A/C servicing; vacuum, oil and charge system? (1 Viewer)

[shtbrwn86]

Doing that this weekend....so if I survive it, I will let you know.

Probably going to remove the passenger side seat for more room.

I'm a full size person 6'-5" and 260 lbs. so any work that involves getting up under the dash or bodily contortions is rough on me. It doesn't help that I am almost 70 yrs. old either. But I just don't trust anyone else to do it right.

The good news is I am retired and Mrs. Flintknapper has another vehicle to drive....so if I reach a quitting point, I WILL.

And I have Cold Beer....if comes down to that.

View attachment 3466549

You can’t reach a quitting point! You’re my inspiration on a lot of these things and if you bail on something then there’s no way I could do it! Lol. But that beer is a good START.

 

[flintknapper]

I haven’t done it yet but the books says to remove the entire dash. But there’s a guy on here that sells a repair bracket so you can just cut the plastic bar and then reconnect it with the bracket.

Yep, you'll want to have that on hand before starting. Bought one about a year ago....and had to find it.

 

[flintknapper]

You can’t reach a quitting point! You’re my inspiration on a lot of these things and if you bail on something then there’s no way I could do it! Lol. But that beer is a good START.

Oh I NEVER quit a 'project'....never. But I might reach a quitting point during the day.

 

[Eyedaho]

Doing that this weekend....so if I survive it, I will let you know.

Probably going to remove the passenger side seat for more room.

I'm a full size person 6'-5" and 260 lbs. so any work that involves getting up under the dash or bodily contortions is rough on me. It doesn't help that I am almost 70 yrs. old either. But I just don't trust anyone else to do it right.

The good news is I am retired and Mrs. Flintknapper has another vehicle to drive....so if I reach a quitting point, I WILL.

And I have Cold Beer....if comes down to that.

View attachment 3466549

That's a good idea to pull the seat.

 

[Eyedaho]

Yep, you'll want to have that on hand before starting. Bought one about a year ago....and had to find it.

View attachment 3466553View attachment 3466554

I have that bracket on hand as well.

 

[shtbrwn86]

@flintknapper What's your plan for removing the condenser? Pull it out from the top or the bottom? I think you are supposed to take it out from the bottom but then you need a lift?

 

[flintknapper]

@flintknapper What's your plan for removing the condenser? Pull it out from the top or the bottom? I think you are supposed to take it out from the bottom but then you need a lift?

Took mine out the top. Since I am going to be replacing my Compressor, I removed the fan and fan shroud to make enough room to bring the compressor out the top. At that point its pretty easy to unbolt the radiator and tilt it back toward the engine. Then condenser can slide right out the top.

Let me know when you are ready to install your new compressor and I'll give you some helpful hints. Maybe save you some frustration.

 

[tahakamee]

How big of a temperature difference is between front and rear AC cooling?

Looking to replace condenser and compressor, debating whether should I replace rear expansion valve.

Also for compressor alone it requires 5 ounces of oil?

 

[flintknapper]

How big of a temperature difference is between front and rear AC cooling?

Looking to replace condenser and compressor, debating whether should I replace rear expansion valve.

Also for compressor alone it requires 5 ounces of oil?

I can only speak to my vehicle, but rear A/C vent temps are fully 6 °F greater than the front vent temps AND when the rear A/C is engaged (summertime, hot day) it is 'parasitic' to the front vent temps by about 4 degrees,

In short, the rear A/C vent temps are never as cool as the front vents (my vehicle) AND when the rear A/C is engaged... it hurts the temps up front.

 

[2001LC]

Frustrated

What is oil capacity of the whole A/C system (w/rear air) of a 100 series?
What is oil capacity of compressor, alone?
Draining new Toyota remanufactured compressor of oil, assuming some remains. How much should be added?

