75' Drum Brake Woes and OEM Parts Availability (3 Viewers)

[Wildcat Walker]

When I first took ownership of my 01/75' FJ40 I replaced the entirety of the hydraulics on the braking system. The parts were sourced by the previous owner through CCOT. This included wheel cylinders, master cylinder, hoses, hardlines, and additionally a full set of shoes. The drums and hardware were re-used. After less than 1,000 miles the brake shoes failed with a couple shoes suffering a complete separation of the friction material from the shoe backing. I replaced all the shoes with Beck Arnley shoes 081-0887. About the time I changed the shoes, the wheel cylinders started sticking and I noticed a substantial decrease in braking performance. Fed up with the poor quality parts I opted to start the process of rebuilding the original wheel cylinders in preparation for the trucks second complete brake job. To top it all off, the CCOT master cylinder began to weep from the fluid reservoirs and has been an eye sore in the engine bay since installed.

After a lot of patience, a bit of heat, and a lot of soaking I was able to get the original wheel cylinders disassembled, cleaned, de-rusted, and lightly honed. Now we just need some quality made in Japan OEM parts!

The first issue, which I have been aware of for some time, is the OEM master cylinder, 47201-60030. Discontinued by Aisin and therefore no longer available through Toyota or Rock Auto. I understand there are a few suppliers that still have a limited inventory of the "aftermarket" Aisin masters, but holy cannoli the price went from like $75 to $375. I get the whole "supply and demand" explanation, but from a customers point of view this increase is VERY hard to justify and extremely frustrating.

The second issue is the wheel cylinder rebuilds. After teardown and inspection, I dug through the catalog and got all of the part numbers for the parts I needed. Pretty much unavailable at the dealer so I went to Amayama. The total price for everything was $125 with shipping included. This included replacement of some of the aluminum cups, springs, and even the adjuster lock screws. Everything needed to make the originals function as new. Then I get an email stating that there is a supply restriction on the cup kits (rubbers) and that they can not be shipped to the USA. WTH, we can get failure prone garbage from China through CCOT but we can't get the original Japanese rubber parts through Toyota in Japan?!?!? I know there are stateside suppliers that offer a Japanese sourced cup kit but JUST the price of the rubbers is MORE than everything I needed through Amayama (a Japanese middleman).

On the surface it looks like the wheel cylinders can be ordered through Amayama for about $100 each but that's $800 just for wheel cylinders. Add in a $400 master cylinder and you could have bought a couple of nice guns. The original MSRP for the WHOLE truck was only about $5,000. I'm getting a little too long in the tooth for this nonsense.

So how do I approach this issue without selling my soul to the devil to pay for it? I need quality Japanese parts at a reasonable price. Is wanting to be able to stop my rig safely, dependably, and still be able to eat too much to ask for?

 

[Wildcat Walker]

I'll post some pics when the server cooperates.

 

[charliemeyer007]

Long time ago I bought brake parts from them. From "put it on upside down" to a "double acting cylinder" for the front - never again. Last year I got wheel cylinders from a different vendor. Yea they fit and work. The bottom of adjusters slots are milled flat instead of on a slope which helps keep the shoes centered. They cut the thread in the bleeder wrong - to use my Mitey Vac brake bleeder I tried grease on the threads, teflon tape, finally Permatex worked. Had to grind the shoes some to fit in the slot in the adjuster.

If you plan on trying to use kits, a good hone is the ticket. I bought real red rubber grease from England on ebay - use anything else and the seals swell and fail soon.

NLA is what it is.

If I redo the brakes again I'm going with a disk conversion I can get parts for.

 

[Jdc1]

Front disc conversion from a later model 40 or 60, and keep the rears stock drum. I’ll use either an Aisin FJ60 or and early 80 series master.

That will last a long time and you’ll be a lot happier with the way she stops.

 

[pb4ugo]

4 wheel disc's using stk Toyota in the frt and GM rears and be done with the nightmare. My 1st swap was in the 90's on my 72 and never regretted it. I recently added 4 wheel disc's on my new to me 75 b4 i ever put it on the road.

 

[Wildcat Walker]

Front disc conversion from a later model 40 or 60, and keep the rears stock drum. I’ll use either an Aisin FJ60 or and early 80 series master.

