60 Series Axle swap with the Trail Tailor Coil Conversion (1 Viewer)

[Nad Aitch]

I looked at the delta arms and they all seem to have too much positive caster. I’m literally at +5 or +6° right now

If you're at 5.5° degrees on 5° plates the delta 2" arms would put you at 3.7 which is within factory spec for an 80 (3° +-1).

There might be some used ones in the classifieds right now (wink wink) that you could try and resale if needed with no financial loss.

I've driven my truck back to back with 2 degrees and 4 degrees of caster and greatly prefer 4. 2 degrees is stressful to drive in my opinion.

Edit- oops, I see you have some nice new brackets. Ignore all

Sweet build

 

[Broski]

I was trying to race the sunset and forgot to take pics but 5 hours from start to finish to cut off the 2 brackets and weld the new ones on and reinstall the axle.

My alignment is all jacked up now, but let me tell ya. My truck is completely silent. The only noise it makes is from the spare tire chain rattling around. I had gotten so used to the loud creaky noise of the front springs rubbing that it’s kinda weird with the truck being so quiet now.

I can definitely tell a difference in the caster and steering feel. In a good way. My steering wheel would fight me if I took 90* turns too fast before but now it just feels like any old 80 series. Which was the goal in the first place.

Also, idk if it’s placebo but with the front springs sliding up the center of the bump stop towers on every bump, it added some harshness to the suspension. Now that they don’t rub it kinda feels a bit softer. I’m doing some side work on a pretty much stock 80 series right now and I took it for a spin after test driving my truck and my truck is significantly more stable and feels better. Will be interesting to see after I put a dobinsons suspension on the 80.


The only photo I took. Removing the radius arms is kinda sketchy with everything attached to the truck still

View attachment 3693192

Yes very sketchy
You seem very talented and mechanically minded so sometimes I don’t want to say anything.

But there’s nothing in you alignment that could’ve changed other than your caster by changing the control arm mounts.
This is assuming you didn’t touch the drug line or tie rod.

 

[Nad Aitch]

I've swapped out my radius arms a half dozen times now. I just park the truck unbolt them and roll. I don't even use jack stands anymore. Last time I wasn't even on flat ground.

 

[dbbowen]

Curious how your alignment numbers will end up. Awesome fix.

Same, going to try and get one this week to see how it ends up

Yes very sketchy
You seem very talented and mechanically minded so sometimes I don’t want to say anything.

But there’s nothing in you alignment that could’ve changed other than your caster by changing the control arm mounts.
This is assuming you didn’t touch the drug line or tie rod.

haha i think the way i did it wasnt the best, i had both tires off the ground and did one side at a time, the first one came out very easily, but the second one didnt because the first side was twisting the axle since it was fully mounted in. Thankfully i wont ever have to do that again, at least for a very long time hahah

Now that you mention it, i dont know if my toe is off very much or at all, the steereing drag link i think chaged some and my steering wheel is crooked. I also had to adjust my panhard bar one turn, so 1/16 or 1/8 of an inch haha

I've swapped out my radius arms a half dozen times now. I just park the truck unbolt them and roll. I don't even use jack stands anymore. Last time I wasn't even on flat ground.

WTF. I definitely didnt do this the easiest way. I had it up on jackstands with the tires on but off the ground haha

 

[dbbowen]

Fine tune dialing in the coil swap. Added the @Delta VS panhard bracket and the difference is instantly noticeable. Before the difference in slope between the ends of the panhard bar was 4 inches, but now it’s 1 inch. 1 inch is about what a stock 80 has.

After doing some calculations, I’m right at 3 inches of lift if it was an 80 series. 3.5 if it was still a leaf 60.

I’m not really sure where to route my exhaust since the panhard bar will rise up as the driver side goes up, but as of right now, I just cut off the tailpipe at the Vband right behind the muffler.

I’m pretty sure this bracket is designed for the stock panhard bar but the 80 frame width is different than the 60 frame width so I kept the adjustable panhard bar. I had to cut like 2-3 inches off the threaded portion of the adjustable panhard to get it to work but it works. Tire shoulder to fender lip is within 1/32 of an inch of each other left to right on the alignment.

The truck drove very very well before this bracket but it drives even better now. The rear is SUPER planted.

