BBK for 2013 (1 Viewer)

[doru]

Hi all,
looking for a BBK for a 2013 LX.

To save you the reading here is the question first: does anyone have experience with the StopTech big brakes 6 pot front and/or 4 pot rear?

Here is what options I looked at. All are bolt on options, and if over the many years the car will live (hopefully) they get discontinued or parts not available, I can bolt on the OEM hardware back anytime. I kind of like the SOS options as the price is Ok and I can re-balance the front/back brake distribution using 4 piston caliper with larger disk. They do require 20" wheels, but that is not a problem for LX OEM wheels. If I need more tire later I'll probably also want some AT tires. Switching to 33 AT tires will give me more tire.

I saw the Tundra option and that might me the fallback, front only.

I got that the 2016+ brakes are better but a no go as they are not direct bolt on and there is no adapter kit.

I saw the TRD's for Tundra PNTR0900150 and they are available from dealer for $2200. This again is a front only option. The kit on Toyota dealer web site is 6 pistons in pics / 4 pistons in description. Not sure which one is correct. The rotor is listed as 323x32mm but that is smaller than the OEM. I'm not sure that's correct either. It might actually be close to 355mm. Please chime in if you know what the actual values are.

I saw StopTech touring kit for 6 pistons PN:82.874.6D00.21 for $2824 using ST-60 calipers, and Trophy Sport kit PN:82.874.6D00.R1 for a boat of cash: $3512 using STR-60 calipers. Both come with 380x35mm rotors. They are front only.

SOS Performance is also using the same StopTech calipers, ST-60 and same rotors, but more reasonable priced at $2298.
They also offer a rear kit with either ST-60 calipers or the more appropriate ST-41 calipers that are 4 pistons for $1898. Both use 380mm rotors but I do not know if the same thickness.

There is a front kit from Wilwood 140-15473-R 6 pistons 362x31.8mm 2 piece rotors at $2463 and 140-15474-R for the rear with 4 pistons and 368x28mm rotors at $1995.
What I do not like is the 2-piece rotor that is expensive to replace, the fact that you need to remove the calipers to change pads, and the custom brake line fitting.
On the plus side they say it should fit under some 18" wheels.

Thanks!

 

[bloc]

What is your intended use for this vehicle?

 

[doru]

Not a rock crawler if that is the concern It will see a lot of highway, plenty of forest roads more or less maintained, and maybe a bit of off road.

 

[bloc]

What have you done to the stock brakes to see if they’ll meet your needs? They can haul down speed at an impressive rate for such a large vehicle.. they just can’t do it over and over like on a track.

Which is why I asked.. outside of track use big brake kits often aren’t worth the money and usually reduced reliability.

 

[linuxgod]

I know lots of folks are set on improving the brakes. IMO if you're not towing or tracking your vehicle the stock brakes are fine. As @bloc points out, when you stomp the brakes they can lock up the ABS and stop you quite fast. I moved from ceramic to metallic (HD) brake pads, which are noisy/groany at very low speed but do hold up better to fade when towing and using the brakes a lot, particularly on mountainous descents (and I still downshift a lot).

Most people looking for bigger brakes are actually looking for a different brake *feel*. For some reason Toyota engineered the power brake booster and master cylinder to feel like you're stepping on a wet sponge. I can only assume it was done that way so braking a 7000# vehicle would feel soft and comfy. But I can confirm the brakes themselves will lock up and stop you really f*cking quick if you stomp them while cruising at 70mph with a 3 ton trailer attached when a flat bed truck changes lanes and the PCS kicks in.

In my experience with towing I've found if you downshift and rev the engine that the brakes are a lot more sensitive. Revving the engine like that also boosts the trailer brakes, even at the same speed. I suspect if you go out and use S mode and drive a bit in a gear or two lower than normal and then apply the brakes you'll find they feel a lot sportier. Which leads me to believe the real fix is for the community to figure out how to run the power brake booster at higher vacuum/voltage/whatever controls it all the time.

