Adjustable Rear panhard or delta vs bracket? (1 Viewer)

Broski

I love Wheelin my 80
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So on all the EIMKeith brackets, the stock holes are still accessible if you ever want to go back.
Yep, I even keep a spare bolt in the stock hole 🤷‍♂️ ;)
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For any one that does not understand the importance of haveing the Pan hard parallel to the ground. ;)

That is 1 of 3 benefits that can be achieved and probably the most important. I think raising the roll center as much a possible made a huge difference for me.
1. panhard parallel to ground- axle travels straight up and down
2. raised roll center - height difference fixed on axle side and not frame side
3. centered roll center -which I addressed in my post above

If you look the passenger side bracket sits just below the frame rail. The driver side axle mount is ~4" inside the frame rail which makes the center of the panhard rod lie 2" to the passenger side of the trucks axle/body/center of gravity. I would imagine this causes abnormal suspension loading into the links.

Yeah the axle bracket is staying.

The frame bracket will not raise your roll center like an appropriately sized axle side bracket would. Having a higher roll center is a highly sought after suspension design improvement. There can be a more noticeable difference in handling than a heavy duty sway bar or shocks because it's working when the sway bar and shocks aren't.

Yes, you will have a parallel panhard which will make the suspension move more strait up and down, but its rotating side to side from a lower center point which makes it feel less stable on and off road.
 

Broski

I love Wheelin my 80
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That is 1 of 3 benefits that can be achieved and probably the most important. I think raising the roll center as much a possible made a huge difference for me.
1. panhard parallel to ground- axle travels straight up and down
2. raised roll center - height difference fixed on axle side and not frame side
3. centered roll center -which I addressed in my post above

If you look the passenger side bracket sits just below the frame rail. The driver side axle mount is ~4" inside the frame rail which makes the center of the panhard rod lie 2" to the passenger side of the trucks axle/body/center of gravity. I would imagine this causes abnormal suspension loading into the links.



The frame bracket will not raise your roll center like an appropriately sized axle side bracket would. Having a higher roll center is a highly sought after suspension design improvement. There can be a more noticeable difference in handling than a heavy duty sway bar or shocks because it's working when the sway bar and shocks aren't.

Yes, you will have a parallel panhard which will make the suspension move more strait up and down, but its rotating side to side from a lower center point which makes it feel less stable on and off road.
Just trying to understand, If the pan hard is parallel to the ground, then how can it be rotating side to side ?
 
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Just trying to understand, If the pan hard is parallel to the ground, then how can it be rotating side to side ?

In that last sentence I was referring to the truck as "it" rotating.

The point at which the suspension rotates or pivots side to side from is the "instant center" which ideally we want to be in line with our "roll axis." It can be best corrected at the axle side mount of the panhard.

Essentially by raising the axle side mount of the panhard it raises the "roll center" to be closer to our already raised "center of gravity." This decrease in distance or "roll movement" puts less body roll forces on the vehicle. Less unwanted suspension unloading while off road too.

I hope I explained that well enough. I'm still learning how it all works as well.
 
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Just trying to understand, If the pan hard is parallel to the ground, then how can it be rotating side to side ?
Guess there is another part to answering your question.

I think rotating is the correct term, but to understand the force I'm speaking of measure the center of your parallel panhard bar from bolt eye to bolt eye and mark it. Now measure the center of your axle- tire to tire; wheel to wheel or whatever and mark that on the panhard. Those 2 points (instant center and roll axis) are 2" from each other thus not aligned on the same axis and not moving in perfect synchrony. That make sense to anyone?

Don't get me wrong it's still much better than a panhard with a steep angle, but not ideal even when it's parallel. And depending on how it was corrected to be parallel can play an effect on the results.

Mine is parallel and it handles so much better. Super stable off camber. It's addicting and I want more. Looking at the geometry tells me there is more left on the table by doing a longer mount and bar. I don't want to be the one to engineer it tho.
 
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You think that "triangulation" helps counteract the effect of not running a rear sway bar? :flipoff2:
Nope. I think that using dual rate coils that increase rate to the outside wheels and decrease rate to the inside wheels in cornering forces paired with a shock that is well designed to work with those coils and not overwhelmed by the dynamics of a heavy solid axle vehicle is superior to a cheap torsion bar connected to the solid axle and frame designed to mimic that effect, especially when lifted and no longer operating in its intended design parameters and most likely with original bushings.

I only took it off because it was making contact at full droop with the foam cell pro shocks, and then it went straight to the metal recyclers. I also don’t have a shovel on my roof.

This is me taking pictures for discussions about swaybars while on 38’s without my poor Toyota solid axle torsion bars.

Maybe some help with why my rear locker light is always on?
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Box Rocket

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Nope. I think that using dual rate coils that increase rate to the outside wheels and decrease rate to the inside wheels in cornering forces paired with a shock that is well designed to work with those coils and not overwhelmed by the dynamics of a heavy solid axle vehicle is superior to a cheap torsion bar connected to the solid axle and frame designed to mimic that effect, especially when lifted and no longer operating in its intended design parameters and most likely with original bushings.