__________________________________________________________________________

So I've a Toyota remanufactured -84 Compressor, w/instruction. Which seems poorly written:
"With compressor in upright position" WTF does that mean? The Denso instruction clear that up. " Service valve(s) in an upright position".
Okay; So compressor orientation on the bench in same horizontal orientation as would be while attached to engine in the vehicle. Valves on top!

"Hand turn the clutch pressure plate a minimum of 10 times release lubricant from the compressor head." What does "released from head", actually mean. Does that it comes out of compressor, leaving correct amount needed in?. Which I did lose some, as I turned pressure plate.

Denso instruction: Service Valve Installation NOTE: Not all DENSO compressors require the service valve(s) to be reused. If the compressor type does not use a separate service valve(s), it is mandatory to still verify the level of compressor lubricant. (See Fig. 1)

Neither the Denso nor the Toyota instruction, state any amounts. Neither for whole system or just compressor.

Denso states to measure amount from old compressor, then remove excess oil from new. By measuring total in both.
But measuring oil from old AC compressor. Doesn't take into consideration, spliage, a system with leaks that may have ran low on oil, or system filled with oil or anything that may leave old compressor lower or higher than optimal for a perfect setup/running system.

Timmy Toolman said drain and add 2oz.
One Youtube self proclaimed expert instructor. Said add 1/2 systems total capacity. Which then means ~4oz based on what been written in this thread.

In this thread it was suggested to add 6 oz to a blow out system. Assumes ~2 oz remain in whole system, we can't get out.
Also it was stated as: 8 oz to 9 oz is dry capacity.

 

[abuck99]

I’ve heard that some oil remains as well so you’ll need less than you expect. @flintknapper showed some proficiency in 100 series A/C systems, maybe he’ll chime in.

I know you’re tooled up for this job. Maybe ask Robbie if you don’t find your answer.

 

[flintknapper]

Frustrated

What is oil capacity of the whole A/C system (w/rear air) of a 100 series?
What is oil capacity of compressor, alone?
Draining new Toyota remanufactured compressor of oil, assuming some remains. How much should be added?

__________________________________________________________________________

"Hand turn the clutch pressure plate a minimum of 10 times release lubricant from the compressor head."

Denso states to measure amount from old compressor, then remove excess oil from new. By measuring total in both.

Yes, IF the systerm has not been 'flushed' or blown out, 'some' amount of oil remains in the system.

The instructions 'assume' the correct amount (or a sufficient amount) of oil is present in the system upon removal of the old compressor. A... 10PA20C Compressor will be shipped with approximately 8 fl. oz of oil in it. (roughly enough for the entire system if evacutated and flushed).

Since you are only replacing the compressor, that amount would be too much, so you are instructed to remove some of the oil in the new compressor. The new compressor (as a single component) will need about 4 ozs of oil. Really no need to drain the old compressor and compare amounts....because you won't get all of it out anyway.

You DO need to rotate the new compressor to get as much oil out of it as possible, since the oil is being pumped through the head and pistons. Once you feel as if it has been emptied, then add back 4 ozs and call it good.

Assuming your A/C system has been serviced at some point in its life (perhaps multiple times), we have no way of knowing with certainty....how much oil (in total) is in the system. Many mechanics/service stations add about 2 ozs of oil anytime the system is evacuated (and some just when adding refrigerant). It may or may not have needed it.

Too much oil (by a wide margin) will reduce cooling capacity of the system. Too little, of course, will shorten compressor life.

It is not critical that you be 'dead on' with respect to total system oil capacity. Get it as close as you can, circumstance permitting.

With rear air......between 8-9 ozs TOTAL system oil charge has worked well for me.

 

[LJE]

Yes, IF the systerm has not been 'flushed' or blown out, 'some' amount of oil remains in the system.

The instructions 'assume' the correct amount (or a sufficient amount) of oil is present in the system upon removal of the old compressor. A... 10PA20C Compressor will be shipped with approximately 8 fl. oz of oil in it. (roughly enough for the entire system if evacutated and flushed).

