Axle swap considerations

[cruisermatt]

My opinion as someone that also puts a LOT of highway miles on my (heavy, higher HP) Cruiser to go wheeling is the biggest factor that is not quantifiable is driving style.. be honest how are you really going to drive it. Carefully or *Flamboyantly*. Answer that first and then it's just a quastion of how much you are willing to sacrifice ground clearance for strength. My opinion is that 37's aren't really big enough to justify the size andweight of 1-tons if you aren't driving it agresively. My FJ60/FJ80 combo has been very reliable for me with 37" tires once I put ARB lockers in.

I am actually seriously considering moving to an 80 front axle in my 62 despite the smaller front diff since I would like more clearance since I get hung up on my front diff often. I wheel with enough 80's and have seen the diffs survive enough that I am comfortable making the strength downgrade in that department..

Cost wise I would say it is a wash, just be really honest with your real end goal. Are you really going to drive a 40" tire rig thousands of road miles?

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I am actually seriously considering moving to an 80 front axle in my 62 despite the smaller front diff since I would like more clearance since I get hung up on my front diff often. I wheel with enough 80's and have seen the diffs survive enough that I am comfortable making the strength downgrade in that department..

You have a *lot* more power and gear reduction than an 80. An 8" front diff in your truck might survive with a numerically low gear ratio, but no chance with 4.88s or higher imo.

Drag the good diff you have over rocks, it's not a big deal, lol.

 

[matzell]

I have "dragged" a unshaved 14 Bolt and Dana 60 all over Johnson Valley on 37" tires racing KOH 5 times. As well as the other parts of the country. Learn to drive with them and it is not a problem. Add larger tires and it is better. The stablity of the width (I was at 67" wms) and the weight down below was awesome. Yes the first year I was on leaf springs and had one of my better races, 3 out of 5. Coil overs and links just made me faster in the desert.

Building from scatch, the cost are close to the same.

 

[cruisermatt]

You have a *lot* more power and gear reduction than an 80. An 8" front diff in your truck might survive with a numerically gear ratio, but no chance with 4.88s or higher imo.

Drag the good diff you have over rocks, it's not a big deal, lol.

Yeah I would be doing 4.11's since I have so much drivetrain gearing. That was my thought as well on the ratio

 

[Broski]

So if 40&60 chromo axles are all most as strong as a Dana 60 with the smaller berfild then the 80 Chromo axles with the bigger berfild and knuckles must be stronger than the smaller 40/60 stuff.

One could take the semi float rear axle housing from A 80 series and welded 80 knuckle balls to it and bolt the 9.5 diff in and be dam close to a Dana 60 but all Toyota.
You could run stock length 80 Chromo axles.
No more work than widening a 60 axle housing no custom axle shaft and bigger berfilds and knuckles.
It’s been done before and proven.
I see no reason to run the smaller 40 /60 series stuff.

A 9.5 diff is more of a center diff than a low diff so it would have better ground clearance over a Dana 60.

Again in the end it’s what you wallet can handle and what makes you happy.

I tried hard to stay out of the debate but just couldn’t help myself

I still say a 80 axle with a 8” diff can hold up to recreational Wheeling with up to 39” tires
And works dam well with stock radius, arms, and a small lift.
Lot of videos of my 80 to prove it.
They just plan work.
And why so many of them are being cut to go under 40 & 60 series rigs

Be my last post on the subject.

Cheers

 

[GLTHFJ60]

So if 40&60 chromo axles are all most as strong as a Dana 60 with the smaller berfild then the 80 Chromo axles with the bigger berfild and knuckles must be stronger than the smaller 40/60 stuff.

It's like I insulted your wife or something man, lay off it.

No, the 80 axle shafts are not stronger. They are the *same size* as the earlier ones. The size of the birfield bell does not make a lick of difference when the axle shaft snaps first.

If you want to build a custom Toyota parts axle housing out of the strongest s*** Toyota came up with, build one of these with 80 outers, if you can make broach the star gears to 36spline. It still will only be roughly as strong as a stock Dana 60 and cost way more.

toyota 10.5'' differential

I want to get out of some didactic doubts, I don't know how many generations there are or is it the same but the drought and tundra some come with a...

www.tundras.com

 

[archie73]

One could take the semi float rear axle housing from A 80 series and welded 80 knuckle balls to it and bolt the 9.5 diff in and be dam close to a Dana 60 but all Toyota.
You could run stock length 80 Chromo axles.
No more work than widening a 60 axle housing no custom axle shaft and bigger berfilds and knuckles.
It’s been done before and proven.
I see no reason to run the smaller 40 /60 series stuff.

A 9.5 diff is more of a center diff than a low diff so it would have better ground clearance over a Dana 60.

