3UR-FE timing chain tensioner and oil viscosity (1 Viewer)

[2021 LC200]

Another Interesting Car Care Nut video, in this case on the US build Tundra 3UR-FE and issue with timing chain tensioner. Wondering whether 0W20 pushed by the EPA is resulting in less oil pressure and possible issue with these tensioners not exerting enough force. Seems the rotor type oil pump and efficiency of the same to build pressure is better with 5W30.

Afterall the 3UR-FE was originally designed for 5W30 looking at the 200 series history and recommended oil for the 3UR-FE in many other countries.

Anybody has witnessed higher oil pressure on the dashboard gauge when switching from 0W20 to 5W30?

Maybe I see this wrong. Your thoughts please?



Chain Tensioners operated by oil pressure

3UR-FE oil pump

 

[bloc]

Anybody has witnessed higher oil pressure on the dashboard gauge when switching from 0W20 to 5W30?

Yes, though it was an extremely small change on the gauge, it did "seem" higher.

The really noticeable thing? Quieter valvetrain immediately.

 

[skrypj]

I ran 10w-30 in my GX460 1UR because why not. The international owners manual were clear that you could run up to 20W-50 or something like that so 10W-30 was fairly middle of the road.

 

[2021 LC200]

Yes, though it was an extremely small change on the gauge, it did "seem" higher.

The really noticeable thing? Quieter valvetrain immediately.

Good to know. Was already planning to switch to 5W-30.

For warranty purposes had Toyota dealer do every 5k from new (Dec 2020) with 0W-20. Next oil change at 35000 miles I will do myself. Especially since the dealer m$nkeys dropped a bunch of oil on the factory cover which leaked onto the floor in my garage. Had to drop it and took me a while with engine cleaner to clean back to new. Already do all maintenance on the 535d myself, next the Land Cruiser. Look forward to it.

 

[NeilC]

I think a lot of the problems that all manufacturers are seeing related to timing chain/valve train/lifter problems are exacerbated by the 0w20 oil requirement. Lighter oil "can" lubricate better in some situations but there is a reason that worldwide the vast majority of manufactures use a graduated scale based on ambient temperature to determine what viscosity to use. I am sick of hearing "the engineers know best". The US has the guidance in the law to use the 0w20 oil for fuel economy. That took the engineers out of the equation. Whenever the term "severe duty" is used in the manuals, it will tell you to use a heavier oil.

I live in Louisiana where we hit 105 to 110 degree highs this past summer. I tell everyone that will listen to consider running a good synthetic 5w30 instead of the 0w20 if they are out of warranty. As far as I know all 0w20 is synthetic which helps but it still doesn't cut it in HOT climates. That's my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

 

[04UZJ100]

What is the consensus on this actually causing a problem? I have the infamous noise indicating this is an issue on my 14 LX. It only happens under certain scenarios. Not when the engine is cold or warm - in a transient period after startup as things warm up. I would venture to guess that most 200/3UR owners have the same issue since it’s not audible from the cabin and, like I said, only happens ~2min startup at idle. Sound goes away entirely after warmed up.

Everything I have read is that these don’t actually fail and there is no degradation of anything internal. Guides all come out pristine etc.

 

[04UZJ100]

I think a lot of the problems that all manufacturers are seeing related to timing chain/valve train/lifter problems are exacerbated by the 0w20 oil requirement. Lighter oil "can" lubricate better in some situations but there is a reason that worldwide the vast majority of manufactures use a graduated scale based on ambient temperature to determine what viscosity to use. I am sick of hearing "the engineers know best". The US has the guidance in the law to use the 0w20 oil for fuel economy. That took the engineers out of the equation. Whenever the term "severe duty" is used in the manuals, it will tell you to use a heavier oil.

