I’m not sure that I would do tons again. I really like my setup and it is an impressive machine, but I’ll probably never get close to maximizing the strength with my driving style.
Axle swap considerations
- Thread starter archie73
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When you are out in the middle of no where, you do not have to worry about breaking the driveline, for the most part. I think 35-37 range is good for Toyota axles. I am not sure you need more than 35's on a 40? With the right set up of gearing, steering, one can do a lot with one on 35's even sprung under.
do I sense some jealousy?
- Thread starter
- #24
As much as I want to stay on topic of pluses/minuses of various junkyard axles and combos. I will digress and say that the next rig has a wheelbase of ~115”. That in itself satisfies one of my desires. I currently have a set of 37’s on 6x5.5 beadlocks. This will be my setup combos if I use axles that accommodate them. The next desire I have is wider axles. Just not 72”. Im not afraid to shorten a set of SD axles, more I’m worried about the time suck of that particular project. Also, I’m not positive I’ll ever need/want 40’s, but I’d like to have the ability to use them in the future.
That means in the long run (for me personally) LC axles check a lot of boxes. They to have their drawbacks. I know I’m not the only person debating this subject, so I’m glad to have all these responses.
@Mike Shull what were the pitfalls/hurdles to the one tone swap? I assume Packaging was tough, but maybe I’m over thinking it…
@Broski if you were starting from a blank slate would you do 80 stuff again?
@matzell- I seem to recall you have lc axles in the STW, but not the race truck? You seem to have a unique viewpoint having both.
I've been stuck in 40 series purgatory and mental masturbation builds for many years of working & living on the road. In hindsight, I wish I had seen the light of the 80 series platform many years ago. 80 series gives you the wheelbase & axle width that you want. Room for the fam & dog(s) if you got them. AC. Axles under it that will do what you ask of them. You live in a free state, so a GM V8 swap solves the power issue if you so desire. GM V8 & auto allow room for a blackbox without getting into the fuel tank if you really want low gears for crawling beyond diff gearing and the available t-case gears. I've seen Richard's truck boogie in the bumps around Sand Hollow and he looked more comfortable than I felt in my tube chassis crawler that has raced in KOH a couple times in a past life. I'm going to sound like I'm swinging from Richards TruckNutz in this thread, because I am. I think he has built an absolutely bitchin truck without going overboard.
I think a bitchin upgrade to the 80 series would be a High Pinion front 60/9. You'd gain diff/axle strength and more steering angle. Probably have to go a little wider than stock width to be able to use all the steering depending on tire size, articulation and acceptable clearancing.
He has a 40 series ultra 4 truck he raced out west for a number of years, I'd listen to him. My viewpoints are the same as his, so I won't be too wordy.
If your truck has an engine that makes some power, and wheel hard s***, then 37s are the limit for Toyota axles. Inner axles are small, then r&p in higher ratios (numerically) have teeth that are too thin, then the housings are stamped steel welded together and will bend/warp. You could go fully fabbed toy housings, or just go to a real axle from the get go.
Yes he does and I agree with what he says, usually. My humor backfired this time.
I don’t agree with his assessment on tire size, though he may be talking about trails rated up to 7 out of 10. In my opinion, 35-37 are no longer the optimal tire size for an 8-9 rated trail. My Cruiser had 35’s for 20 years and it did great on these trails up until the last 5-7 years (2015-2020). With the rain, floods and over usage of trails, 35’s are no longer suitable for these trails. They work though I found myself wrecking the trails even more trying to run the lines that folks on 54” tires attempted the day before, and you know that I like to tread lightly. The problem is that the average tire size has gotten really big and there are a few folks out there ripping up the landscape with them. I don’t need 40” tires, but it sure helps and I wanted to select a tire size that would last another 20 years. These 40s will be the 31s of 1980, the 33s of 1990 and the 35s of 2000. That said, my next build will be for 1-7 rated trails and, though I haven’t selected the tire size yet, I had thought that I would do 31-33” tires. I may go larger after getting back out there and seeing the trail conditions in CO, but I may also just stick with my current Cruiser for awhile. It sure is fun to drive no matter what the trail rating is.
