I think the question is "Is your frame strong enough to delete the need for ram assist?"
Axle swap considerations
- Thread starter archie73
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
I think the question is "Is your frame strong enough to delete the need for ram assist?"
I think if you're building a rock crawler- No. If you want 37ish tires to turn easy on mild/moderate stuff- Yes.
It used to be that the only Saginaw steering box with a forward facing pitman arm was from a Scout II. So that's what I did. I got some tubular diagonal cross brace on the frame there but nothing big, seems to steer 37s pretty well, haven't felt the need for a ram/assist but I drive pretty gently and baby my rig. Not hardcore and happy with my original axle housings.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2012
- Threads
- 341
- Messages
- 10,917
I think a 3rd gen 4runner/4 door tacoma on Ford axles is a good way to go.
- Thread starter
- #46
I have respect for those trucks. We have two at work, one I carpool in four days a week. All that said I don’t like the seating position…
Ditcherman
SILVER Star
Just catching up on this thread, lots of great info.
Be careful, you might change your mind once you build a link suspension on a long wheelbase on how fast you want to go. I won't pretend I have some kind of desert racer, but am kind of tempted to see what it could do. It is really nice riding imo, fun to go fast again.
Were these a pleasure trail rides or is that carnage from racing ?
Big difference IMO
For sure Dana 60 stuff is bigger and we all know bigger is better.
There are so many variables. I’m running the Toyota stuff because that’s what came in the truck.
I take it to very hard trail in the middle of nowhere with confidence.
One thing that has not been mentioned is 80 series Knuckle balls and berfilds are bigger then the mini truck,40 60, & 70 series stuff.
If I was building a race car I would go a different route.
In the end it’s what’s your budget can afford & what makes you happy.
Last edited:
To add, one thing that always gets left out (conveniently) when someone mentions this, is that the axle shafts are the same size through all of those series mentioned, not counting some minor spline count changes.
Upgrade to rcvs in any cruiser axle and they're always limited to the axle shaft size, because that becomes the weakest part.
Agree with upgrade/strengthen as far as you need for your use case.
Just the facts. Nothing convenient about it.
I would still rather have the bigger berfild even if it has the same size shafts.
Funny thing is, I see 40 & 60 series & mini truck guys putting 80 series stuff in all day long, but nobody is saying let’s swap some 40 or 60 stuff into much of anything.
Just saying
Cheers
They are uninformed or just want axle width, not the strength, lol. Not even bringing up the weakness of the 8" r&pFunny thing is, I see 40 & 60 series & mini truck guys putting 80 series stuff in all day long, but nobody is saying let’s swap some 40 or 60 stuff into much of anything.
Just saying
Not everyone needs the ultimate strength.They are uninformed or just want axle width, not the strength, lol. Not even bringing up the weakness of the 8" r&p
There’s a lot of other factors.
I think most want the coil spring ride.
And I know some want the addition ground clearance that a 8” R&P offers.
JH fab portal axles run Toyota 8” R&P for the ultimate ground clearance.
Having the gear reduction at the hubs they don’t need all the strength at the diff.
And they run 42s half filled with water.
So it's not all cut and dried lot of different ways to go for different reasons.
The only reason I mentioned the bigger berfild
Is post 47 picture # 2 show a destroyed mini truck berfild.
I’m no expert or engineer but I would guess that MrT upgraded the berfilds because they were the weakest link before the upgrade.
With the small stuff they probably still are.
Last edited:
And good night 
Richard, birf was broken during trail riding, I think Telico. Other was from the Badlands off road park during a race.
We can all sit here and bench build axles for XYZ vehicle, but it really comes down to a lot of factors that we still do not know. With less horsepower, gearing, etc things hold up better. Add horsepower and gearing, a doubler, extra low axle gears, lockers, high traction tires, things change.
West Coast wheeling can be a lot different than East Coast wheeling. Wheel speed plays into it as well. Dry rocks and dirt compared to red clay and rocks. I have been fortunate to have wheeled from coast to coast, even down in Ocala, FL. I have seen all types of terrain, broken all types of parts. I am at the point, I do not like to work on my rig while wheeling, in camp, etc. I try to make sure I have the right stuff to begin with.
We can all sit here and bench build axles for XYZ vehicle, but it really comes down to a lot of factors that we still do not know. With less horsepower, gearing, etc things hold up better. Add horsepower and gearing, a doubler, extra low axle gears, lockers, high traction tires, things change.
West Coast wheeling can be a lot different than East Coast wheeling. Wheel speed plays into it as well. Dry rocks and dirt compared to red clay and rocks. I have been fortunate to have wheeled from coast to coast, even down in Ocala, FL. I have seen all types of terrain, broken all types of parts. I am at the point, I do not like to work on my rig while wheeling, in camp, etc. I try to make sure I have the right stuff to begin with.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2014
- Threads
- 42
- Messages
- 1,292
I have built a lot of crawlers over the years. The last time I built anything I would call a crawler with a toyota diff was around 2011 because I have broken far too many toyota ring gears. That is also about the time I gave up on leaf springs, which are a lot more forgiving on axle parts than links are.