Since you are only replacing the compressor, that amount would be too much, so you are instructed to remove some of the oil in the new compressor. The new compressor (as a single component) will need about 4 ozs of oil. Really no need to drain the old compressor and compare amounts....because you won't get all of it out anyway.

You DO need to rotate the new compressor to get as much oil out of it as possible, since the oil is being pumped through the head and pistons. Once you feel as if it has been emptied, then add back 4 ozs and call it good.

Assuming your A/C system has been serviced at some point in its life (perhaps multiple times), we have no way of knowing with certainty....how much oil (in total) is in the system. Many mechanics/service stations add about 2 ozs of oil anytime the system is evacuated (and some just when adding refrigerant). It may or may not have needed it.

Too much oil (by a wide margin) will reduce cooling capacity of the system. Too little, of course, will shorten compressor life.

It is not critical that you be 'dead on' with respect to total system oil capacity. Get it as close as you can, circumstance permitting.

With rear air......between 8-9 ozs TOTAL system oil charge has worked well for me.

View attachment 3897312

That's quality information right there!

 

[2001LC]

Yes, IF the systerm has not been 'flushed' or blown out, 'some' amount of oil remains in the system.

The instructions 'assume' the correct amount (or a sufficient amount) of oil is present in the system upon removal of the old compressor. A... 10PA20C Compressor will be shipped with approximately 8 fl. oz of oil in it. (roughly enough for the entire system if evacutated and flushed).

Since you are only replacing the compressor, that amount would be too much, so you are instructed to remove some of the oil in the new compressor. The new compressor (as a single component) will need about 4 ozs of oil. Really no need to drain the old compressor and compare amounts....because you won't get all of it out anyway.

You DO need to rotate the new compressor to get as much oil out of it as possible, since the oil is being pumped through the head and pistons. Once you feel as if it has been emptied, then add back 4 ozs and call it good.

Assuming your A/C system has been serviced at some point in its life (perhaps multiple times), we have no way of knowing with certainty....how much oil (in total) is in the system. Many mechanics/service stations add about 2 ozs of oil anytime the system is evacuated (and some just when adding refrigerant). It may or may not have needed it.

Too much oil (by a wide margin) will reduce cooling capacity of the system. Too little, of course, will shorten compressor life.

It is not critical that you be 'dead on' with respect to total system oil capacity. Get it as close as you can, circumstance permitting.

With rear air......between 8-9 ozs TOTAL system oil charge has worked well for me.

View attachment 3897312

Thanks @flintknapper. I shouldn't be low adding 4oz. As you suggest. Better high than low.

________________________________________

FWIW: I got about 1oz. out of old compressor:

____________________________

It in a 235K mile, clean, 06LX. This A/C was working, blowing very cold. I didn't get actually temp. Just had running, while listening to unusual sound from A/C compressor. OAT was only ~ 62f in the shop, so any A/C, many have felt very cold. But it did strike me as "very cold". So not likely a system with to much oil. Also, based on statements and service history. A/C had never had any service.

Sound was only when clutch engaged and RPM above ~2K. At first I was going to just replace clutch, thinking it's bearing shot and or clutch slipping. But while fiddling around trying to get snap ring off in-situ. I notice bearing felt and sounded good with belt off, and air gap look okay. Compressor and clutch were also, clean looking. I put belt back on and started back up and ran A/C again. Comparing sound with another clean lower mile 07LX. Using a stethoscope, I notice sound differences between the two vehicles, even idling when clutch engaged. No unusual sounds, when clutch disengage. It seems abnormal sound coming from within compressor. So decided to replace compressor and clutch. Once I pulled from vehicle, and separated clutch from compressor. I could see clutch plates, look fine. Bearing was not new at 235K miles, but not what I call bad. Compressor turn easy, but did feel a little "something" as compared to the new Toyota a reman I had on bench.