Note I have NFC how to accomplish the above at this time, but I'm pretty confident it would be a much cheaper and more effective "fix" for most of those in the forum.

 

[boringdriver]

In my experience with towing I've found if you downshift and rev the engine that the brakes are a lot more sensitive. Revving the engine like that also boosts the trailer brakes, even at the same speed. I suspect if you go out and use S mode and drive a bit in a gear or two lower than normal and then apply the brakes you'll find they feel a lot sportier. Which leads me to believe the real fix is for the community to figure out how to run the power brake booster at higher vacuum/voltage/whatever controls it all the time.

Note I have NFC how to accomplish the above at this time, but I'm pretty confident it would be a much cheaper and more effective "fix" for most of those in the forum.

Wow, that is quite an interesting observation and hypothesis. Somebody figure this out, @linuxgod is on to something!

 

[TeCKis300]

I do agree a lot of this comes down to intended use case. There's not a lot of on-road use cases that do tax the the stock brakes. There are some and I'll get back to that. The stock brakes are pretty stout and by no means a cut rate setup. This is a premium vehicle after all with solid and balanced capability all around.

As one that has previously installed Brembo BBKs and others on my previous cars, for the track... They may not be a bolt as as they appear. At least no more bolt on than the Tundra BBK setup. The larger calipers and rotors may necessitate trimming the brake shield for the larger aftermarket caliper. And will require re-shaping the shield for clearance against the larger rotor. The Tundra only requires minor re-shaping of the shield at the rotor lip. And the DIY retainer which could be as easy as tie wraps or adhesives. I still think a custom line could be made for reasonable cost then it'll truly drop in.

Most all aftermarket BBKs are superior in weight, using aluminum calipers. And two piece rotors that may use an aluminum hat. This has advantages beyond just braking as it can make huge differences to unsprung weight which benefits the suspension and handling.

Back to road use that may require BBKs, or more thermal capacity. It's not going to be the single braking application where it may make a lot of difference. But the repeated braking events back to back. I visit the mountains a lot and is where I find I really can use the added capacity. Particularly when laden with 15k combined vehicle weight when towing an 8k trailer. May also apply to heavily built overlanding rigs. I tend to drive a bit aggressively, and it's the tight secondary roads, with switchback after switchback on 7%+ grades that the added thermal capacity really is needed. Even when judiciously using 2nd and 3rd gear engine braking. With a string of cars following, I do usually try to maintain some flow. Only way to do that is to accelerate after curves, and brake before the next.

The BBKs also help tremendously to recoup braking torque for my 35s. Sure, I can muscle them and get the braking I need with stock calipers, but it's not safe if my wife were to drive it. Especially as she drives a Tesla with 1-pedal driving. It was important to make the brakes work similar to stock pedal pressures. I do also have Hawk HPS pads combined with my Tundra BBKs. It all works gloriusly.

All that said, there can be too much brake friction and leverage where it could make the brake feel overly sensitive and harder to modulate. Unless there specific use cases, I would temper the want to go BBKs just for the cool factor.

 

[TeCKis300]

In my experience with towing I've found if you downshift and rev the engine that the brakes are a lot more sensitive. Revving the engine like that also boosts the trailer brakes, even at the same speed. I suspect if you go out and use S mode and drive a bit in a gear or two lower than normal and then apply the brakes you'll find they feel a lot sportier. Which leads me to believe the real fix is for the community to figure out how to run the power brake booster at higher vacuum/voltage/whatever controls it all the time.

I'm not so sure.

Trailer brakes, modulated by the trailer brake controller, works on the principle of proportional braking sensed by inertial accelerometers. The brake controller has no sense of whether the tow vehicle braking is with brake calipers or engine braking. To you point, with more engine braking, it has the effect of translating more brake caliper brake bias to the trailer.