 

[dbbowen]

Also, after the last comments about the delta radius arms… I found a really good deal on a used set with new bushings. So going to throw those in there too this weekend

 

[Broski]

Also, after the last comments about the delta radius arms… I found a really good deal on a used set with new bushings. So going to throw those in there too this weekend

As you know every change has its issues.
When adding more caster to a 80 axle it also changes the pinyon angle.
Now that you dropped the frame mount's for the control arms to achieve proper caster adding the Delta arm may point the pinyon down to much.
To much caster may also make the steering feel heavy.

 

[Broski]

Fine tune dialing in the coil swap. Added the @Delta VS panhard bracket and the difference is instantly noticeable. Before the difference in slope between the ends of the panhard bar was 4 inches, but now it’s 1 inch. 1 inch is about what a stock 80 has.

After doing some calculations, I’m right at 3 inches of lift if it was an 80 series. 3.5 if it was still a leaf 60.

I’m not really sure where to route my exhaust since the panhard bar will rise up as the driver side goes up, but as of right now, I just cut off the tailpipe at the Vband right behind the muffler.

I’m pretty sure this bracket is designed for the stock panhard bar but the 80 frame width is different than the 60 frame width so I kept the adjustable panhard bar. I had to cut like 2-3 inches off the threaded portion of the adjustable panhard to get it to work but it works. Tire shoulder to fender lip is within 1/32 of an inch of each other left to right on the alignment.

View attachment 3701037

The truck drove very very well before this bracket but it drives even better now. The rear is SUPER planted.


View attachment 3701035

Is it just the picture or is the frame side panhard Mount not fully welded ?
That mount sees a lot of force!

 

[4runner2FJ60]

Man....I was worried you were talking about the front panhard! Ha ....thanks for detailing all this and confirming the lift info.

 

[Nad Aitch]

Delta arm may point the pinyon down to much.
To much caster may also make the steering feel heavy.

He got the 2" arms which should put him right at 3 degrees and don't add vibes with fresh u joints, in an 80 at least. I don't know about the 60s tcase front pinion but I can't imagine this being too complicated.

 

[dbbowen]

As you know every change has its issues.
When adding more caster to a 80 axle it also changes the pinyon angle.
Now that you dropped the frame mount's for the control arms to achieve proper caster adding the Delta arm may point the pinyon down to much.
To much caster may also make the steering feel heavy.

So i gave Jason at TT some bad info when i was telling him my lift stuff because i wasnt measuring properly. The Swaps he does at his shops are much lower than mine, and his dropped frame mounts correct the caster for when you are using stock height 80 coil springs. It ends up being like .5 inch of lift for an 80 series, and like 1.5 inch lift from the 60 series leaf spring perspective.

I ended up with using OME 2850 Heavy springs, which on an 80 are 2 inches of lift plus heavy weight. Jasons brackets add .5 of an inch and with my 60 being so much lighter than the 80 series (LS, small ish bumper, 8k winch), it netted me 3-3.5 inch of lift. After installing the drop frame brackets i ended up right at 0* of caster. The Dobinsons radius arms were giving me way more than the advertised 5* of caster with my setup. I believe the caster changes will change with how tall your springs are and its not just like a linear change.

Im hoping with the 2 inch Delta radius arms it says it will add 3.5 degrees and get me to stock specs. Guess we will see. I do know when i was at +6 my pinion angle was a little messed up, i havent measured right now at 0* but im interested in seeing how it ends up. Going from +6 to 0 caster was such a signifigant change my steering wheel drag link needed to be adjusted quite a bit after i removed the plates.

Is it just the picture or is the frame side panhard Mount not fully welded ?
That mount sees a lot of force!

Its welded, the frame kinda bends up right there and where it attaches to the frame is up a little higher than where it is in that pic

Man....I was worried you were talking about the front panhard! Ha ....thanks for detailing all this and confirming the lift info.

Haha no theres not much you can do with the front panhard besides setting it left to right. I got the math on centering the axle pretty much dialed so when you do it give me a shout.

Keep in mind, My truck sits a good inch or so higher than @TRAIL TAILOR s swaps he does at his shop, My rear spring buckets are mounted lower on the frame because i wanted to be able to get the boxed end of a ratcheting wrench in there to tighten the top nut easily. Id say my Rear spring buckets are a good inch lower than where he mounts his, so when i use "stock height springs" they are actually stock height +1 inch from me mounting the mounts lower, and also +.5 inch for the extra height built into the kit. Its why i had to use such tall springs up front.


