Advice on 1997 FZJ75 LHD Registration in Kalif

[WarDamnEagle]

Hi Hondu. Just yesterday I had a look at a 91 model 75 in the very hot sun, so hot that I could not climb under it but I stuck my phone under it and took some videos, including one under the left side from the drivers perspective front wheelwell and saw this:


Apologies for the quality of the screengrab--the rest of the numbers are there. When you say it is a no numbers truck, I just didn't understand. Not criticizing or anything, just was hoping you could clarify. I should hasten to add that my 2001 rust bucket late night beer-induced ebay mistake (which we somewhat affectionately named 'Crusty' is so rusty that the frame number probably can't be read.

The frame number is on the passenger side either in front of or behind the front tire, depending on land cruiser model. They may be in multiple places but this location is always easy to see.

Here’s a pic from my 1994 FZJ75. It’s behind the tire between the exhaust pipe and the shock tower. Should be one in the same location on that 1991.

 

[Reinhardtius]

I think this is an informative thread. But it’s a shame it is just being used to flame the 75 series in question. That is a niche truck and should be purchased by someone who appreciates it for what it is. The truck has a title and - outside California - probably won’t give you any issues at your state’s registration office. There is a reason why this truck is so rare in the US and that is what drives the price. If someone doesn’t understand that and cannot afford the risks then this isn’t the truck for them. But all those convos can be bad by contacting the seller by phone. I suspect that if anyone is actually serious about buying the truck that conversation is being had in that manner and not on the public forum.

We are all enthusiasts. Just enjoy the fact that this truck is in the US.

We would not be “flaming” the truck if the seller were factual about its legality.

No. I didn’t import it. I don’t have the records.

So, we can clarify that unfortunately you do not have evidence that this truck has been imported legally. The burden of proof is always on the owner for any gray market vehicle.

The way the truck is titled, it is legally allowed to be sold in the US.

No, it is not. It is under 25 years and if built as a “kit”, it consists of dozens of parts that do not bear DOT markings, which do not meet DOT FMVSS. As such, it’s subject to seizure.

It’s a “Kit car” basically for all intents and purposes. If it was titled/licensed as so, there are no issues here, California aside.

I believe awhile ago profitts and a few others were importing pieces and parts creatively and built a few vehicles out of that. Not sure if this is one of those or not.

Usually kit cars are titled/VIN as the year you built it or decided to register it.
If this is titled as a 90s truck, well then you just leave it at creative and maybe someone has friends or a very lax small town DMV.

Seller has stated the way it’s titled is legal to be sold in the US so I would just say buyer do your due diligence. With a US title you probably won’t have any issues.

Nice truck!

Maybe the seller will not have any issues, but again:

1. The seller is uninformed about the federal laws pertaining to vehicle in question.
2. The truck is under 25 years and if built as a “kit”, it consists of dozens of parts that do not bear DOT markings, which do not meet DOT FMVSS.
3. It is subject to seizure.

All the 70 series enthusiasts on here blasting us for asking the seller for information can go pound sand! We all love 70 series. We own them, have owned them, and will buy more of them. Some of us know about the laws, too. They’re not indecipherable.

I personally prefer a forum where knowledge and facts are shared over comments like “just enjoy the truck for what it is”. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive! We still love the truck, just not its legal status!

 

[SNLC]

We would not be “flaming” the truck if the seller were factual about its legality.



So, we can clarify that unfortunately you do not have evidence that this truck has been imported legally. The burden of proof is always on the owner for any gray market vehicle.



No, it is not. It is under 25 years and if built as a “kit”, it consists of dozens of parts that do not bear DOT markings, which do not meet DOT FMVSS. As such, it’s subject to seizure.




Maybe the seller will not have any issues, but again:

1. The seller is uninformed about the federal laws pertaining to vehicle in question.
2. The truck is under 25 years and if built as a “kit”, it consists of dozens of parts that do not bear DOT markings, which do not meet DOT FMVSS.
3. It is subject to seizure.

All the 70 series enthusiasts on here blasting us for asking the seller for information can go pound sand! We all love 70 series. We own them, have owned them, and will buy more of them. Some of us know about the laws, too. They’re not indecipherable.

I personally prefer a forum where knowledge and facts are shared over comments like “just enjoy the truck for what it is”. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive! We still love the truck, just not its legal status!

How about all the other Cruiser items sold on this forum regularly that don’t fit what you are saying is legal and illegal?

Cheers

 

[gilmorneau]

I agree with this. If you really want the truck, just talk to the seller. If the potential buyer is willing to inherit the risk of seizure then it is none of anybody's business of the transaction between the buyer and seller.