That is actually what drove me to get bigger brakes. I've faded the brakes on the trailer on more than one occasions. With judicious engine braking, the tow vehicle brakes caliper temps can be managed and stay relatively cool. But the trailer brakes work just as hard or harder when governed by proportional inertial braking. With 15k worth of rig and aggressively large tires, it was important for me to make sure the brake system was up to snuf in any emergency situation.

Two ways to mitigate too much trailer braking
1) Do not to ride the brakes, as the trailer brakes don't activate proportional braking unless the brake lamps are on. Brake in short strong applications.
2) Use relatively less trailer brake gain. This has two dangers. It's important to have enough trailer brake gain to manage trailer momentum so that ultimately the trailer never tries to overtake the tow vehicle in the form of sway. Yet not too much gain such that the trailer brakes do too much relative work as they tend to use drum brakes that doesn't shed heat as effectively.

 

[linuxgod]

I'm not so sure.

Trailer brakes, modulated by the trailer brake controller, works on the principle of proportional braking sensed by inertial accelerometers. The brake controller has no sense of whether the tow vehicle braking is with brake calipers or engine braking. To you point, with more engine braking, it has the effect of translating more brake caliper brake bias to the trailer.

That is actually what drove me to get bigger brakes. I've faded the brakes on the trailer on more than one occasions. With judicious engine braking, the tow vehicle brakes caliper temps can be managed and stay relatively cool. But the trailer brakes work just as hard or harder when governed by proportional inertial braking. With 15k worth of rig and aggressively large tires, it was important for me to make sure the brake system was up to snuf in any emergency situation.

Two ways to mitigate too much trailer braking
1) Do not to ride the brakes, as the trailer brakes don't activate proportional braking unless the brake lamps are on. Brake in short strong applications.
2) Use relatively less trailer brake gain. This has two dangers. It's important to have enough trailer brake gain to manage trailer momentum so that ultimately the trailer never tries to overtake the tow vehicle in the form of sway. Yet not too much gain such that the trailer brakes do too much relative work as they tend to use drum brakes that doesn't shed heat as effectively.

There's definitely a huge difference in trailer braking force when I downshift to 3rd or 2nd as I approach a stop light. Since I went to 4.88s it's a lot more pronounced, to the point where the trailer brakes often feel "hot" and might lock up when I'm revving 3k RPMs in a 2nd gear downshift, but conversely seem to do **** all when I'm braking at the same low speed and letting the transmission work it's way down to the lower gears. That said I've noticed an "improvement" in braking (improved feeling, really) if I downshift similarly without the trailer. Try both next time you're out (both with and without the trailer) and let me know if you notice it too.

BTW #1 is a non-issue for me. #2 is a huge issue as with 4.88s I find I get a LOT more braking force whenever the engine downshifts as I approach a light, but very little braking help until it does, even as I brake harder. i.e. if I don't downshift I have to use a lot of force to stop but if I do I will often jerk to a stop near the end because the trailer brakes are gripping.

FWIW I've not looked closely at the trailer brake voltage but I suspect in that case the higher boost from the power brake booster is registering a higher voltage which in turn causes the trailer brakes to apply harder. But the interesting thing to me really is that I feel a difference in braking sensitivity even without the trailer attached. It's not quite like my wife's Mini, but when revving it's not the normal mushy LC brakes either.

(Note: I haven't looked at parts but it's entirely possible the LX brake booster is tuned differently than the LC, so that certainly *could* weigh into any differences between our setups as well).

 

[bloc]

With the brakes mostly operating via pressure stored in an accumulator, that is merely pumped into until the shut off pressure is reached, I don’t think it is a question of charge system voltage. Perhaps the brakes do keep track of engine rpm to predict aggressiveness of driving and alter brake application in kind, but for the average “dumb” car consumer this seems like it would only confuse the situation.

Lots of speculation here, I admit.

 

[TeCKis300]

Sorry to the OP if we've gone a bit off topic here. These are some of the variables and use cases where bigger brakes really make a world of difference.