That will last a long time and you’ll be a lot happier with the way she stops.

I did contemplate this at one time. The drums work fine when they work. I do need a knuckle rebuild/re-seal so this would kill two birds with one stone.

 

[Wildcat Walker]

Long time ago I bought brake parts from them. From "put it on upside down" to a "double acting cylinder" for the front - never again. Last year I got wheel cylinders from a different vendor. Yea they fit and work. The bottom of adjusters slots are milled flat instead of on a slope which helps keep the shoes centered. They cut the thread in the bleeder wrong - to use my Mitey Vac brake bleeder I tried grease on the threads, teflon tape, finally Permatex worked. Had to grind the shoes some to fit in the slot in the adjuster.

If you plan on trying to use kits, a good hone is the ticket. I bought real red rubber grease from England on ebay - use anything else and the seals swell and fail soon.

NLA is what it is.

If I redo the brakes again I'm going with a disk conversion I can get parts for.

The angled geometry of the pistons is one feature I wanted to get back to by using the OEM parts.

 

[Wildcat Walker]

The price for the 1978 FR Disc master 47201-60050 is even worse than the one for my 75'. Sheesh, $527.

Improving quality of life is a core Toyota principle. These current prices from the OE suppliers and distributors instead improve the quality of life for the seller. A key tenet of the Toyota Way is to "base your management decisions on a long-term philosophy, even at the expense of short-term financial goals.

This does not help the community. I've seen vehicles parked for lesser problems.

 

[Jdc1]

The price for the 1978 FR Disc master 47201-60050 is even worse than the one for my 75'. Sheesh, $527.

Improving quality of life is a core Toyota principle. These current prices from the OE suppliers and distributors instead improve the quality of life for the seller. A key tenet of the Toyota Way is to "base your management decisions on a long-term philosophy, even at the expense of short-term financial goals.

This does not help the community. I've seen vehicles parked for lesser problems.

FWIW- I work with a very original ‘77, Have a Raybestos master in it as it looks proper and has lasted over a year now. The owner didn’t want to spend for the Aisin.

 

[Wildcat Walker]

Guess all the work was for not.

 

[pb4ugo]

I recently purchased an Advics Master Cylinder for my 75 40 with 4 wheel discs thru Rock Auto for under $100 delivered. Advics is the replacement for Aisin parts. I believe Cruiser Outfitters sells Advics too. You might call them. They probably can recommend a less expensive master for your application. You might have to move the brake lines around.

I used Advics part # BMT090. It's a 1" bore master for a FJ80 without ABS and was recommended to use on my 4 wheel disc brakes conversion.

 

[Wildcat Walker]

I recently purchased an Advics Master Cylinder for my 75 40 with 4 wheel discs thru Rock Auto for under $100 delivered. Advics is the replacement for Aisin parts. I believe Cruiser Outfitters sells Advics too. You might call them. They probably can recommend a less expensive master for your application. You might have to move the brake lines around.

I used Advics part # BMT090. It's a 1" bore master for a FJ80 without ABS and was recommended to use on my 4 wheel disc brakes conversion.

Thats about how much they all cost until they become "rare". It would be interesting to see if the residual valves can be changed so that a disc master could be converted to drum.

 

[pb4ugo]

As I recall drum brakes generally use a 1" diameter master. Cruiser outfitters sells an Advics master for 1/75 to 9/75 which would be for drums too. You might be able to use it, but I think the location of the brake line ports are at a different location. On top instead of being on the side. I'd give C/outfitters a call. When I 1st did my disc brake conversion on my Oct 71 I used the stk master and removed the residual valves.

 

[Wildcat Walker]

As I recall drum brakes generally use a 1" diameter master. Cruiser outfitters sells an Advics master for 1/75 to 9/75 which would be for drums too. You might be able to use it, but I think the location of the brake line ports are at a different location. On top instead of being on the side. I'd give C/outfitters a call. When I 1st did my disc brake conversion on my Oct 71 I used the stk master and removed the residual valves.