I have this floating around in my head as well. Unfortunately, it seems like a fairly expensive axle to build. There’s a really good thread that talks about how to make it happen. I imagine it was before the 80 spiked in popularity though.
You need the semi float housing, 80 series balls/knhckles/hubs/brakes and a 9.5 diff. So basically I need two axles to make one. If I lucked into the parts, I’d be game. Otherwise, I guess you could get a RuffStuff housing and work your way out from there…

Again in the end it’s what you wallet can handle and what makes you happy.

Yeah that’s the funny thing, they seem to be pretty similar price wise. AND they both have their own good attributes. Lighter/ground clearance vs commonality/strength.

 

[Broski]

I have this floating around in my head as well. Unfortunately, it seems like a fairly expensive axle to build. There’s a really good thread that talks about how to make it happen. I imagine it was before the 80 spiked in popularity though.
You need the semi float housing, 80 series balls/knhckles/hubs/brakes and a 9.5 diff. So basically I need two axles to make one. If I lucked into the parts, I’d be game. Otherwise, I guess you could get a RuffStuff housing and work your way out from there…

Yeah that’s the funny thing, they seem to be pretty similar price wise. AND they both have their own good attributes. Lighter/ground clearance vs commonality/strength.

The semi float can be had pretty cheep, and so can a bent front housing to harvest the knuckles from.
The Ruffstuff would be less work and would be a stronger housing

 

[archie73]

I appreciate everyone’s input on this. As mentioned, there’s just too many variables to say that there’s only one answer for every build. I didn’t think I’d get one unified opinion. I wanted to have a conversation about the merits of each.

We haven’t really dug into the really custom axles. The 609, 14 bolt variations, rear steer or the custom portal stuff. Thank you. I just felt that was too far a field to the everyday wheeler/driver. I wanted a guide to stuff that could be pulled from a parts vehicle.

I posted to this forum to stay out of the purist mindset. I do believe in the 9.5 based axles and feel they have a good place in a hardcore build. I also see the appeal of tons for all the obvious reasons- strength, parts availability…

For a LC based build I worry about parts availability possibly more than strength. Fact is parts availability are getting worse all the time. Small runs on hellfire knuckle and the like don’t portend well for future availability. Limited locker selection seems possible. The collector mentality doesn’t seem to help in this regard. It would be nice to have common parts on both trucks though.

Downside of tons is their bulk. They seem harder to package. That’s not to say it can’t be done, obviously it’s doable. Additionally, for my purposes, I will have to modify both axles. More work.

I have options and more importantly I have time. My build is a ways off. My hope is to create a conversation that would help others make an informed choice. I welcome more input and I’m sure there’s more to be discussed. Carry on…

 

[EWheeler]

The 99 through 04 super duty fronts; while the axle doesn't have as beefy of knuckles and as wide of spread between the ball joints on the C's, it can be ran with 6-lug wheels with mods to the unit bearing if that is important to you, whereas the 05+ cannot. They are slightly narrower than the 05+ axles @ ~69" WMS. Still a high pinion, still drivers side drop. Need to bore the unit bearings to be able to run 35 splines. High steer arms are possible, there is a guy in Washington that goes by MoFAB that machines these knuckles for high steer. https://www.instagram.com/mofab417/?hl=en

From another website, here is the consensus on these 99-04 axles versus the 05+:

The only reasons to run a 99-04 axle.
1. To run yukon lockouts (someone pointed out chromoly gears for 05+ lockouts Rcv makes but I have yet to hear about real world feedback)
2. To go to 5 or 6 lug outers can’t do that with 05+ stuff
3. You got it cheap and you can machine unit bearings yourself. Buy the time you buy unit bearings to run 35 spline shafts it’s more than an 05+ axle.

ETA #4. They are a little easier to clean up than 05+


LOTS of Tech here for the Ford front axles.

Bible - 99-04 Dana 60 & 50 Tech

I’m sure this thread won’t be nearly as popular as the 05+, but after some complaints in the other thread about muddling it with 99-04 discussion I figured at least start a small thread to consolidate info about these bastard child axles. If I quoted you or stole your info ...

irate4x4.com

Bible - '05+ Ford Super Duty Dana 60 Axle Tech & Info

I'd like this thread to become the '05+ axle bible for tech and info. Since this is the next big project on my FSB... nOOB question: What do I need in order to swap a complete brake set up from an F-350 onto an F-550 axle? The 05+ F450/550 axles are wider but according to the below...

irate4x4.com

 

[yOHda]

I think I bought the first or second ruffstuff 9.5 front when they first came out years ago. Loved that axle and it was expensive to build and the entire time I worried about it on 37” PB Rockers. I didn’t too much worry about the rear.

Slowly building a new truck now.

I have the same amount of money in both complete superduty axles as I did in just the ruffstuff housing alone. 4 cyl diesel and nv4500. Building a small truck with big parts for 40” tires. Plan is to slightly overbuild for piece of mind. We’ll see if my plan works.

The IS next to it was getting a vvti 1uz at the same time. Fun basic car.

