Axle swap considerations

[matzell]

I think the 9" is the best way to go if you have the budget and or time to piece them together. View attachment 4025778

Unless you shell out for a HP 9", you still have a very low pinion on the 9". A HP D60 puts the pinion way up in the air, has a larger ring gear and lots of options for gears and lockers, maybe not as much as a 9" but a lot. You could also put in a Gearworks 10" HP in the front but that is $$$. The housing is a lot thicker and tubes are thicker as well on stock 60 vs 9" stuff. Fabricated 9" housing cures that. Unless one is building a moon buggy, the extra weight I do not feel is a downfall due to where it is, down low.

You can polish a turd but so much, and it is still a turd. Ask Justin @RustyNailJustin How much he has in his custom 9.5" LC axle with 80 outers and compare that to what it cost to build a locked 35 spline 60. I am sure it is not far off just in parts cost. I am sure Justin's axle is about as built and you can get using Toyota based parts.

With all the steering (Reid-Artec-PSC double ended ram with sweet valve, manual gear box, Branik-Willwood 14" 6 piston brakes, ARB, 5:38's, RCV 300M shafts, Drive slugs et) I am sure I am in the 10k range on my HP D60. But I never worry about it . Now that is on my race car. Overbuilt for a trail rig but not far off.

A lot of this will come down to cost and what someone can spend. Like it has been said buy once, cry once. More food for thought.

 

[Firemedic831]

9 inch center 60 outers high pinion 3rd

 

[matzell]

9 inch center 60 outers high pinion 3rd

View attachment 4025854

What kind of money do you have in parts in something like that? Also it is still ball joints. What year outers are those? Super Duty or pre-Super Duty.
31 or 35 spline stuff?

 

[Firemedic831]

What kind of money do you have in parts in something like that? Also it is still ball joints. What year outers are those? Super Duty or pre-Super Duty.
31 or 35 spline stuff?

35 spline. It’s all Currie built They are not SD. Yes it is Ball joint. Cost. I don’t really think of that stuff . But a rough idea is you can get a housing for around 1200. Then a 3rd is around 4000 with locker ect. Outer c and knuckles. Around 2500 Then shafts can range RCV are I think 3200 brakes and mic add another 800 . But what does it cost to take a vacation. . Drive somewhere then break . Then you are forced to fix what you already had. . I prefer to wrench in my garage at my convenience . My other 9 inch diamond will have Reid C and Knuckles and 1550 joints. 40 spline. And that will let me sleep with 42s

 

[matzell]

35 spline. It’s all Currie built They are not SD. Yes it is Ball joint. Cost. I don’t really think of that stuff . But a rough idea is you can get a housing for around 1200. Then a 3rd is around 4000 with locker ect. Outer c and knuckles. Around 2500 Then shafts can range RCV are I think 3200 brakes and mic add another 800 . But what does it cost to take a vacation. . Drive somewhere then break . Then you are forced to fix what you already had. . I prefer to wrench in my garage at my convenience . My other 9 inch diamond will have Reid C and Knuckles and 1550 joints. 40 spline. And that will let me sleep with 42s

You and I think the same on stuff like this. I still have a set of narrowed tons, 60-14 that are geared and locked waiting to go in my 40, if I decide to play in "stupid" stuff again or go bigger on tires.

 

[Firemedic831]

In the end no matter what you build it all ends up coasting close to the same . Sure you can get a set of SD axles on marketplace for 1500. But then what . You still need to tear them apart and rebuild with gears and locker. Then factor in your time to cut and grind all the old mounts off . In the end it will still cost you around 5-6 k I personally like fabricated housing as they are a clean slate can make to my specs. And easy to add mounts to . To build a rig now is a minimum of 40 k that’s just in basic parts . Double that if you have to pay labor . The only down side to running a SD axle is it is a fixed width. On certain rigs the full width looks good. I personally did not like how the front on my 40 looked. It was to wide and a pain to fit on a trailer . Plus I could not fit on the Barrett lake trail . My Tacoma is 67. And I love it. I cruised through Barrett and never even spun a tire and that was taking all the hard lines . Also Toyota stuff is 6 inch for steering and the 1 ton stuff is 8 inch so you have a tighter turning radius. Going forward I will always be 1 ton stuff No matter what I build . Wait I stand corrected I do have a set of 40 axles that are going under a kid size mini buggy

 

[archie73]

In the end no matter what you build it all ends up coasting close to the same .

Yeah my quick calcs are pretty close.

In the end it will still cost you around 5-6 k I personally like fabricated housing as they are a clean slate can make to my specs.

I was “hoping” to beat that number with the axles. Time will tell.

The only down side to running a SD axle is it is a fixed width. On certain rigs the full width looks good. I personally did not like how the front on my 40 looked. It was to wide and a pain to fit on a trailer . Plus I could not fit on the Barrett lake trail . My Tacoma is 67. And I love it.