Anyway, based on how cold A/C blew, statements of service history and look. I did not think A/C system was overfilled with oil. That it was most like factory oil and amount. But had some concern it may have been low. Why:

1. Because of sound.
2. I only found 1 oz in old compressor when I drain it.

Unfortunately I wasn't real careful, as I pulled compressor from vehicle and did lose some oil from L line, and less from H. I estimate ~1/2oz. I didn't think, I lost any from old compressor. But as I said, I wasn't all that careful.

Anyway, my first time looking into ND-OIL 8 capacity of a 100 series. So, I wanted to drill down and get the actual factory fill info. Total and break out by components of system.

So I pull multiple (98-07) FSM, looking for system capacity and that of components like compressor. I couldn't find the info. Just some amounts to add, when replacing components:

• Condenser add in 1.4OZ
• Evaporator front, add in 1.4OZ
• Evaporator rear, add in 1.4OZ

Only 4.2oz. Total. How can that be. No way is there only 4.2OZ in our A/C system. I need to look harder, for the info.

The direction, that came with Toyota -84 compressor are poor IMHO. So I look at Denso. Denso did do a better job writing their instruction. Neither actually said, how much oil came within compressor, or if was enough for entry system. But I assume it was enough for a dry system.
Denso instructions: Measure amount in old and new, remove overage from new.

Timmy the Toolman, has a video R&R with Denso compressor. He said, parts guy said: pour out the 10 oz of oil that comes in Denso compressor. Tim then stated, they guy he was working with/for did some homework: said add back 2 OZ.

I check with my parts guy at Toyota. He's Manager of parts at Dealership and has been great sources of info, over the past 25 years, that I've known him. He look for capacity and any TSB within the Toyota knowledge base. He found nothing more than I did.

So I went into the shop, and spoke with a senior tech, that's been there over 25 years. He said new compressor comes with total system capacity. Remove from it, amount equal to what condenser holds. Which is where most oil is held, in A/C system. Okay, I just need capacity for condenser or how much FSM states add if replaced. Well I did a little digging (could have done more) only found recommandation to add 1.4oz, when replacing condenser.

So measure what came out of new compressor. Let sit draining for 10 minutes, and change angles as I turn pump.
New Toyota -84 compressor held ~10 OZ. Plus what remains. So they come with 11 OZ to 12 OZ ,I'm assuming.

So is I remove only 1.4 OZ (condenser amount) from compressor. That would mean I have more than 8.6 OZ up to 10.6 OZ remaining just in compressor alone.

So after 2 days of digging i've recommendation of:
1oz
2oz
4oz
10 oz (about in new after removing 1.4oz)
Total averages to 4.25 OZ. Rock sciences.

I did see in the thread. It was noted as 5oz for condenser. If correct. Then -5 oz form new compressor, would leave in about 5 oz. So 4 or 5 oz seems a safe number.

 

[flintknapper]

Thanks @flintknapper. I shouldn't be low adding 4oz. As you suggest. Better high than low.

________________________________________

FWIW: I got about 1oz. out of old compressor:

____________________________

It in a 235K mile, clean, 06LX. This A/C was working, blowing very cold. I didn't get actually temp. Just had running, while listening to unusual sound from A/C compressor. OAT was only ~ 62f in the shop, so any A/C, many have felt very cold. But it did strike me as "very cold". So not likely a system with to much oil. Also, based on statements and service history. A/C had never had any service.

Sound was only when clutch engaged and RPM above ~2K. At first I was going to just replace clutch, thinking it's bearing shot and or clutch slipping. But while fiddling around trying to get snap ring off in-situ. I notice bearing felt and sounded good with belt off, and air gap look okay. Compressor and clutch were also, clean looking. I put belt back on and started back up and ran A/C again. Comparing sound with another clean lower mile 07LX. Using a stethoscope, I notice sound differences between the two vehicles, even idling when clutch engaged. No unusual sounds, when clutch disengage. It seems abnormal sound coming from within compressor. So decided to replace compressor and clutch. Once I pulled from vehicle, and separated clutch from compressor. I could see clutch plates, look fine. Bearing was not new at 235K miles, but not what I call bad. Compressor turn easy, but did feel a little "something" as compared to the new Toyota a reman I had on bench.