 

[Ditcherman]

I think I bought the first or second ruffstuff 9.5 front when they first came out years ago. Loved that axle and it was expensive to build and the entire time I worried about it on 37” PB Rockers. I didn’t too much worry about the rear.

View attachment 4024647

Slowly building a new truck now.

I have the same amount of money in both complete superduty axles as I did in just the ruffstuff housing alone. 4 cyl diesel and nv4500. Building a small truck with big parts for 40” tires. Plan is to slightly overbuild for piece of mind. We’ll see if my plan works.

The IS next to it was getting a vvti 1uz at the same time. Fun basic car.

Maybe not just for you but for all, but since you brought it up….
Does a front SD axle offer as much articulation in original radius arm setup as a three link?
Do people typically strip them down to three link them or just go with radius arms?

 

[yOHda]

Maybe not just for you but for all, but since you brought it up….
Does a front SD axle offer as much articulation in original radius arm setup as a three link?
Do people typically strip them down to three link them or just go with radius arms?

Wfo I’ve seen sells a lot of radius arm kits. Swap kits for Chevy as well as 3rd gen Tacoma/4runner platforms.

As to how well they work, I’m not the authority on that. They will not flex nor handle like a 3 link. I do know that. Too much bind. Even with the wfo I see guys unbolt the top link on the passenger side. Similar to guys doing “wristed” setups or removable pins on broncos and other trucks with radius arms 20 plus years ago.

I am in the air on going 3 link or building a radius arm setup under my 40. I don’t care about maximum articulation, but I also don’t want to do all that work for subpar performance.

 

[yOHda]

That truck above. 9.5 ruffstuff front. 80 rear:

 

[peacesells63]

My opinion is that 37's aren't really big enough to justify the size andweight of 1-tons if you aren't driving it agresively. My FJ60/FJ80 combo has been very reliable for me with 37" tires once I put ARB lockers in.

Agreed, that is an absolute minimum tire size for tons unless you are building an offroad motorhome or something that weighs 10k lbs. Arb's definitely make the 8" diff much stronger since the ring gear is much better supported than oem elockers. Thats all I run in toyota 3rds.

 

[peacesells63]

A high pinion 8" front is not terribly far off from an 80 series or earlier 9.5" in strength when used in a front axle and driving forward, since you are diving on the coast side of the ring gear. High pinions break easily when bound up in reverse but they are impressively strong when moving forward.

When I built my 9.5 front with 80 outers, I went with a 200 series 3rd with 4.88's, ARB, and rcv's that are 32 spline at the diff. They do neck down to 30 spline at the birf, but they should be less likely to twist splines at the diff. The main reason for the 200 series 3rd is that the ring gear is about twice as thick as the earlier ones and the pinion is massive by comparison. This truck has a supercharged/intercooled 2uz.

Not sure who this picture came from, but here is a 200 series pinion compared to an 80 series. Pinions don't break from power input, but they do when you smack them on a rock hard enough.

 

[Broski]

A high pinion 8" front is not terribly far off from an 80 series or earlier 9.5" in strength when used in a front axle and driving forward, since you are diving on the coast side of the ring gear. High pinions break easily when bound up in reverse but they are impressively strong when moving forward.

^^^ This, one needs to be very careful in reverse

 

[cruisermatt]

For a LC based build I worry about parts availability possibly more than strength. Fact is parts availability are getting worse all the time. Small runs on hellfire knuckle and the like don’t portend well for future availability. Limited locker selection seems possible. The collector mentality doesn’t seem to help in this regard. It would be nice to have common parts on both trucks though.

I wouldn't say this is a realistic concern. Once you buy RCV's and knuckles or high steer, those parts are basically lifetime parts. your only real wear parts are going to be bearings/brakes/spindles and maybe locking hubs which are all common service parts. Locking hubs are getting sort of expensinve but there are still millions of them out there. Less and less guys are really wheeling Land Cruisers so it's not like used parts are getting burned up like crazy.

 

[Firemedic831]

I have 10.5 FF 36 spline Ruffstuff housing . I have 9 inch Diamond housing FF and i have 609 Currie Built ( basically a Diamond housing with 1Ton Outers ) 35 spline . I run 40s but will most likely go to 42s for my next set . the 609 i feel gives the best of the benefits . Strength ,Clearance , Weight . up front i Also have a 609 with a High pinion diff . I will at some point go to RCV shafts Just for piece of mind .

 

[White Stripe]

I have 10.5 FF 36 spline Ruffstuff housing . I have 9 inch Diamond housing FF and i have 609 Currie Built ( basically a Diamond housing with 1Ton Outers ) 35 spline . I run 40s but will most likely go to 42s for my next set . the 609 i feel gives the best of the benefits . Strength ,Clearance , Weight . up front i Also have a 609 with a High pinion diff . I will at some point go to RCV shafts Just for piece of mind .

I think the 9" is the best way to go if you have the budget and or time to piece them together.