P=F/A so changing bore size affects the amount of force required to push the pedal to achieve a certain pressure and subsequent level of braking at the wheels. Masters of different bore sizes can sometimes be interchanged so as long as you are aware of and willing to accept the changes to the pedal feel, this is common on the vintage Nissan side. My master is the 1/75 model with the pressure switches on the underside and the ports facing the drivers side. I realize Kurt has a few of the Advics units in stock, but $275 is a bit more than I would like to spend for a $75 master cylinder. The master wont help much without solving the slave cylinder parts availability issues also.

 

[pb4ugo]

I think in this case the bore diameter had to do more with pushing more volume and 8 wheel cylinders. When they went to frt disc brakes they went to a 7/8" bore size. I found this out when I went to a Dana frt end with larger calipers than stk. I was using a 7/8" bore cylinder and had to pump the brakes once to get a good pedal. I then installed the 1" bore and the pedal was perfect, no pumping. With power brakes resistance is minimal. When I went from 7/8" to 1" on my 75 I didn't notice any real difference in resistance but it did raise my pedal height to my liking.

 

[Wildcat Walker]

I think in this case the bore diameter had to do more with pushing more volume and 8 wheel cylinders. When they went to frt disc brakes they went to a 7/8" bore size. I found this out when I went to a Dana frt end with larger calipers than stk. I was using a 7/8" bore cylinder and had to pump the brakes once to get a good pedal. I then installed the 1" bore and the pedal was perfect, no pumping. With power brakes resistance is minimal. When I went from 7/8" to 1" on my 75 I didn't notice any real difference in resistance but it did raise my pedal height to my liking.

The brake fluid volume is mostly incidental, unlike a hydraulic system that contains a pump or stroking cylinder, hydraulic brakes have their friction components very close together and the required translation of those parts (or one of them) to act on the other is relatively small. The important metric is the force the translating component can impart on the pad or shoe. In your case, you had to push the pedal harder in order to generate a larger pressure and subsequent force at the piston, the perception is volume because as you push the pedal further more fluid is moved. On a 4 wheel drum 40, there is 12 pistons, and on a disc/drum 40 there is 14 pistons, what their total area is I do not know. When you went to the larger bore, it required less pedal input force to generate the same pressure.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...The first issue, which I have been aware of for some time, is the OEM master cylinder, 47201-60030. Discontinued by Aisin and therefore no longer available through Toyota or Rock Auto. I understand there are a few suppliers that still have a limited inventory of the "aftermarket" Aisin masters, but holy cannoli the price went from like $75 to $375. I get the whole "supply and demand" explanation, but from a customers point of view this increase is VERY hard to justify and extremely frustrating.

IMO, it actually isn't hard to justify for many. $375 for an discontinued OEM (Aisin/Advics is OEM) part that will last another 30-40 years (or far more by tossing in a Japanese rebuild kit), is pretty modest imo. Note, we (Cruiser Oufitters) don't have one to sell you, we sold our last OEM/AISIN one last year. If you wouldn't mind sharing who still has the 47201-60030/31 (BMT-060) for $375, I'd love to pick one or two up. That is about what I paid for the last few I bought out of the Middle East after tax, duties and shipping. For those that need a lower cost option, there are a wide variety of aftermarket or used OEM cores available to toss a rebuild kit in.

The second issue is the wheel cylinder rebuilds. After teardown and inspection, I dug through the catalog and got all of the part numbers for the parts I needed. Pretty much unavailable at the dealer so I went to Amayama. The total price for everything was $125 with shipping included. This included replacement of some of the aluminum cups, springs, and even the adjuster lock screws. Everything needed to make the originals function as new. Then I get an email stating that there is a supply restriction on the cup kits (rubbers) and that they can not be shipped to the USA. WTH, we can get failure prone garbage from China through CCOT but we can't get the original Japanese rubber parts through Toyota in Japan?!?!? I know there are stateside suppliers that offer a Japanese sourced cup kit but JUST the price of the rubbers is MORE than everything I needed through Amayama (a Japanese middleman).

On the surface it looks like the wheel cylinders can be ordered through Amayama for about $100 each but that's $800 just for wheel cylinders. Add in a $400 master cylinder and you could have bought a couple of nice guns. The original MSRP for the WHOLE truck was only about $5,000. I'm getting a little too long in the tooth for this nonsense.