Anyway, based on how cold A/C blew, statements of service history and look. I did not think A/C system was overfilled with oil. That it was most like factory oil and amount. But had some concern it may have been low. Why:

1. Because of sound.
2. I only found 1 oz in old compressor when I drain it.

Unfortunately I wasn't real careful, as I pulled compressor from vehicle and did lose some oil from L line, and less from H. I estimate ~1/2oz. I didn't think, I lost any from old compressor. But as I said, I wasn't all that careful.

Anyway, my first time looking into ND-OIL 8 capacity of a 100 series. So, I wanted to drill down and get the actual factory fill info. Total and break out by components of system.

So I pull multiple (98-07) FSM, looking for system capacity and that of components like compressor. I couldn't find the info. Just some amounts to add, when replacing components:

• Condenser add in 1.4OZ
• Evaporator front, add in 1.4OZ
• Evaporator rear, add in 1.4OZ

Only 4.2oz. Total. How can that be. No way is there only 4.2OZ in our A/C system. I need to look harder, for the info.

The direction, that came with Toyota -84 compressor are poor IMHO. So I look at Denso. Denso did do a better job writing their instruction. Neither actually said, how much oil came within compressor, or if was enough for entry system. But I assume it was enough for a dry system.
Denso instructions: Measure amount in old and new, remove overage from new.

Timmy the Toolman, has a video R&R with Denso compressor. He said, parts guy said: pour out the 10 oz of oil that comes in Denso compressor. Tim then stated, they guy he was working with/for did some homework: said add back 2 OZ.

I check with my parts guy at Toyota. He's Manager of parts at Dealership and has been great sources of info, over the past 25 years, that I've known him. He look for capacity and any TSB within the Toyota knowledge base. He found nothing more than I did.

So I went into the shop, and spoke with a senior tech, that's been there over 25 years. He said new compressor comes with total system capacity. Remove from it, amount equal to what condenser holds. Which is where most oil is held, in A/C system. Okay, I just need capacity for condenser or how much FSM states add if replaced. Well I did a little digging (could have done more) only found recommandation to add 1.4oz, when replacing condenser.

So measure what came out of new compressor. Let sit draining for 10 minutes, and change angles as I turn pump.
New Toyota -84 compressor held ~10 OZ. Plus what remains. So they come with 11 OZ to 12 OZ ,I'm assuming.

So is I remove only 1.4 OZ (condenser amount) from compressor. That would mean I have more than 8.6 OZ up to 10.6 OZ remaining just in compressor alone.

So after 2 days of digging i've recommendation of:
1oz
2oz
4oz
10 oz (about in new after removing 1.4oz)
Total averages to 4.25 OZ. Rock sciences.

I did see in the thread. It was noted as 5oz for condenser. If correct. Then -5 oz form new compressor, would leave in about 5 oz. So 4 or 5 oz seems a safe number.

Tech gave you erroneous info. Most of the lubricatiing oil will be in the compressor, not condenser. Just figure on 4 ozs for the compressor and given your service history....we will assume the rest of the system still has an adequate amount.

Total system oil capacity for a rear air equipped L/C...LX is going to be around 8.5 to 10 ozs. I run mine at 9 ozs. And yes, there is precious little printed information to draw from.

 

[2001LC]

Tech gave you erroneous info. Most of the lubricatiing oil will be in the compressor, not condenser. Just figure on 4 ozs for the compressor and given your service history....we will assume the rest of the system still has an adequate amount.

Total system oil capacity for a rear air equipped L/C...LX is going to be around 8.5 to 10 ozs. I run mine at 9 ozs. And yes, there is precious little printed information to draw from.

I did the 4oz.

Vacuum more than 12 hours and then watch to see if would vacuum for ~1 hour. Perfect.! Charged with 3 cans from NAPA.