I live in Louisiana where we hit 105 to 110 degree highs this past summer. I tell everyone that will listen to consider running a good synthetic 5w30 instead of the 0w20 if they are out of warranty. As far as I know all 0w20 is synthetic which helps but it still doesn't cut it in HOT climates. That's my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

I ran 5w30 since 2000 miles on my 2020. It is incumbent on the manufacturer to prove why something should not be covered by the warranty (in the rare case of engine failure). Would love to have a technical conversation with Mr T since 5W30 is very clearly recommended everywhere else in the world.

 

[bloc]

What is the consensus on this actually causing a problem? I have the infamous noise indicating this is an issue on my 14 LX. It only happens under certain scenarios. Not when the engine is cold or warm - in a transient period after startup as things warm up. I would venture to guess that most 200/3UR owners have the same issue since it’s not audible from the cabin and, like I said, only happens ~2min startup at idle. Sound goes away entirely after warmed up.

Everything I have read is that these don’t actually fail and there is no degradation of anything internal. Guides all come out pristine etc.

I believe the bad chain rattle can cause problems if not addressed, as it’s a really violent action on plastic guides and thin chains, small contact area between cam lobes and lifters, etc.

But the more mild longer-term tapping sound? Most likely not a problem. I agree many people don’t even know they have this, and we aren’t seeing failures of that part of the system.. almost ever?

That’s not consensus though. Just my gut.

 

[04UZJ100]

I believe the bad chain rattle can cause problems if not addressed, as it’s a really violent action on plastic guides and thin chains, small contact area between cam lobes and lifters, etc.

But the more mild longer-term tapping sound? Most likely not a problem. I agree many people don’t even know they have this, and we aren’t seeing failures of that part of the system.. almost ever?

That’s not consensus though. Just my gut.

From what I see though, the rattle only happens at idle, in park, under very specific operating temperatures (not cold, not warmed up….in the transient phase).

 

[bloc]

From what I see though, the rattle only happens at idle, in park, under very specific operating temperatures (not cold, not warmed up….in the transient phase).

The bad start-up rattle? Have you heard it in person? It’s very clear there is enough energy to damage things if it goes unchecked. Also I believe I Do Cars has torn down a 3UR that had the chains jump a tooth or two. That is ultimately the real risk in having the chains that slack.

 

[2021 LC200]

What is the consensus on this actually causing a problem? I have the infamous noise indicating this is an issue on my 14 LX. It only happens under certain scenarios. Not when the engine is cold or warm - in a transient period after startup as things warm up. I would venture to guess that most 200/3UR owners have the same issue since it’s not audible from the cabin and, like I said, only happens ~2min startup at idle. Sound goes away entirely after warmed up.

Everything I have read is that these don’t actually fail and there is no degradation of anything internal. Guides all come out pristine etc.

04UZJ100, if i may ask, what viscosity are you using (and have used in the past) and milage on your 14 LX?

Thanks a lot!

 

[04UZJ100]

04UZJ100, if i may ask, what viscosity are you using (and have used in the past) and milage on your 14 LX?

Thanks a lot!

5W30 since 70k. M1 synthetic with 5k intervals. Was fed 0W20 TGMO on 10k intervals prior to that.

140k now. Noticed noise about 20k ago.

 

[2021 LC200]

5W30 since 70k. M1 synthetic with 5k intervals. Was fed 0W20 TGMO on 10k intervals prior to that.

140k now. Noticed noise about 20k ago.

Thanks much for the insights. As one may already have suspected from starting this thread and searching for another good reason to change... I am planning to go from 0W20 to 5W30 at 35k miles and keep changing at 5k intervals. Considering Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30, which seems to get good reviews and appears reasonable priced at $32.5 per 5 quarts jug. Hopefully that delays these issues as I try to get to 250k+ in the next 20y+

Will look for pressure gauge increase pre and post and report back in due time. Probably try to take idle and say 30mph at same rpm for better comparison.

Anybody has an overview of the 3UR-FE lubrication flow path and where the P sensor is located?