FWIW I've not looked closely at the trailer brake voltage but I suspect in that case the higher boost from the power brake booster is registering a higher voltage which in turn causes the trailer brakes to apply harder. But the interesting thing to me really is that I feel a difference in braking sensitivity even without the trailer attached. It's not quite like my wife's Mini, but when revving it's not the normal mushy LC brakes either.

(Note: I haven't looked at parts but it's entirely possible the LX brake booster is tuned differently than the LC, so that certainly *could* weigh into any differences between our setups as well).

Just to clarify, trailer brake controllers don't interface with the tow vehicle brake system in the advanced way you may be thinking. It has zero awareness of brake pedal pressure. It only knows brakes are applied by way of the tail lamp and sensing inertial deceleration, then applying proportional trailer brakes in the form of voltage. Yes, crude. You'd think with as much technology as we have today, it could have a direct interface to brake pedal application, but it does not.

I think where our observations may differ more is because of the brake controllers. I use a Tekonsha P3. I believe you're currently using the Redarc? These likely use their own proprietary proportional algorithms and not to say one is better than the other. But I use the brake boost function on the Tekonsha to get a stronger initial trailer brake application (to keep the hitch in tension), that then gradually proportions more of the braking to the tow vehicle.

What I do notice, and perhaps some of what you're seeing too, is that the higher decel impulse of the transmission downshifting, seems to elicit more proportional braking from the trailer, than smooth applications of the brakes will. Your 4.88s probably are playing into this too relative to my 4.3s.

 

[lrowe_csp]

I recommend you contact mud member bjowett. Jowett Performance is his company and he researched BBK's and eventually came up with a great combination of parts. I have been running his tundra front rotors/calipers on my supercharged 200 series for three years and I am very happy with the combination of performance and reasonable price.

 

[linuxgod]

Sorry to the OP if we've gone a bit off topic here. These are some of the variables and use cases where bigger brakes really make a world of difference.



Just to clarify, trailer brake controllers don't interface with the tow vehicle brake system in the advanced way you may be thinking. It has zero awareness of brake pedal pressure. It only knows brakes are applied by way of the tail lamp and sensing inertial deceleration, then applying proportional trailer brakes in the form of voltage. Yes, crude. You'd think with as much technology as we have today, it could have a direct interface to brake pedal application, but it does not.

I think where our observations may differ more is because of the brake controllers. I use a Tekonsha P3. I believe you're currently using the Redarc? These likely use their own proprietary proportional algorithms and not to say one is better than the other. But I use the brake boost function on the Tekonsha to get a stronger initial trailer brake application (to keep the hitch in tension), that then gradually proportions more of the braking to the tow vehicle.

What I do notice, and perhaps some of what you're seeing too, is that the higher decel impulse of the transmission downshifting, seems to elicit more proportional braking from the trailer, than smooth applications of the brakes will. Your 4.88s probably are playing into this too relative to my 4.3s.

Yep I have the Redarc now, though I had the same experience with the Primus IQ in the truck previously.

FWIW the amount of voltage output to the brakes does vary, though it may well be due to the proportional nature and not due to pedal pressure or power brake booster. My old Primus would tell me the voltage it output at any given time, but the Redarc doesn't so I'm sort of guessing there.

I'm still keen to figure out if there's a way to increase the power brake booster output at lower RPM/idle as I still think it would improve the LC brake feel that most of the people doing brake upgrades are actually looking for.

 

[TeCKis300]

I'm still keen to figure out if there's a way to increase the power brake booster output at lower RPM/idle as I still think it would improve the LC brake feel that most of the people doing brake upgrades are actually looking for.

I think you'd benefit a lot from BBKs, Tundra brakes. You're running 34s, on a heavy build, and trailering. When I was running 33s at relatively stock weight, the stock brakes were noticeably underleveraged, less linear, and required higher than normal pedal pressures. When trailering, especially when coming close to full stop, I would feel like I need to squeeze on the brakes even harder. Pretty sure that's what you're experiencing.