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I ran stock LC axles up until 2021, and with a SBC and 35s for 20 years. I never broke an axle, and my Cruiser has done Pritchett Canyon several times. The rear diff pinion bearing went out and the front birfields started clicking in the first 15 years of it’s life and at 190k on stock 235/75r15 tires, but otherwise the axles only needed routine maintenance for the first 40 years. Given this, the stock stuff is pretty strong.
As Rob mentioned, I didn’t want to be out in the desert risking it, which is why I decided to go with the 1-ton setup. It was a little tricky to stuff the axles under there and try to make it look somewhat like a Cruiser, but it was not too big of a deal. The weight is another big factor and I would highly consider Toyota stuff if I were building something that gets better fuel mileage.
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I think the two factors for axles would be:
1. Engine HP and Torque
2. Tire size.
One can run a 4cyl mini truck with multiple cases and built toy axles and run 40's.
Add weight with a heavy truck things change.
Add HP and things get weaker.
Add larger tires and things get weaker.
Now you have added wheelbase ~115" is longer than an 80. You may have noticed, I added tire size when I added wheel base. (104"). I wheeled my 80 in Moab this past April on 35's. It did fine but I did not do hard trails. It is fully locked, geared and has RCV's. I would want more tire to do harder stuff. Hells was about as hard as we did.
Years ago when I put tons under my 4Runner, it was a game changer. I ran 37's first then 39 stickies. At a point it takes all the fun out of wheeling. It was brought up that running 7-10 level trails you need larger tires. When I built my STW I wanted something that would challenge me. Make me drive and pick lines. In my Racecar on 40" stickies, I can almost point and shoot. I think you need to ask yourself, Do you build something that will challenge you on 90% of the trails out there, or be bored on the basic trail and do 10% extreme trails.
If I can remember your build thoughts this is what I am gathering. Please let me know if I missed something.
40 based body
stockish 5.3 engine 300 hp
wheel base of 115"
Not too wide so it still looks like a 40
Good Road manors
reliable
My thoughts:
3 link front
4 link rear
No more than 12" travel shocks coilovers
80 axles RCV's, 4:88's, Chromoly rear and ARP everywhere (See Richards build
)
37" tires
OR
Tons and 40's with everything else the same
I do not plan to go larger than 35's on my Toyota axles nor do I plan to put my extra 6.0 LS in it UNLESS I put my set of tons under it and then it would go larger in tires and suspension. I like that the little tbi 350 makes enough HP, but not too much. I think the current drive train will hold up to most of my wheeling. Stock rear but have RCV's in the front axle.
As I am getting older, my 40 is easier to get in and out of compared to my race car. I plan to keep it for a long time. If I sold my race car, I may go larger in the 40, but it goes everywhere I want it to at the moment. I ran some hard trails last weekend, ended up on a RED for a short time but did not winch all weekend, two days of wheeling at the Cove. Most guys in my group where on 37's.
1. Engine HP and Torque
2. Tire size.
One can run a 4cyl mini truck with multiple cases and built toy axles and run 40's.
Add weight with a heavy truck things change.
Add HP and things get weaker.
Add larger tires and things get weaker.
Now you have added wheelbase ~115" is longer than an 80. You may have noticed, I added tire size when I added wheel base. (104"). I wheeled my 80 in Moab this past April on 35's. It did fine but I did not do hard trails. It is fully locked, geared and has RCV's. I would want more tire to do harder stuff. Hells was about as hard as we did.
Years ago when I put tons under my 4Runner, it was a game changer. I ran 37's first then 39 stickies. At a point it takes all the fun out of wheeling. It was brought up that running 7-10 level trails you need larger tires. When I built my STW I wanted something that would challenge me. Make me drive and pick lines. In my Racecar on 40" stickies, I can almost point and shoot. I think you need to ask yourself, Do you build something that will challenge you on 90% of the trails out there, or be bored on the basic trail and do 10% extreme trails.
If I can remember your build thoughts this is what I am gathering. Please let me know if I missed something.
