the OCAT appears more like a highway type tire.
I would offer the OCAT is performance slanted more towards hard/road surfaces whereas the TG is slanted more towards off-road surfaces while still maintaining an AT tread pattern...
This based upon comparing my OCATs and locrwln's TG (then).
I keep e-mailing Nitto to offer the TG in 285-75R18. I invite others that would like to see Nitto offer this size to do the same. Nitto Tire - Fueled by Enthusiasts
Further: The sidewalls on my E rated Toyo OC AT's are virtually identical, in terms of case construction and thickness as its OC MT brother. And as Romer stated Toyo sidewalls (at least their E rated MT and AT tires) have some of the thickest and toughest sidewalls in their respective categories. Of course the penalty for this is overall weight.
But, I've poked holes in all my MT/R and MT/R Kevlar tires whereas I've never had a puncture with any of the 8 Toyo OC AT tires I've ran/run with 10's of thousands of similar road/off-road/trail miles covered with each.
I would offer the OCAT is performance slanted more towards hard/road surfaces whereas the TG is slanted more towards off-road surfaces while still maintaining an AT tread pattern...
This based upon comparing my OCATs and locrwln's TG (then).
I keep e-mailing Nitto to offer the TG in 285-75R18. I invite others that would like to see Nitto offer this size to do the same. Nitto Tire - Fueled by Enthusiasts
Further: The sidewalls on my E rated Toyo OC AT's are virtually identical, in terms of case construction and thickness as its OC MT brother. And as Romer stated Toyo sidewalls (at least their E rated MT and AT tires) have some of the thickest and toughest sidewalls in their respective categories. Of course the penalty for this is overall weight.
But, I've poked holes in all my MT/R and MT/R Kevlar tires whereas I've never had a puncture with any of the 8 Toyo OC AT tires I've ran/run with 10's of thousands of similar road/off-road/trail miles covered with each.
cruiser100
Comfortably Numb
I've had both the NTG and BFG AT KO - they both SUCK in the mud. The NTG's were a bit better with slick rocks, etc, but nothing the right pedal couldn't fix. Both were great in the rain, and good in snow AND ice (pulled an F250 up an icy hill with the NTG's and a Crown Vic PI up an icy embankment with the BFG's).
Ice doesn't give a crap what kind of tires you're running unless they're studded, and all AT's suck in the mud (unless you're doing 80+).
Ice doesn't give a crap what kind of tires you're running unless they're studded, and all AT's suck in the mud (unless you're doing 80+).
Obviously the Toyo's Open Country MT's have the strongest sidewalls but they're also a lot more expensive and heavy.
I think I read that the sidewalls of the BFG's are 3 ply. Are the BFG AT's sidewalls stronger than the Nitto TG's?
I think I read that the sidewalls of the BFG's are 3 ply. Are the BFG AT's sidewalls stronger than the Nitto TG's?
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Pretty sure (not positive) that the OCAT and NTG both have 10 ply tread and 3 ply sides.
Edit: according to the specs on the different sites, Dennis is correct
Not sure if the original question on the NTG was for their AT (Terra Grappler) or MT (Trail Grappler) so Dennis and my answer might be for different questions
Based on owning both the BFG at NT AT's. I think the sidewall is similar.
I compared the sidewall to the NG AT when they took it off the rim with the Toyo MT they were about to put on the rim and there was significant difference in thickness plus weight.
Again my comparrison is the NT AT to the Toyo MT. I have no experiance with the NT MT or the Toyo AT. Although, 1Loudlx has both the Toyo AT and MT and he could tell you the difference there. I think Dan stated earlier that the sidewall on the Toyo AT and MT are the same.
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re_guderian
SILVER Star
Is there actually some standardized definition of the word "ply" wrt tire sidewalls? i.e. thickness, etc.
Typos sent from my HTC EVO using the IH8MUD app...