Supply restriction from Amayama generally means it's a NLA part. I'm assuming they do that to keep search engine optimization? Not sure but that is not a country resricted part, it's discontinued imo. Need all (8) cylinder kits? I'd be happy to give them to you for $70/set of 8. Or, we can get you setup with a full set of (8) Japanese complete new wheel cylinders for $300. We will be setting up sets of (4) and (8) on our CruiserTeq site soon.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The price for the 1978 FR Disc master 47201-60050 is even worse than the one for my 75'. Sheesh, $527.

Improving quality of life is a core Toyota principle. These current prices from the OE suppliers and distributors instead improve the quality of life for the seller. A key tenet of the Toyota Way is to "base your management decisions on a long-term philosophy, even at the expense of short-term financial goals.

This does not help the community. I've seen vehicles parked for lesser problems.

Sell it and improve the quality of life for someone excited to get it fixed up right

If you think I'm retiring on the handful of NOS AISIN master cylinders we have in stock, I'd love to sell you a business with the inventory so you can retire next. Many of these NOS parts come from overseas, i.e. I pay full retail (or their NOS price) and then the shipping, customs, duties, brokerage and tariffs, etc. I do this just to get my hands on 1 or 2 or 10 more of something for my customers. For those that have been hunting an OEM part for their rebuild or restoration, they seem happy as could be to buy them. For every NOS part I buy hoping to find a customer in need, there are 2 or 3 that will sit on my shelves until internal combusion engines are banned and we are loading them all into a dumpster.

Again, there are pleeeenty of lower cost options to fix your brakes, including doing a salvage yard disc brake swap or converting to an 8x Series master cylinder with an inline residual valve. But you can't want/need discontinued/OEM parts and expect them to be the same price they were for 15 years imo.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

P=F/A so changing bore size affects the amount of force required to push the pedal to achieve a certain pressure and subsequent level of braking at the wheels. Masters of different bore sizes can sometimes be interchanged so as long as you are aware of and willing to accept the changes to the pedal feel, this is common on the vintage Nissan side. My master is the 1/75 model with the pressure switches on the underside and the ports facing the drivers side. I realize Kurt has a few of the Advics units in stock, but $275 is a bit more than I would like to spend for a $75 master cylinder. The master wont help much without solving the slave cylinder parts availability issues also.

Come on now... they haven't been a "$75 master cylinder" for decades. I bought a couple from Rock Auto when they started to get hard to get 5 years ago, they were $166.79. Next complain about gas not costing a nickle

I can't speak to personal experience but we have had drum/drum customers run the drum/drum non-US (larger brake shoe/cylinder) master cylinder. It's a 1-1/8" bore versus the 1" of the 60030/31. They are still available (for now) from Japan manufactures at what I consider a reaonable value:

Brake Master Cylinder - Dual Reservoir - Fits FJ45/HJ45 Applications (BKN60040N)

Brake Master Cylinder - Dual Reservoir - Fits FJ45/HJ45 Applications (BKN60040N)

cruiserteq.com

 

[Wildcat Walker]

@cruiseroutfit Kurt, I knew you couldn't resist this thread. FWIW I think your business is a good resource to the community and I appreciate that you have gone to other markets to buy limited quantities of inventory to re-sell to those of us who are more (or much more) fortunate than others. This is one of those instances where your price is your price and I can't justify it, there needs to be nothing else said.

These brake parts are a good example of how the overhyped "Heritage Parts Program" has failed us. Safety critical parts should be a priority of that program and the costs should be kept to a minimum to support the die hards, why else does the program exist? Awhile back I put all new OEM Tokico shocks on my 40. They were about $20 each. I damaged one on the trail and went back to the dealer to get a replacement. The part number had been superseded and the new price was $40. When I opened the package, the original $20 part number was stamped into the shock body, it was identical. There is no reason or excuse for that sort of nonsense. Again, a key tenet of the Toyota Way is to "base your management decisions on a long-term philosophy, even at the expense of short-term
financial goals."

I will solve this problem. I'll find the best quality and available parts at the lowest price. I won't lie though, It would be nice if I could get the OEM parts at normal prices. $1200 for a master cylinder and slave cylinder rebuild is asinine.