Tundra BBKs with larger tires work brilliantly. It may be the best $300-400 dollars spent.

 

[linuxgod]

I think you'd benefit a lot from BBKs, Tundra brakes. You're running 34s, on a heavy build, and trailering. When I was running 33s at relatively stock weight, the stock brakes were noticeably underleveraged, less linear, and required higher than normal pedal pressures. When trailering, especially when coming close to full stop, I would feel like I need to squeeze on the brakes even harder. Pretty sure that's what you're experiencing.

Tundra BBKs with larger tires work brilliantly. It may be the best $300-400 dollars spent.

I didn't specifically consider a BBK, since when I searched a few years back it seemed like any significantly larger brake options required stepping up to 20" wheels and wouldn't work with 17s. Also they were super pricey. Maybe that's changed?

I did consider the Tundra (or 2016+ LC) conversion (which I wouldn't call a BBK kit), but admittedly I balked at the additional cost for calipers, lines, etc for what I expected to ultimately be a marginal improvement in stopping distance (even if the feel was better).

I will say that just swapping in new slotted rotors and HD pads the brakes felt more solid (and was only ~$500). I may still do an LC/Tundra conversion the next time I need brakes though

 

[TeCKis300]

I didn't specifically consider a BBK, since when I searched a few years back it seemed like any significantly larger brake options required stepping up to 20" wheels and wouldn't work with 17s. Also they were super pricey. Maybe that's changed?

I did consider the Tundra (or 2016+ LC) conversion (which I wouldn't call a BBK kit), but admittedly I balked at the additional cost for calipers, lines, etc for what I expected to ultimately be a marginal improvement in stopping distance (even if the feel was better).

I will say that just swapping in new slotted rotors and HD pads the brakes felt more solid (and was only ~$500). I may still do an LC/Tundra conversion the next time I need brakes though

When I researched years back, to your point, it wasn't clear how to adapt Tundra brakes. That's changed with what I've documented. It's a straight forward upgrade. More importantly, it works brilliantly, and should be compatible with RW 17" wheels, and similar. I've had real BBKs in other cars, and the Tundra setup is every bit that, with increased rotor sizes, more braking torque, and thermal capacity than the stock setup.

It's arguable, but from my track days needing no kidding brakes, I don't consider slotted rotors and upgrade. I do use the Tundra setup with more aggressive HPS Hawk pads so your HD pads are encouraged and can even be re-used.

DIY Tundra Brakes (BBK)

Time for bigger tires and with that, need a big brake kit (BBK). Thanks to the pioneers @TexAZ, @bjowett, and others before me, it's been known that upsized Tundra front brakes, rotor and caliper, largely bolt in. Here's my attempt to simplify the install for others that may want to tackle...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[bloc]

Slotted can be nice to help clear mud from the pad face off-road but it is hard to find truly toyota-OEM quality slotted rotors.

I do plan to do the tundra brake swap eventually but will be sticking with @bjowett original method of modifying the tundra caliper and banjo bolt to accept the stock 200-series brake line. And use the tundra backing plate with more slots.. even if I’m a little concerned with water splashes on hot rotors.

I personally feel that is a better method to attach the hydraulic circuit and toyota probably designed it that way (and different than the tundra) for a reason. Plus this addresses the brake line bracket issue.

I’ll also find a brake line that can adapt a stock tundra caliper and toss it into the roadtrip spare parts set in the event I need a caliper far from home.

 

[TeCKis300]

Slotted can be nice to help clear mud from the pad face off-road but it is hard to find truly toyota-OEM quality slotted rotors.

I do plan to do the tundra brake swap eventually but will be sticking with @bjowett original method of modifying the tundra caliper and banjo bolt to accept the stock 200-series brake line. And use the tundra backing plate with more slots.. even if I’m a little concerned with water splashes on hot rotors.