 

[skrypj]

Thanks much for the insights. As one may already have suspected from starting this thread and searching for another good reason to change... I am planning to go from 0W20 to 5W30 at 35k miles and keep changing at 5k intervals. Considering Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30, which seems to get good reviews and appears reasonable priced at $32.5 per 5 quarts jug. Hopefully that delays these issues as I try to get to 250k+ in the next 20y+

Will look for pressure gauge increase pre and post and report back in due time. Probably try to take idle and say 30mph at same rpm for better comparison.

Anybody has an overview of the 3UR-FE lubrication flow path and where the P sensor is located?

Historically, PUP 5W-30 tends to run on the thinner end of the 5W-30 range, closer to a 20 weight. Its still falls in the 30 weight range but there are thicker ones out there.

There is nothing wrong with it but if the goal is to run a thicker oil to help with the timing chain tensioner, there may be better options.

Could also look into some 5W-30 Euro oils. The Euro oils tend to run a bit heavier I think, but many of them are API SN, SN+ or SP rated which I think is all that Toyota really requires in the owners manual.

 

[04UZJ100]

Historically, PUP 5W-30 tends to run on the thinner end of the 5W-30 range, closer to a 20 weight. Its still falls in the 30 weight range but there are thicker ones out there.

There is nothing wrong with it but if the goal is to run a thicker oil to help with the timing chain tensioner, there may be better options.

Such as?

 

[32cls6speedmt]

FYI. Pennzoil has a nice rebate going on.

Thanks to @04UZJ100 a few years ago. I started using 5w-30 at 100k miles. I am currently at 159k. I have been using mobile 1 ep or valvoline ep. I have mine changed at 6k with oem filter. No rattles yet.

 

[2021 LC200]

Historically, PUP 5W-30 tends to run on the thinner end of the 5W-30 range, closer to a 20 weight. Its still falls in the 30 weight range but there are thicker ones out there.

There is nothing wrong with it but if the goal is to run a thicker oil to help with the timing chain tensioner, there may be better options.

Could also look into some 5W-30 Euro oils. The Euro oils tend to run a bit heavier I think, but many of them are API SN, SN+ or SP rated which I think is all that Toyota really requires in the owners manual.

Thanks for the heads up. Will need to look into this further then oil by oil and any viscosity data out there.

 

[skrypj]

Such as?

I think a lot of other 5W-30 will be a bit thicker. Just one example is Quaker State Full Synthetic(used to be called Ultimate Durability) which is also produced by Shell. Here is the PUP 5W-30 data sheet which says the viscosity at 100C is 10.3:

QSUD 5W-30 is 11.6:

And, again, I am not saying PUP is a bad oil, but if the goal is to get something a bit thicker in the engine then its not the best option.

 

[skrypj]

Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-30 is 11.9, PP Euro L is 12.5. Both are API SN.

 

[2021 LC200]

I think a lot of other 5W-30 will be a bit thicker. Just one example is Quaker State Full Synthetic(used to be called Ultimate Durability) which is also produced by Shell. Here is the PUP 5W-30 data sheet which says the viscosity at 100C is 10.3:

View attachment 3552692

QSUD 5W-30 is 11.6:

View attachment 3552693

And, again, I am not saying PUP is a bad oil, but if the goal is to get something a bit thicker in the engine then its not the best option.

Per internet search apparently Toyota 0W20 is 36.1 cSt at 40 C and 8.5 cSt at 100C

Per data above, PUP 5W30 is 56.3/10.3 cSt and QFS 5W30 is 66.65/11.6 cSt. Quite an increase actually in viscosity and during transition from startup to full operating temps.

Also looked up TGMO (Toyote Genuine Motor Oil) 5W30 which is 56.2 cSt/9.95 cSt at 40/100 C. PUP 5W30 is viscosity wise about identical, so probably will give that a go.

With the 3UR-FE originally designed for 5W30 it really puts the question around the suitability of 0W20 and the point made that bureaucrats at EPA are not engineers and/or interested in durability. Maybe I change my oil to 5W30 before 35k miles...