40 based body
stockish 5.3 engine 300 hp
wheel base of 115"
Not too wide so it still looks like a 40
Good Road manors
reliable
My thoughts:
3 link front
4 link rear
No more than 12" travel shocks coilovers
80 axles RCV's, 4:88's, Chromoly rear and ARP everywhere (See Richards build
)37" tires
OR
Tons and 40's with everything else the same
I do not plan to go larger than 35's on my Toyota axles nor do I plan to put my extra 6.0 LS in it UNLESS I put my set of tons under it and then it would go larger in tires and suspension. I like that the little tbi 350 makes enough HP, but not too much. I think the current drive train will hold up to most of my wheeling. Stock rear but have RCV's in the front axle.
As I am getting older, my 40 is easier to get in and out of compared to my race car. I plan to keep it for a long time. If I sold my race car, I may go larger in the 40, but it goes everywhere I want it to at the moment. I ran some hard trails last weekend, ended up on a RED for a short time but did not winch all weekend, two days of wheeling at the Cove. Most guys in my group where on 37's.
- Thread starter
- #30
I’m not complaining about the stock 4x strength at all. I upgraded to Longfields when I locked the front. I don’t fear for them when I head to the dessert. My only issue with the stock axles on the next build is the width. I want more.
Your combo is why I ask about the packaging. I’m very happy with my LS and will likely put another one in this project. I also want to try my hand at linking a vehicle, so your build comes to mind in terms of tons.
You bring up an interesting point about the mileage vs weight. Like I said, this will likely see more highway than trail. My current 40 with the LS/SM465/ 4.11/35’s gets 15-18mpg cruising (60mph) around our valley. This makes it palatable to use as a daily in the summer. If I want to enjoy the next build off the trail, I should consider the weight of the axles. 37-40” tires aren’t going to help either…
Here is the Robapedia that I knew was in there. I 100% agree with this.I think the two factors for axles would be:
1. Engine HP and Torque
2. Tire size.
One can run a 4cyl mini truck with multiple cases and built toy axles and run 40's.
Add weight with a heavy truck things change.
Add HP and things get weaker.
Add larger tires and things get weaker.
Now you have added wheelbase ~115" is longer than an 80. You may have noticed, I added tire size when I added wheel base. (104"). I wheeled my 80 in Moab this past April on 35's. It did fine but I did not do hard trails. It is fully locked, geared and has RCV's. I would want more tire to do harder stuff. Hells was about as hard as we did.
Years ago when I put tons under my 4Runner, it was a game changer. I ran 37's first then 39 stickies. At a point it takes all the fun out of wheeling. It was brought up that running 7-10 level trails you need larger tires. When I built my STW I wanted something that would challenge me. Make me drive and pick lines. In my Racecar on 40" stickies, I can almost point and shoot. I think you need to ask yourself, Do you build something that will challenge you on 90% of the trails out there, or be bored on the basic trail and do 10% extreme trails.
If I can remember your build thoughts this is what I am gathering. Please let me know if I missed something.
40 based body
stockish 5.3 engine 300 hp
wheel base of 115"
Not too wide so it still looks like a 40
Good Road manors
reliable
My thoughts:
3 link front
4 link rear
No more than 12" travel shocks coilovers
80 axles RCV's, 4:88's, Chromoly rear and ARP everywhere (See Richards build
37" tires
OR
Tons and 40's with everything else the same
I do not plan to go larger than 35's on my Toyota axles nor do I plan to put my extra 6.0 LS in it UNLESS I put my set of tons under it and then it would go larger in tires and suspension. I like that the little tbi 350 makes enough HP, but not too much. I think the current drive train will hold up to most of my wheeling. Stock rear but have RCV's in the front axle.
As I am getting older, my 40 is easier to get in and out of compared to my race car. I plan to keep it for a long time. If I sold my race car, I may go larger in the 40, but it goes everywhere I want it to at the moment. I ran some hard trails last weekend, ended up on a RED for a short time but did not winch all weekend, two days of wheeling at the Cove. Most guys in my group where on 37's.