Typos sent from my HTC EVO using the IH8MUD app...
was looking through their site and finding construction info wasnt easy. Best I could come up with was the link to the brochure
On page 38, it says the E rated tires have a 10 ply rating for the AT's and same thing on an earlier page for the MT. When I read that, I didn't think that was for the sdiewall but where the tread was
Page 6 says the sidewall on the trail grappler is 3 ply
Digging on the Toyo site says the sidewall is also 3 ply
But I know from physically looking at the two the Toyo is thicker and heavier on the sidewall. Hmm
Searching some more I found this comment about the Toyo's "the Open Country M/T uses an abrasion-resistant compound in the sidewall," I am guessing what I saw was additional rubber on top of the 3-ply
Brochure on the toyo
On page 38, it says the E rated tires have a 10 ply rating for the AT's and same thing on an earlier page for the MT. When I read that, I didn't think that was for the sdiewall but where the tread was
Page 6 says the sidewall on the trail grappler is 3 ply
Digging on the Toyo site says the sidewall is also 3 ply
But I know from physically looking at the two the Toyo is thicker and heavier on the sidewall. Hmm
Searching some more I found this comment about the Toyo's "the Open Country M/T uses an abrasion-resistant compound in the sidewall," I am guessing what I saw was additional rubber on top of the 3-ply
Brochure on the toyo
Me thinks there is some brilliance in how they've been able to capture a wider market by splitting the brand. The withholding of easy access to such basic information as tire weight and the staggering of size offerings makes the apples:apples comparison even more difficult.
Bottom line, they're both great tires. Just like buying a truck, I'd recommend that anyone making a purchase decision go and look at the tires in person and talk with the installers about how the tires tend to wear and grip. At the end of the day, any of the major brands we're talking about won't likely make the difference between a successful trip and a failed venture for the average MUD expeditioner. The more I spend in this hobby the more I learn that it's the creature comforts, system redundancies, and most importantly friends you wheel with that make so much more of a difference than the lettering on the side of your tires.
Bottom line, they're both great tires. Just like buying a truck, I'd recommend that anyone making a purchase decision go and look at the tires in person and talk with the installers about how the tires tend to wear and grip. At the end of the day, any of the major brands we're talking about won't likely make the difference between a successful trip and a failed venture for the average MUD expeditioner. The more I spend in this hobby the more I learn that it's the creature comforts, system redundancies, and most importantly friends you wheel with that make so much more of a difference than the lettering on the side of your tires.
I think Nitto was its own corp until the late 70's when they combined forces. I believe Toyo wholly owns Nitto now. At one time the tires were manufactured, respectively, in different plants. That may not be the case today.
Regarding plies: I think you'll find a difference in the actual thickness of a given tire sidewall when comparing E rated to D rated carcasses; at least that's what I've noticed on the few I've owned. And I don't believe there is any uniformity regarding the ability to compare sidewall thickness, beyond the # of plies and maybe the material used in the ply itself, between not only different brands but also within the same brand.
Regarding plies: I think you'll find a difference in the actual thickness of a given tire sidewall when comparing E rated to D rated carcasses; at least that's what I've noticed on the few I've owned. And I don't believe there is any uniformity regarding the ability to compare sidewall thickness, beyond the # of plies and maybe the material used in the ply itself, between not only different brands but also within the same brand.
re_guderian
SILVER Star
I think you're right. The 8 and 10 ply load ratings are radial tire load equivalents. It seems there are no standards for what a 3-ply sidewall means, other than a construction method, and not necessarily related to cut resistance, more likely sidewall flexibility and load capability? But no guarantee that one 3-ply is anything like another maker's 3-ply.spressomon said:
Typos sent from my HTC EVO using the IH8MUD app...
I just got dumber reading this thread. Fighting over what tire is better is like trying to compare one man's taste in women to another. Post your opinion and move on. Quite wasting readers time.
Blonde, white, southern women are best and so are nitto terra grapplers because they're cheaper and have. More aggressive tread pattern. Maybe the sidewalls are stronger too.