I only took it off because it was making contact at full droop with the foam cell pro shocks, and then it went straight to the metal recyclers. I also don’t have a shovel on my roof.

This is me taking pictures for discussions about swaybars while on 38’s without my poor Toyota solid axle torsion bars.

Maybe some help with why my rear locker light is always on?
View attachment 2659872View attachment 2659873
If it were just down to properly matched spring rates and shock combos then track cars and rally cars would not use swaybars. I agree that getting a shock setup to work well with your spring rates is a good approach but I disagree that it's superior than a properly matched setup AND a good swaybar in place.
 

Box Rocket

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Another point is that stock sways may not do much with the current weight of your setup. Upgraded sway bars made a HUGE difference in handling with my Dobinson Variable Rate tapered springs.
Yep. The improvement in handling is very noticeable.
I had my Slinky suspension with a well matched shock setup for almost two years before I upgraded to the rear Blackhawk swaybar. Before upgrading the swaybar there were dirt roads that I drove pretty regularly that I knew pretty close where the limit was for speed through some of the corners and it was pretty white knuckled at that limit with the body roll at those speeds. After upgrading the swaybar it was WAY more comfortable at the same speeds and I could go quite a bit faster before the body roll really started feeling sketchy again. In fact, it wasn't so much that the body roll was the issue, but the rear tires would break loose and the truck would drift. Took some practice to get comfortable drifting a 7500lb truck that's still way too tall to be drifting. haha. Not sure I can honestly say I'm totally comfortable with the feeling of drifting an 80 even after some practice. If the road is wide open and the outside edge of the road isn't a ditch or a berm I don't mind pushing it a bit but there's too many variables that could make things go pear shaped quickly when drifting a tall rig on narrow dirt roads. So I tend to stay somewhat cautious.
 
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Nope. I think that using dual rate coils that increase rate to the outside wheels and decrease rate to the inside wheels in cornering forces paired with a shock that is well designed to work with those coils and not overwhelmed by the dynamics of a heavy solid axle vehicle is superior to a cheap torsion bar connected to the solid axle and frame designed to mimic that effect, especially when lifted and no longer operating in its intended design parameters and most likely with original bushings.

I only took it off because it was making contact at full droop with the foam cell pro shocks, and then it went straight to the metal recyclers. I also don’t have a shovel on my roof.

This is me taking pictures for discussions about swaybars while on 38’s without my poor Toyota solid axle torsion bars.

Maybe some help with why my rear locker light is always on?

So you like updated technology for your springs and shocks, but not your sway bar? That is crazy a 26yr old stock bent rear sway bar with rotted bushings and uncorrected geometry after lifting wasn't doing it's job correctly.

That's great you don't have a spare tire on your roof, maybe there is still hope.

I pulled my rear sway bar off early last year when I still had 6" Slee springs and it wasn't fun to drive. I then tried 4" Dob Flexi and 3" Dob Flexi's and it was way worse. So I ran the same springs and 6" Foam Cell Pro as you. It was sloppy. Now that don't have a 'cheap' sway bar setup it handles like a race car.

Don't get me wrong, it's not cheap, and it is tough to swallow to spend $450 on a stock location sway bar and links. But it will make your driving experience more relaxed than you after a session of yoga.

Like I've mentioned above the only way to theoretically have zero body roll is to have the center of your panhard coincide (left to right) with the center of your axles AND to raise your roll center to be as high as your COG. That means the center of your panhard would have to be the same height from the ground as the crankshaft; front and rear. Thats not happening on an 80 without a complete redesign.

Not running a rear sway bar also makes winter traction worse since the load isn't being more equally distributed to both rear tires. Sketchy
 
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In fact, it wasn't so much that the body roll was the issue, but the rear tires would break loose and the truck would drift.
That's a tell tale sign that the body roll was significant enough to effect traction. The body roll is transferring most of the weight to the outside tire and leaving the inside tire less loaded. Imagine the difference cornering on snow/ice.

The difference was really apparent to me after switching to different control arms and me being part time 4wd. If you can get an 80 to feel like its fulltime 4WD when its hubs are unlocked you know you've made some magic!
 
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That's a tell tale sign that the body roll was significant enough to effect traction. The body roll is transferring most of the weight to the outside tire and leaving the inside tire less loaded. Imagine the difference cornering on snow/ice.

The difference was really apparent to me after switching to different control arms and me being part time 4wd. If you can get an 80 to feel like its fulltime 4WD when its hubs are unlocked you know you've made some magic!
That reminds me of my old Autocross years. One of the fastest cars was on stock suspension with race slicks, and on the corners it would lean way over, but it stuck and he was fast. Thing was, you had to be a great driver with that lean.

On the FJ80 I couldn't handle the lean, it makes it impossible to control the direction of the vehicle. I like the flat controlled handling with the upgraded swaybars.
 

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