If the seller is being dishonest though and hoping a unsuspecting buyer will get it, then shame on him. I can't make that judgement call though because I don't know the seller.

Still like this post.

Note the bit where he says: "If the potential buyer is willing to inherit the risk of seizure then it is none of anybody's business of the transaction between the buyer and seller." Agreed. It's a free country.

And the bit where he says: "If the seller is being dishonest though and hoping a unsuspecting buyer will get it, then shame on him." Yup. No proof that's what he's doing, but that's certainly bad behavior if that's what he's up to.

But there's a third possibility not mentioned here, that @Reinhardtius alludes to, and that is that perhaps the seller is misinformed regarding Federal law, and sincerely believes that his truck is legal. Even if that's the case, the onus is still on the buyer to do his due diligence regarding such matters, and to assess any risk involved. It's obvious that anyone reading this thread who's considering purchase of the subject vehicle would do that.

There also seems to be some equivocation regarding Federal vs. State laws herein. As I've stated before, many times in many places, just because a vehicle has a State title, and license plates DOES NOT mean it's Federally legal. Titles, etc. are issued by States, the laws governing the legality of imports are Federal laws. It's completely possible (and frequently the case) that you can be in compliance with one and in violation of the other.

For instance, re: "Kit Car" status, the State of Colorado defines a kit car as follows: "a passenger-type motor vehicle assembled by other than a licensed manufacturer, from a manufactured kit that includes a prefabricated body and chassis and is accompanied by a manufacturer's statement of origin." Doesn't seem to be applicable in this case. There are other classes of "patchwork" vehicles in the State of Colorado that seem more like what the seller has, such as "Reconstructed Vehicle" or maybe "Rebuilt Vehicle". I'd need to delve more deeply into the definitions, but what the seller has on offer here may be perfectly legal in the State of Colorado under one of those provisions. But all of these presume that the component pieces come from DOT/NHTSA + EPA certified vehicles, which for the subject vehicle, is not the case. Again, the truck may adhere to all State laws, and be perfectly legal in that regard, but I find it difficult to believe that it meets all Federal requirements. Possible, but I'd need to see proof prior to purchase if it were me.

That said, I'm resource poor and risk averse. Someone in different circumstances might willingly accept the (admittedly very small) risk that the Feds are going to come knock on the door.

 

[Honger]

Something that hasn't been mentioned here is: What is the likelihood of impound and or destruction? I'm not going to tell you it won't happen to you, because it could if you have a vehicle here illegally, but every case I've ever heard of involves a shady importer, knowingly importing cars illegally, and knowingly selling them illegally. The government goes after the importer (usually after there have been complaints filed), then tracks down all the contraband vehicles, impounds and destroys them. Never mind that the buyers may have had no idea that their vehicle was imported illegally, or that they have them registered and insured, with license plates and taxes paid. "Whatever", says the government, "it's here illegally".

I'd be very interested to hear if anyone knows first hand (let's try to avoid the internet "alternative fact" rumor mill for now) about any individual, just regular guy, importers who have had their vehicle seized. Guys like me or Ian or Joe who maybe bring in a car now and then, but that's not their primary business. Or guys who've just brought in one, even if it was brought in illegally (if it's been seized, there's nothing to hide about the nefarious activity). I've never heard of it happening, but it may have.

I think this thread has gotten a little off course in regards to picking on @Hondu, but I think some valuable importation discussion has also gone on. I liked where @gilmorneau was going with his thoughts here on people sharing facts of what's happened with importation.

I'm one of the regular guys... have never had anything seized.

I've done six trucks from the Middle East now... 5 FJ40's (1980, 1980, 1982, 1984, and 1977 respectively) and an FJ75 (1991). As all of them were over the 21/25 (EPA/DOT) age requirement, I checked the same fields on the forms as @John Young. I have no idea what happened to the trucks at US customs... my shipper handled that each and every time based on the declarations I made.

None of the FJ40's have dates on their VIN plates, I listed dates for them interpolated from the date spreadsheet in the 40 section here on MUD. The FJ75 has a plate with the manufacture date on it as well as a bunch of Arabic text basically identifying it as complying with GCC standards in some way (the translation given to me was quite rough).

Anyway, another persons experience FWIW. Lots of good info in this thread.