This all the way. This is the main reason I have any inclination toward 9.5 starting point- the width. SD will have to be shortened for sure.
I’m still researching an aftermarket 9.5 housing. It definitely has some appeal. Maybe.

Also Toyota stuff is 6 inch for steering and the 1 ton stuff is 8 inch so you have a tighter turning radius.

I assume this is the ram length?

 

[Firemedic831]

Yeah my quick calcs are pretty close.


I was “hoping” to beat that number with the axles. Time will tell.


This all the way. This is the main reason I have any inclination toward 9.5 starting point- the width. SD will have to be shortened for sure.
I’m still researching an aftermarket 9.5 housing. It definitely has some appeal. Maybe.

I assume this is the ram length?

yes the ram.

 

[archie73]

You and I think the same on stuff like this. I still have a set of narrowed tons, 60-14 that are geared and locked waiting to go in my 40, if I decide to play in "stupid" stuff again or go bigger on tires.

I missed out on a set of 67" 60/14 axles for $2800 recently. My dilemma was that the 60 was older (90’s?). I don’t think I "need" the 05 SD beef for my style of driving, but if I’m going to go big- might as well go all the way. Plus there’s the turning radius.

My other issue was the unknown factor of someone else doing the narrowing. I’m by no means an expert, but I’d rather do the job myself and know how it was done. This does bring in the cost of alignment bars/pucks. I don’t have access to a lathe, so I’d have buy those pieces.

 

[PIP]

I missed out on a set of 67" 60/14 axles for $2800 recently. My dilemma was that the 60 was older (90’s?). I don’t think I "need" the 05 SD beef for my style of driving, but if I’m going to go big- might as well go all the way. Plus there’s the turning radius.

My other issue was the unknown factor of someone else doing the narrowing. I’m by no means an expert, but I’d rather do the job myself and know how it was done. This does bring in the cost of alignment bars/pucks. I don’t have access to a lathe, so I’d have buy those pieces.

The 05+ SD axles turn tighter than Ford leaf sprung axles of the 80's/90's simply because there's no leaf spring for the tire to hit. If you're not running leafs and you turn the stops in, they turn as tight as you want.

I have a 79HP 60 under my leaf sprung Highboy. It turns every bit as tight as a new coil axle does. Just because the leaf springs are 6" narrower is all.

 

[archie73]

The 05+ SD axles turn tighter than Ford leaf sprung axles of the 80's/90's simply because there's no leaf spring for the tire to hit. If you're not running leafs and you turn the stops in, they turn as tight as you want.

I have a 79HP 60 under my leaf sprung Highboy. It turns every bit as tight as a new coil axle does. Just because the leaf springs are 6" narrower is all.

That’s good to know. I was under the impression that the larger u joint was the reason for the increased steering angle. You learn something new everyday.

So the advantage of the 05 more comes down to the knuckle size? Maybe this changes things in my mind, maybe not…

 

[matzell]

That’s good to know. I was under the impression that the larger u joint was the reason for the increased steering angle. You learn something new everyday.

So the advantage of the 05 more comes down to the knuckle size? Maybe this changes things in my mind, maybe not…

You can also get ball joint elimators to cure that. Or just keep an eye on them. I prefer Kingpin stuff. Just be sure not to get a Dana 61.

 

[matzell]

Info to read

BillaVista.com-Dana 60 Front Axle Bible Tech Article by BillaVista

Bible - '05+ Ford Super Duty Dana 60 Axle Tech & Info

I'd like this thread to become the '05+ axle bible for tech and info. Since this is the next big project on my FSB... nOOB question: What do I need in order to swap a complete brake set up from an F-350 onto an F-550 axle? The 05+ F450/550 axles are wider but according to the below...

irate4x4.com

Between the two of these, you should know almost everything about the Dana 60 front axle.

Both of these are long reads....

 

[PIP]

That’s good to know. I was under the impression that the larger u joint was the reason for the increased steering angle. You learn something new everyday.

So the advantage of the 05 more comes down to the knuckle size? Maybe this changes things in my mind, maybe not…

The 05+ axles are kinda just better all around. Not much more money than the early stuff either.

The loggers around me abuse Superduties worse than most.

Even my most diehard Chevy fan diesel shop owning close friend will freely admit the 05+ Ford chassis is vastly superior to anything else out there under harsh conditions. You almost can't kill it.

I put a 2008 F350 chassis under an early Ford crewcab. It had 170K miles on it as an offroad water tanker with a 1000 gallon tank. The top of the frame rails where the watertank skids were bolted were wore 1/2 way through the top frame flanges. It had seen some stuff. Most of the suspension parts were original and still in good shape. Didn't really need anything, though it all got replaced.