I only got down to 52f at vent. But could use a better thermometer and I did notice, cabin fan sounds labored. Likely need new filters and cleaning.

If I understand system correctly:
Oil is distributed by coolant (134a). So system will hold oil where it's needed, provide it has adequate amount in total. To much oil and will not run as cool, to little and may burn up pump (compressor).
Is that a fair statement?

One more question. If while charging. Engine idling, on a AC on cold, fan on high, doors open, air intake fresh (outside air), filling on LOW side. A can is swap out, without closing manifold LOW side. Will coolant escape out fill (yellow) hose?

 

[flintknapper]

Correct, the lubricating oil is carried throughout the system by the refrigerant. Too much oil (by a large amount) will definitely inhibit cooling. Too little (again by a large amount) will shorten compressor life.

Your question about manifold valve position, depends on the manifold set. Some have a valve to isolate (turn off) the service hose (yellow hose). IF so equipped, you can leave the low side valve open and turn off just the service valve. Change the can, purge the service line and open that valve to continue charging.

Many (most) less expensive manifold sets do not have a service line shut off valve....in which case you will need to close the low side valve (blue) before changing cans. Otherwise you will lose refrigeant and likely introduce air into the system.

It is good practice (regardless the manifold) to shut the low side valve before changing cans and to always 'purge' the service hose before opeing the low side again, so you don't let any air into the system.

 

[2001LC]

Correct, the lubricating oil is carried throughout the system by the refrigerant. Too much oil (by a large amount) will definitely inhibit cooling. Too little (again by a large amount) will shorten compressor life.

Your question about manifold valve position, depends on the manifold set. Some have a valve to isolate (turn off) the service hose (yellow hose). IF so equipped, you can leave the low side valve open and turn off just the service valve. Change the can, purge the service line and open that valve to continue charging.

I've don't have isolated shutoff valve. Just close at manifold (blue).

I notice when filling HIGH side, engine off, with first can liquid state. The valve leaked a little. Where inlet hose (yellow) threads to brass needle can tap.

Many (most) less expensive manifold sets do not have a service line shut off valve....in which case you will need to close the low side valve (blue) before changing cans. Otherwise you will lose refrigeant and likely introduce air into the system.

I do understand LOW (blue) valve at manifold, should be closed. When swapping to next can (anytime fill hose/port end is open).
I do understand why, refrigerant would be lost if manifold low Blue) valve & yellow hose end open (no can) Since system has positive pressure, it could flow out, like turning on a faucet.

I don't understand why, If A/C system run. With say; ~25 PSI in low side and ~200 psi high side of system. How air would "likely" be introduced?

It is good practice (regardless the manifold) to shut the low side valve before changing cans and to always 'purge' the service hose before opeing the low side again, so you don't let any air into the system.

For sure. I do, by lying can on it side. Then placing rag over relief valve as I releasing relief AIR VALVE with small screwdriver, while wear goggles and gloves.

 

[flintknapper]

I don't understand why, If A/C system run. With say; ~25 PSI in low side and ~200 psi high side of system. How air would "likely" be introduced?

IF we were talking about 'static pressure' (compressor not running) then the pressure in the system would always force air away from the system (as long as it was greater than atmospheric pressure).

But remember, when the compressor is running, the low side is the 'suction' side. That is how you are able to introduce the refrigerant gas from the can into the system to begin with. So any source for air (not purged from lines or open to atmosphere) can be drawn in too.

 

[2001LC]

IF we were talking about 'static pressure' (compressor not running) then the pressure in the system would always force air away from the system (as long as it was greater than atmospheric pressure).

But remember, when the compressor is running, the low side is the 'suction' side. That is how you are able to introduce the refrigerant gas from the can into the system to begin with. So any source for air (not purged from lines or open to atmosphere) can be drawn in too.

I was thinking the positive pressure, shown on manifold gauge, when AC running. Was indication of positive pressure, for both LOW & HIGH sides. That the can's pressure, was greater than that in low side of AC system.