 

[gilmorneau]

Totally tangent to the focus of the thread, but I just re-read the whole thing and there's a bit where guys are talking about importing a truck that's in between 21 and 25 years old (the stupid gap between EPA and NHTSA exemption eligibility) . In that case, the truck would be EPA exempt (though still liable for any applicable State emissions standards), but still require modification to meet FMVSS regulations (i.e. crash safety, lighting, instruments, etc.). Of course, even just the FMVSS can get costly on some vehicles, and may not be possible on others. But that means you could, in theory, bring in a diesel-powered HZJ105 and be EPA exempt (if you don't modify the motor). You'd still need to petition, and undertake all the safety mods, but I'd bet it's possible (since the 100 series has already been petitioned by someone--bless their hearts). C'mon....somebody try it.

 

[Hondu]

I’m glad this thread exists. Learning lots. Knowing what I know now, I would still confidently buy this truck again tomorrow if I could. Hell, maybe I’ll just keep it!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge everyone.

 

[Reinhardtius]

I’m glad this thread exists. Learning lots. Knowing what I know now, I would still confidently buy this truck again tomorrow if I could. Hell, maybe I’ll just keep it!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge everyone.

Great! At least in that scenario, you don't have to worry about you low-balling yourself

 

[SNLC]

Ya know, it is a good discussion but to me at least it has a bit of a negative vibe and some know it all flavor.

FYI, I just cleared and titled a truck this morning. Came in by land from Canada and I cleared it at my local C&BP office. They didn’t charge me any duty, that’s right zero, not a dime paid to clear the truck and only 30 minutes of my time. I pressed the point on the duty, more than willing to pay. Nope he said. Straight to DMV after, zero issues.

So while you can go an quote the feds website, state the laws, provide the info and that is all good. But nothing is set in stone.

Cheers

 

[johntesi]

I avoided commenting on the For Sale thread as I am still actively interested in this truck and don't really want to bump it up and miss out while I'm sorting out some other life logistics, but I wanted to step in here as I have been out to Grand Junction and driven this rig as an interested buyer.

Hondu is an upstanding guy and fully explained all aspects of the 75, including this particular example's unique place in Land Cruiser history in the States to me. The truck drives like a dream. The carb-ed motor hums like a top and with the much lighter body than an 80 series + the 5-speed, it really moves for what it is. I took it for a nice test drive with a friend and my dog, Hank, and had a GJ police car cruising beside and behind us through a whole lot of town. He gave a thumbs-up when he turned off. Not saying that proves anything, but want to take some steam out of the whole "going to get impounded" witch hunt. Most people, from the DMV to the PD, don't know or care about esoteric Toyota truck history. That doesn't change the rules, but it does mean that, especially a decade ago, there are/were plenty of ways to get your dream truck into your state and that once it is here, you are good to go unless you go and open a sketchy importation business that dodges taxes and EPA regs (which is usually what gets those importers flagged in the crushing videos. Remember, Al Capone got busted for tax evasion, not the St. Valentine's Day Massacre).

No need to go full Libertarian here, but give Hondu a call and at the very least you'll have a good understanding of what you're working with. I hate to vouch for a truck I'd like to buy, but I am so grateful for his time and trust in letting me enjoy the vehicle and am fortunate that I was out in Western Colorado, so I owe it to all parties in this wonderful community to chime in.

I'm not a legal expert by any means, but I have helped a friend import a handful of RHD/diesel JDM Toyotas from Canada into Washington state and it is always a lot less dramatic and nerve-racking than the internet would have you believe. Based on my hands-on experience with the truck and Hondu's upstanding explanation of its provenance, I would buy it with confidence if I'd settled on a house already. Because I'm still in limbo and this thread has developed, I wanted to be another voice in here who has driven the truck, met its owner (and who knows a few of his friends quite well), and will add to the conversation in stating that nothing is being hidden here. Registering even a 2020 model vehicle in California sucks (if your windows are too tinted or it's a 49-state version (if they still do that like they did a few years ago?)), so I definitely wouldn't mess with this one. For the rest of us, would be a really special weekend wheeler, coffee shop cruiser, and pickup truck for chores.

 

[FJBen]

Unless you are in California, I'd be pretty dang sure you would license it without any issues whatsoever....and never have to worry about it gain. I don't think thats many peoples question or issues.

apples and oranges...
I bought a 1968 horse trailer, no title, no bill of sale, no VIN. I walked into my small town DMV, said I bought this for $X and it doesn't have a title or VIN. 10 minutes and $14.00 later I had a NET stick for the frame and papers stating I owned and registered it.

My BJ74 wasn't any different. Brought in my title and the VIN inspection (which zero questions asked) and 10 minutes later I had plates.