 

[Broski]

The Dana super 60 is a great axle.
The control arm mounts are hard to work around and it’s a massive axle.
Before I got into Land Cruisers in former life as a Surfer I had built 4 full size Ford 4x4 Vans
They were never offered from the factory as a 4x4.
All but one got a Dana super 60 axle.

The sure size of them makes them seem out of place under a Land Cruiser and a challenge to package IMO.

 

[archie73]

The Dana super 60 is a great axle.
The control arm mounts are hard to work around and it’s a massive axle.
Before I got into Land Cruisers in former life as a Surfer I had built 4 full size Ford 4x4 Vans
They were never offered from the factory as a 4x4.
All but one got a Dana super 60 axle.

The sure size of them makes them seem out of place under a Land Cruiser and a challenge to package IMO.

It will be a ton of work for sure. For my needs I’d have to narrow it as well. It’s been done before and can be done again.

The lc stuff seems easier to package though. This is the main question in my head- Ease of packaging vs ultimate strength. I’m constantly wavering back and forth. I started the thread after seeing someone else looking into this rabbit hole and I thought I’d probe the brain trust.

Info to read

BillaVista.com-Dana 60 Front Axle Bible Tech Article by BillaVista

Bible - '05+ Ford Super Duty Dana 60 Axle Tech & Info

I'd like this thread to become the '05+ axle bible for tech and info. Since this is the next big project on my FSB... nOOB question: What do I need in order to swap a complete brake set up from an F-350 onto an F-550 axle? The 05+ F450/550 axles are wider but according to the below...

irate4x4.com

Between the two of these, you should know almost everything about the Dana 60 front axle.

Both of these are long reads....

I’m working my way through the Bible and I will move onto the billavista one next. Thanks for dropping the links here.

 

[archie73]

It will be a ton of work for sure. For my needs I’d have to narrow it as well. It’s been done before and can be done again.

The lc stuff seems easier to package though. This is the main question in my head- Ease of packaging vs ultimate strength. I’m constantly wavering back and forth. I started the thread after seeing someone else looking into this rabbit hole and I thought I’d probe the brain trust.

I should add that I’m not sure I’ll ever need the strength of tons. I have a 5.3 turning 35’s. The LS is basically stock and it fits my needs perfectly. The next truck will see 37’s, but I’m not looking to go crazy on HP beyond what it’ll take to motivate the new tire size. This is where I think of the weight of the tons vs 9.5. Tons naturally need more beef in terms of suspension parts, which adds to the overall weight of the rig. This begets a more powerful drivetrain. UNLESS I go to 40’s, that’s where the tons start making sense to me.

Add to that, I’m not what I’d call an aggressive driver. I just want to keep up with the 4door jk in front of me. Add to that, I figure this build will take me 3-5 years (once I start it), so I’ll be closer to 60 by then. I’m told I will naturally start getting less aggressive at some point after that point. Will I want 40’s by then? Hard to say…

I don’t know, I’m just musing at this point. I checked Copart today for “cheap” fj80 donors today. I also scanned marketplace for tons. There’s options…

 

[matzell]

I should add that I’m not sure I’ll ever need the strength of tons. I have a 5.3 turning 35’s. The LS is basically stock and it fits my needs perfectly. The next truck will see 37’s, but I’m not looking to go crazy on HP beyond what it’ll take to motivate the new tire size. This is where I think of the weight of the tons vs 9.5. Tons naturally need more beef in terms of suspension parts, which adds to the overall weight of the rig. This begets a more powerful drivetrain. UNLESS I go to 40’s, that’s where the tons start making sense to me.

Add to that, I’m not what I’d call an aggressive driver. I just want to keep up with the 4door jk in front of me. Add to that, I figure this build will take me 3-5 years (once I start it), so I’ll be closer to 60 by then. I’m told I will naturally start getting less aggressive at some point after that point. Will I want 40’s by then? Hard to say…

I don’t know, I’m just musing at this point. I checked Copart today for “cheap” fj80 donors today. I also scanned marketplace for tons. There’s options…

Ha, at 60 you may not want to climb up or jump out. I jumped out of my race car last fall and bruised my heal bone, tore a few ligaments and wore a boot for months. Now I think about that more and more. My 40 on 35's fits the bill a lot better to get in and out of. Now coils or coilovers are on my mind for a softer ride!

 

[Broski]

Ha, at 60 you may not want to climb up or jump out. I jumped out of my race car last fall and bruised my heal bone, tore a few ligaments and wore a boot for months. Now I think about that more and more. My 40 on 35's fits the bill a lot better to get in and out of. Now coils or coilovers are on my mind for a softer ride!

66 and still going strong!
The old saying applies use it or lose it.

 

[archie73]

65 and still going strong!
The old saying applies use it or lose it.

I think my 40 does pretty well on leafs, but I’m anxious to see how coils treat me.