I currently have 2 trucks with 80 axles on 37's. Neither are crawlers IMO, but they see far more abuse than 99% of US 80's do. One has a stock housing and slee high steer, the other has a 9.5 diamond housing with a 200 series diff and hellfire knuckles. Both have all ARP hardware and RCV's. I would consider 37's to be the biggest tire I can reliably run for what I do, where I do it and how much I feel like working on my rig when i'm on vacation. Even 37's are pushing it on a truck with an 8" front in my opinion.
The SD d60 front is a great axle and cheap. There is just about always a pair for sale for 1k around here. The biggest thing to consider to me is that the best 8" 80 axle built with the best of the best aftermarket parts is around $7k and is still weaker than a stock SD d60. If you are starting fresh and don't have axles yet, the SD d60 is the best choice for 37"+ tires. If you don't ever want to go above 37's, toyota axles are great and something like half the weight of super duty axles.
Both of the wheelers I have now I built the way I did because I wanted to keep them all toyota. Neither are trailer queens and they frequently see several thousand mile trips that involve hard wheeling and hours of interstate driving. Bigger tires and heavier axles drive and ride much worse at highway speeds. Everything is a compromise.
I currently have 2 trucks with 80 axles on 37's. Neither are crawlers IMO, but they see far more abuse than 99% of US 80's do. One has a stock housing and slee high steer, the other has a 9.5 diamond housing with a 200 series diff and hellfire knuckles. Both have all ARP hardware and RCV's. I would consider 37's to be the biggest tire I can reliably run for what I do, where I do it and how much I feel like working on my rig when i'm on vacation. Even 37's are pushing it on a truck with an 8" front in my opinion.
The SD d60 front is a great axle and cheap. There is just about always a pair for sale for 1k around here. The biggest thing to consider to me is that the best 8" 80 axle built with the best of the best aftermarket parts is around $7k and is still weaker than a stock SD d60. If you are starting fresh and don't have axles yet, the SD d60 is the best choice for 37"+ tires. If you don't ever want to go above 37's, toyota axles are great and something like half the weight of super duty axles.
Both of the wheelers I have now I built the way I did because I wanted to keep them all toyota. Neither are trailer queens and they frequently see several thousand mile trips that involve hard wheeling and hours of interstate driving. Bigger tires and heavier axles drive and ride much worse at highway speeds. Everything is a compromise.
For sure the 80 axle is not the best or strongest axle. Wasn't trying to insinuate that.
All I was saying is it can and does work for some folks.
Just for fun
All I was saying is it can and does work for some folks.
Just for fun
The 80 front axle is not a good axle swap candidate unless you're putting it under a mildly built 40 or 60, or want to do a cheap radius arm coil suspension. 80 rear axle, different story, that's a great unit for any cruiser up to about 40", but at that point even chromo axles start breaking.
A widened 60 series axle would be better IMHO, because the axle shafts are the same as everything else, the 60/40/70 chromo axle/birf set is close to as strong as a stock dana 60 setup, and you get a 9.5" diff, which is much stronger. There used to be a good strain chart showing the comparison, but I can't find it right now.
It's like the 80 steering box. People used to say the 60 box was way stronger than the 80 box because the 60 box never breaks the sector shaft. Turns out, the sector shaft in the 60 and 80 box are the same, to the point you can run 60 pitman arms on 80 boxes, or 80 pitman arms on 60 boxes. The difference is that the 80 power steering box has a larger power piston in it, resulting with more assist power, but just enough more that you can twist the sector shaft. The 80 box is just as strong as the 60 box, but has more *power*, so it breaks itself more easily. The fix of course is a larger sector shaft in the form of a 105 sector shaft.
A widened 60 series axle would be better IMHO, because the axle shafts are the same as everything else, the 60/40/70 chromo axle/birf set is close to as strong as a stock dana 60 setup, and you get a 9.5" diff, which is much stronger. There used to be a good strain chart showing the comparison, but I can't find it right now.
It's like the 80 steering box. People used to say the 60 box was way stronger than the 80 box because the 60 box never breaks the sector shaft. Turns out, the sector shaft in the 60 and 80 box are the same, to the point you can run 60 pitman arms on 80 boxes, or 80 pitman arms on 60 boxes. The difference is that the 80 power steering box has a larger power piston in it, resulting with more assist power, but just enough more that you can twist the sector shaft. The 80 box is just as strong as the 60 box, but has more *power*, so it breaks itself more easily. The fix of course is a larger sector shaft in the form of a 105 sector shaft.
Fixed it for you
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2012
- Threads
- 637
- Messages
- 17,355
- Location
- Winter Park, Florida
- Website
- www.cruisermatts.com
Unrelated to main discussed but on the topic of 60 vs 80 steering boxes, a good point that @dr_dobro pointed out once was that the 80 steering box is mounted much farther forwards and angeld down like 30-degrees relative to where the box is on a 60, putting MUCH more side-loading on the sector shaft in a 80 vs just twisting