I personally feel that is a better method to attach the hydraulic circuit and toyota probably designed it that way (and different than the tundra) for a reason. Plus this addresses the brake line bracket issue.

I’ll also find a brake line that can adapt a stock tundra caliper and toss it into the roadtrip spare parts set in the event I need a caliper far from home.

I agree the Banjo is a more premium setup on the stock cruiser. Just so you're considering the full trade space of what you're looking to do though, particularly for a safety critical item.

- Modifying for a one off brake caliper configuration of unknown analysis, design, or quality to know such an interface configuration is safe (does the internal hydraulic channels allow enough meat to safely machine for threads and flush surface for a banjo)
- Trusting a machine shop tech, with no basis in caliper production, to safely customize a caliper, and to what spec?

I'm pretty bullish on modifications, but I personally wouldn't be bold enough to modify calipers.

Are you planning to go up in tire size as I think your build is rather light?

 

[bloc]

I agree the Banjo is a more premium setup on the stock cruiser. Just so you're considering the full trade space of what you're looking to do though, particularly for a safety critical item.

- Modifying for a one off brake caliper configuration of unknown analysis, design, or quality to know such an interface configuration is safe (does the internal hydraulic channels allow enough meat to safely machine for threads and flush surface for a banjo)
- Trusting a machine shop tech, with no basis in caliper production, to safely customize a caliper, and to what spec?

I'm pretty bullish on modifications, but I personally wouldn't be bold enough to modify calipers.

Are you planning to go up in tire size as I think your build is rather light?

The only required mods are facing the area of the caliper to seal against a crush washer and drilling a small blind hole for the indexing pin on the 200-series brake line end. No rethreading or other changes required to the critical hydraulic line interface.

I‘ll also need to mildly chamfer the ID of the end of the banjo bolt to avoid hitting the reverse flare inside the tundra caliper hydraulic port, but this shouldn’t significantly impact strength.

As for the concerns brought up by modifying calipers, they are fair. In this case the base parts are so similar I personally don’t have issues given the very mild required changes. Most of the work, and especially the stuff that physically keeps the hydraulic line attached to the caliper (the M10 drill and threading) has already been done by Toyota.

And it likely won’t be a machine shop tech. I’ll be doing the work.

Either way, my understanding is this is what Brian did with the original “tundra BBK“ setup that he sold many sets of and I don’t remember reading about any problems.

Yes my build is light but I drive it pretty hard. I‘m starting to sour on these TRD pads given how often I need to get them hot to smooth out uneven pad deposits. I’ll be looking into hawk and ebc options whenever I get around to these tundra brake part mods.

 

[TeCKis300]

The only required mods are facing the area of the caliper to seal against a crush washer and drilling a small blind hole for the indexing pin on the 200-series brake line end. No rethreading or other changes required to the critical hydraulic line interface.

I‘ll also need to mildly chamfer the ID of the end of the banjo bolt to avoid hitting the reverse flare inside the tundra caliper hydraulic port, but this shouldn’t significantly impact strength.

As for the concerns brought up by modifying calipers, they are fair. In this case the base parts are so similar I personally don’t have issues given the very mild required changes. Most of the work, and especially the stuff that physically keeps the hydraulic line attached to the caliper (the M10 drill and threading) has already been done by Toyota.

And it likely won’t be a machine shop tech. I’ll be doing the work.

Either way, my understanding is this is what Brian did with the original “tundra BBK“ setup that he sold many sets of and I don’t remember reading about any problems.

Yes my build is light but I drive it pretty hard. I‘m starting to sour on these TRD pads given how often I need to get them hot to smooth out uneven pad deposits. I’ll be looking into hawk and ebc options whenever I get around to these tundra brake part mods.

Sounds like you're going into this eyes wide open so more power to you.

Curiously, your Kings bring quite a bit more down travel. Have you confirmed your brake lines are good for it and have enough length margin? Tundra lines are incrementally longer which can be good for this application.