The point is, that MOST DMV's don't have any interest in a 97 Toyota Land Cruiser unless the title was flagged for some reason, or Doris was having a particular bad day and is taking it out on you. Does that make it legal according to the FEDs? Well, thats what this thread is about. Assume the risk that some day on your wheeling trip to starbucks, 3 black suburbans and 2 helicopters may surround you with laser sights aimed at you, confiscate your rig and shred it on site while you sip on your Soy 1/2 calf veggie mocha frappe....or something like that.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Unless you are in California, I'd be pretty dang sure you would license it without any issues whatsoever....and never have to worry about it gain. I don't think thats many peoples question or issues.

apples and oranges...
I bought a 1968 horse trailer, no title, no bill of sale, no VIN. I walked into my small town DMV, said I bought this for $X and it doesn't have a title or VIN. 10 minutes and $14.00 later I had a NET stick for the frame and papers stating I owned and registered it.

My BJ74 wasn't any different. Brought in my title and the VIN inspection (which zero questions asked) and 10 minutes later I had plates.


The point is, that MOST DMV's don't have any interest in a 97 Toyota Land Cruiser unless the title was flagged for some reason, or Doris was having a particular bad day and is taking it out on you. Does that make it legal according to the FEDs? Well, thats what this thread is about. Assume the risk that some day on your wheeling trip to starbucks, 3 black suburbans and 2 helicopters may surround you with laser sights aimed at you, confiscate your rig and shred it on site while you sip on your Soy 1/2 calf veggie mocha frappe....or something like that.

Well crap. I'll never be able to look at a black Surburban or helicopter in the same way. Fortunately I'm a Maxwell House kinda guy anyway and can't stand Starbucks.

 

[gilmorneau]

So while you can go an quote the feds website, state the laws, provide the info and that is all good. But nothing is set in stone.

True dat. The Customs guys at the shipping ports are a little more stringent about paying (like, I never didn't pay at a port. lol...), but that's what they do all day--they cross T's and dot I's. When you drive across a border, it's probably more paperwork for them and easier to just let you pass on through in some instances. Doesn't surprise me at all.

Way back in post #62 I broached the subject of an owner's likelihood of losing a truck to Federal authorities. Realistically, even if the truck is in the USA technically in violation of the law, the chances are very small (though not zero, of course) that the Feds are paying any attention to it. The riskiest situation, by far, for a buyer is if the truck was illegally, and knowingly so, imported by a sketchy importer, even if said buyer isn't getting the truck directly from said importer. It's usually the importers, those who have blatantly flaunted the law, that capture the attention of law enforcement, not individual buyers. But, and it's a very big but, if a particular truck was originally brought into the USA by a disreputable importer, regardless of how many intermediate owners it's been through, and the Feds bust the importer, they'll find the vehicle.

That said, the only question of any significance I'd have for the seller regarding the truck's legality, were I to be interested in buying it, is regarding provenance, given the considerations above. If the import provenance doesn't raise any red flags, the chances of the Feds coming to get it are very, very small (either because it IS legally here, or because they just don't care enough to go after it). The chances of State or local authorities giving a sh*t are basically zero (except for California, maybe, and the emissions guys along the Front Range of Colorado).

 

[TonyP]

A potential hurdle would be vin verification. I can only speak for Utah but I don't know how you plan on verifying a firewall vin that isn't there. That's a requirement for title transfer, in Utah at least.

Otherwise, you'd probably be fine after it's titled, registered and insured. While everything in this thread may be good to think about, the Feds have more important things to worry about than onesy-twosy farm trucks. Hell, people daily drive their beat to s*** cars on vintage plates in Utah for cheaper yearly reg, which is a violation. They never get hassled.

 

[SNLC]

True dat. The Customs guys at the shipping ports are a little more stringent about paying (like, I never didn't pay at a port. lol...), but that's what they do all day--they cross T's and dot I's. When you drive across a border, it's probably more paperwork for them and easier to just let you pass on through in some instances. Doesn't surprise me at all.

Way back in post #62 I broached the subject of an owner's likelihood of losing a truck to Federal authorities. Realistically, even if the truck is in the USA technically in violation of the law, the chances are very small (though not zero, of course) that the Feds are paying any attention to it. The riskiest situation, by far, for a buyer is if the truck was illegally, and knowingly so, imported by a sketchy importer, even if said buyer isn't getting the truck directly from said importer. It's usually the importers, those who have blatantly flaunted the law, that capture the attention of law enforcement, not individual buyers. But, and it's a very big but, if a particular truck was originally brought into the USA by a disreputable importer, regardless of how many intermediate owners it's been through, and the Feds bust the importer, they'll find the vehicle.