Come to CO and let’s go for a drive. Packaging for me was tough because I was trying to work on the Cruiser during supply chain shortages and I didn’t have all of the pieces to mock everything into place. The frame horns on the front of a Cruiser are low, which made for packaging my gear a bit tricky, but the fenders were my big limiter. Everything seems roomy in there until you stuff a 40” tire into the space.
I have a 400hp 6.2l with 5:13 gears and I am averaging 12-13 mpg on the highway. I weigh 5700 lbs empty without the hard top. I weighed around 9500 pounds pulling my camper loaded across several mountain passes in CO this summer and I was happy with about 8-10 mpg. Despite all of the talk about 40” tires, I will eventually be getting a set of all terrain tires for this Cruiser as a second set for general mixed use and I may pick a slightly smaller tire to save some weight and rolling resistance. The next tire size for me will depend on keeping my rpm’s low enough to keep cruising speeds at a comfortable range.
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- Thread starter
- #33
I go to a work conference in sept/oct in GJ every couple years. We generally bring the mtbs and trucks to play around the conference. I’d love to check out your rig.
Makes sense, I have summer and winter tires for our true daily drivers. I may have to build an outbuilding just to house all these tires….
- Thread starter
- #34
I praise reliability over total horsepower and I’m currently vary happy with my stock tune ~300hp.
Tire size is where I seem to be in the cusp. Admittedly, I will likely be building around 37’s. Should I want to run 40s in the future I don’t want to worry about the axle strength.
Yes, I want it all…
This seems to be the build plan. Maybe I should start a go fund me…
To be or not to be, that is the question. This also affects the transfer case I run. So I guess I need to decide how big I’d go on tires.80 axles RCV's, 4:88's, Chromoly rear and ARP everywhere (See Richards build
37" tires
OR
Tons and 40's with everything else the same
This is the main reason I would go tons. Future me may want 40’s…
Yeah we are a 35-37 group. Last night there was light talk of 40’s…
Folks on 40’s and up come out when the others are sleeping.
*disclaimer: this was meant with kind and playful humor.
- Thread starter
- #36
When I started this thread I was hoping to get some broad guidance for the people peering into this rabbit hole. I was as hoping to gather information in a more general sense. I also realize that it’s hard to recommend any parts without certain information. I think my personal build plan, as of this writing, is kinda the generic build plan of the moment. I know I’m not breaking new ground here, but that’s why it makes a good template.
I’m looking into axles currently as prices seem to be dropping locally. 05 SD sets used to go for $2k and I’m seeing them for half that recently. FJ80 stuff isn’t nearly as common, but if I’m patient something will pop up.
Disclaimer- For me personally, I have time to gather parts as I find good deals. I have another project that needs to be mobile before I start on this one. I have a rolling chasis on ball n claw axles, but I likely won’t start on this for another 1-2 years. If I find a deal I’ll want to move in it.
I’m looking into axles currently as prices seem to be dropping locally. 05 SD sets used to go for $2k and I’m seeing them for half that recently. FJ80 stuff isn’t nearly as common, but if I’m patient something will pop up.
Disclaimer- For me personally, I have time to gather parts as I find good deals. I have another project that needs to be mobile before I start on this one. I have a rolling chasis on ball n claw axles, but I likely won’t start on this for another 1-2 years. If I find a deal I’ll want to move in it.
"Post ‘05 Dana 60- 72”, strong aftermarket, tight turning radius, expensive/problematic steering solutions."
Not sure I follow this. What is the problem with steering on these axles? High steer? There are numerous aftermarket high steer knuckles for these axles.
In my area, the Pacific NW, 05+ Superduty axles never sell over $1000. They are typically around $700, but $500 is common to see. The rear axles are actually more valuable than fronts for some reason. I have been actively trying NOT to buy them, but I still have a big collection of 05+ front axles and complete chassis when they pop up for too cheap locally. I'm a big fan of 70's Ford pickups. Superduty chassis work so very nice under the older trucks.
The 05+ Superduty D60's have significantly larger knuckles. The balljoints are spaced further apart from any other 1 ton axle ever made. That makes these axles extremely tough and the balljoints last a long time as they're under less stress. These axles use 35 spline inner and outer shafts, all the older D60 fronts used 30 spline outers. The stock Ford tie rod ends are very beefy on these axles.