Im hoping that folks can see the little fine tuning stuff that goes into the swap and do it the first time instead of like me, doing it multiple times until its perfect hahaha

 

[dbbowen]

He got the 2" arms which should put him right at 3 degrees and don't add vibes with fresh u joints, in an 80 at least. I don't know about the 60s tcase front pinion but I can't imagine this being too complicated.

on paper i should end up right at 3.5-4 degrees of positive caster. My knuckle balls are off about a half degree between the two. I wish i knew the math to calculate caster degree change to pinion angle change but I think i should be pretty good on pinion angle, if i remember my tcase flange is like 2 or 3 degrees pointed up. I think the arms should get me pretty close.


Also thank you so much for the Radius arms by the way!

 

[Nad Aitch]

on paper i should end up right at 3.5-4 degrees of positive caster. My knuckle balls are off about a half degree between the two. I wish i knew the math to calculate caster degree change to pinion angle change but I think i should be pretty good on pinion angle, if i remember my tcase flange is like 2 or 3 degrees pointed up. I think the arms should get me pretty close.


Also thank you so much for the Radius arms by the way!

Caster change == pinion change - err, at least almost Can't rotate one without the other. The only slight complication is that changing the angle of the spring bucket will slightly affect your lift height, which in turn (see what I did there) changes your caster.

I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle (can't help myself) thinking about this - none of your angles are extreme at all so you should be fine. You're part time anyways it's not like you're gonna have to deal with vibes at 70 mph even if it wasn't ideal.

The 80 guys get all worked up about this since we're factory AWD spinning the frontend at highway speed.

 

[tmxmotorsports]

@dbbowen I'm sure everything is good with the weld in the picture just me at the very top weld where it stops I would recommend following that all tye way through to the top and around the other side competing the weld . As far as the rest lots of changes going on.

 

[dbbowen]

Caster change == pinion change - err, at least almost Can't rotate one without the other. The only slight complication is that changing the angle of the spring bucket will slightly affect your lift height, which in turn (see what I did there) changes your caster.

I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle (can't help myself) thinking about this - none of your angles are extreme at all so you should be fine. You're part time anyways it's not like you're gonna have to deal with vibes at 70 mph even if it wasn't ideal.

The 80 guys get all worked up about this since we're factory AWD spinning the frontend at highway speed.

Haha yeah right now the angles are kind of extreme to be honest, pinion is kinda pointed down and tcase is pointed up. Im hoping that it ends up being ok. As long as its not sounding like a washing machine with a bunch of baseballs in it when im in 4 high going like 30 max im good with a little bit of vibration.

You couldnt pay me to make this thing awd haha

@dbbowen I'm sure everything is good with the weld in the picture just me at the very top weld where it stops I would recommend following that all tye way through to the top and around the other side competing the weld . As far as the rest lots of changes going on.

View attachment 3701278

Damn, good catch, i need to wrap that corner, that looks like a crack waiting to happen. See this is why i post pictures of all of my stuff. I would have missed that and wonder why it cracked. I specifically tried to not put too much heat into that weld because the frame isnt really the strongest right there right before the C channel. Especially on the inside of the frame.

 

[dbbowen]

Well. I tried. Took the springs and shocks out and lifted the axle until the tire was into my fender and routed the exhaust through, but it still hits going over the speed humps in the testing grounds aka my neighborhood.

At this point im going to put a turn down off of the vband on the end of the muffler and call it a day. My exhaust has zero drone, but i hope its not too loud with it reverberating off of the street.

 

[Lucky1386]

That's a bummer. But piece by piece you are getting it all dialed!

 

[dbbowen]

That's a bummer. But piece by piece you are getting it all dialed!

Thanks man! I think the only way to have a tailpipe would be to run it over to the passenger side and cross right above the panhard bar over there since it doesnt swing up over there. Which would be a lot of work haha

 

[Nad Aitch]

pinion is kinda pointed down and tcase is pointed up. Im hoping that it ends up being ok.

I don't know anything about 60s, but in an 80 at least the tcase points up 2° in a "broken back" system with the front driveshaft out of phase (yokes offset). So it's probably not as extreme as you think. It's not supposed to be parallel.

 

[dbbowen]

I don't know anything about 60s, but in an 80 at least the tcase points up 2° in a "broken back" system with the front driveshaft out of phase (yokes offset). So it's probably not as extreme as you think. It's not supposed to be parallel.

View attachment 3701323

Oh man thats literally perfect, Thats what my tcase does because i had to angle my engine back 2 degrees. My rear output flange points 2* down and my front points 2* up. My front driveshaft uses 80 series (toyota mini truck) ujoints and stuff too. This might actually work out to be perfect