That said, the only question of any significance I'd have for the seller regarding the truck's legality, were I to be interested in buying it, is regarding provenance, given the considerations above. If the import provenance doesn't raise any red flags, the chances of the Feds coming to get it are very, very small (either because it IS legally here, or because they just don't care enough to go after it). The chances of State or local authorities giving a sh*t are basically zero (except for California, maybe, and the emissions guys along the Front Range of Colorado).

Actually any of the illegal trucks here and we know there are a few will have the big problem in an accident, especially if bodily harm or worse happens.

You have mentioned the whole Land Rover ordeal, that happened because the importer was cutting out vins of old trucks and putting them on new trucks and selling them as legal imports. That is illegal on several levels. One of his customers took it to another shop for service or work, shop called it in, game over.

Loose lips sink ships and there are plenty of jealous vindictive people out there with nothing better to do than try and hurt somebody else.

Cheers

 

[gilmorneau]

Actually any of the illegal trucks here and we know there are a few will have the big problem in an accident, especially if bodily harm or worse happens.

Thanks for bringing this up. I totally forgot about this aspect of things, and no one else has mentioned it. Very true. Big, big trouble possible here: Insurance won't pay, Feds seize truck, lawsuits, prosecution...you don't want to think about it. Ugly business.

Not to imply that it's relevant to the truck that instigated this thread (remember the topic of the thread?). There have been lots of opinions posted regarding that truck's legal status, but nothing that positively confirms it.

 

[gilmorneau]

A potential hurdle would be vin verification.

Can't speak for any other states, but Colorado will assign a VIN to some vehicles that originally had non-conforming VIN's. The assigned VIN is tagged on the vehicle, and it's what shows on the title. I've never had it done, but it's not a stretch to imagine they remove the original VIN tag to eliminate confusion. Anyone in CO (or elsewhere) had this done and want to comment?

 

[jfrench]

I love this thread and every post in it, really. I was knee deep in this stuff at one point in the not too distant past and ultimately decided that the infinitesimally small risk was too much for me. If independently wealthy, well, I would have rolled the dice.

More food for thought for MANY of us regardless of satisfying the 21/25 year rules...I believe that in most (dare I say all) cases, aftermarket bumpers do not comply with FMVSS. Those of us who sport them on our rigs are breaking the law. If in a motor vehicle collision, irrespective of fault, one could be liable and get in significant legal trouble if a savvy lawyer got involved. The Federales are most certainly NOT going after every Tom, Dick and Harry with aftermarket bumpers, but all of us gamble a little here and there.

 

[John Young]

Never, ever thought about insurance aspects of making changes to my LC's. According to this site it does not look too bad, but next time I talk to my insurance guy I will ask him about it.

"Custom parts and equipment coverage (CPE) is an endorsement to your policy that covers permanently installed custom parts or equipment, devices, accessories, enhancements and changes other than those installed by the original manufacturer, that alter the performance or appearance of your vehicle."

 

[FJBen]

Can't speak for any other states, but Colorado will assign a VIN to some vehicles that originally had non-conforming VIN's. The assigned VIN is tagged on the vehicle, and it's what shows on the title. I've never had it done, but it's not a stretch to imagine they remove the original VIN tag to eliminate confusion. Anyone in CO (or elsewhere) had this done and want to comment?

That is correct for a few states, but I've usually heard about it on a rebuilt/custom vehicle. I haven't dealt with the older non-conforming but I could see them doing that without much issue. I agree, I would be WAY more worried about Colorado Air Care Special Forces than the Feds coming after you.

Never, ever thought about insurance aspects of making changes to my LC's. According to this site it does not look too bad, but next time I talk to my insurance guy I will ask him about it.

"Custom parts and equipment coverage (CPE) is an endorsement to your policy that covers permanently installed custom parts or equipment, devices, accessories, enhancements and changes other than those installed by the original manufacturer, that alter the performance or appearance of your vehicle."

Yes, there is a slope there....and it involves lawyers... As long as you make sure your insurance is fully aware that you have a modified vehicle, you should be good.
1, it protects you when you wreck or total your fully modified Land Cruiser, that according to them books out at $2,760 for a 1978 FJ40 in fair condition. When you have $20k in aftermarket goodies. (keep reciepts and insurance aware...ask me how I know)
2, your insurance SHOULD have your back if someone is coming after you (lawyers) because some battery powered tin-can pulled out in front of you and your ARB went through them.

You run the risk if Jim Bob Joe cobbled a full frontal max max bumper that fell apart and caused bad injury or death to people, and his insurance had no idea that bumper was on there, you can be sure the other insurance will figure a way to come after that. You will then probably find out Jim Bob Joe's insurance won't pay either because of "modifications"

If you are clear and upfront, I doubt you would have any issue.