The only downside to 05+ axles I'm aware of is the brakes are huge and will not fit inside many 17" aftermarket wheels. You need 18" plus in many cases to fit. The OEM used 17's, but aftermarket wide 17's are made different so some do not fit.
Something else that may or may not be worth taking into consideration, but the 2011+ Superduty steering boxes are magnificent creatures. These boxes will turn 37" tires with one finger on the wheel with a 1400 PSI pump under a 9000 lb truck. It's also interesting to note that Ford has used essentially the same 3 bolt steering box mount on their trucks for the past 45 years. Further notable that 2-5 year old used Superduty steering boxes sell on Ebay for a couple hundred bucks delivered.
Not sure I follow this. What is the problem with steering on these axles? High steer? There are numerous aftermarket high steer knuckles for these axles.
In my area, the Pacific NW, 05+ Superduty axles never sell over $1000. They are typically around $700, but $500 is common to see. The rear axles are actually more valuable than fronts for some reason. I have been actively trying NOT to buy them, but I still have a big collection of 05+ front axles and complete chassis when they pop up for too cheap locally. I'm a big fan of 70's Ford pickups. Superduty chassis work so very nice under the older trucks.
The 05+ Superduty D60's have significantly larger knuckles. The balljoints are spaced further apart from any other 1 ton axle ever made. That makes these axles extremely tough and the balljoints last a long time as they're under less stress. These axles use 35 spline inner and outer shafts, all the older D60 fronts used 30 spline outers. The stock Ford tie rod ends are very beefy on these axles.
The only downside to 05+ axles I'm aware of is the brakes are huge and will not fit inside many 17" aftermarket wheels. You need 18" plus in many cases to fit. The OEM used 17's, but aftermarket wide 17's are made different so some do not fit.
Something else that may or may not be worth taking into consideration, but the 2011+ Superduty steering boxes are magnificent creatures. These boxes will turn 37" tires with one finger on the wheel with a 1400 PSI pump under a 9000 lb truck. It's also interesting to note that Ford has used essentially the same 3 bolt steering box mount on their trucks for the past 45 years. Further notable that 2-5 year old used Superduty steering boxes sell on Ebay for a couple hundred bucks delivered.
- Thread starter
- #38
I’m aware there are solutions for these knuckles. My point in raising the cost factor is the machined knuckles and arms added cost. I also aware there are weld on solutions for double shear setups. For my own purposes I’m not comfortable with the weld on solutions for a highway vehicle; this stems from my own welding capabilities, not the design. For me if I went this axle route, I’d be getting the machined/keyed knuckles, just my comfort level that’s all.
Price will vary by location. Is that $700 for the pair? I wonder how much gas I’d burn getting those axles? Seattle?
My quote of $1k was for a set, but maybe I’m not looking hard enough yet. Doesn’t help that my area isn’t densely populated.
Yep. Totally agree
Another consideration for sure. Thank you
Once again, good to know. Forward facing or rear?
I misunderstood the price you stated. I thought you meant $1000 for just the front. $1000/pr is a great price.
The stock superduty pitman arm faces front.
Be prepared though, they are HUGE. I fit a '22 box in my old Ford Highboy with the original 34" wide leaf spring frame, 79 HP60 and a Cummins. I've got a 1/4" between box and timing cover.
But those 2011+ boxes are luxurious if you can fit it.
I make and sell Superduty steering pump upgrades. The Superduty guys are always asking me who makes the best aftermarket steering box. I tell them Ford does- Buy a newer box, drill out the holes in the frame for the bigger bolts and bolt it on.
The stock superduty pitman arm faces front.
Be prepared though, they are HUGE. I fit a '22 box in my old Ford Highboy with the original 34" wide leaf spring frame, 79 HP60 and a Cummins. I've got a 1/4" between box and timing cover.
But those 2011+ boxes are luxurious if you can fit it.
I make and sell Superduty steering pump upgrades. The Superduty guys are always asking me who makes the best aftermarket steering box. I tell them Ford does- Buy a newer box, drill out the holes in the frame for the bigger bolts and bolt it on.