3FE head to 2F (1 Viewer)

[ClemsonCruiser]

Just a quick question for the cruiser gurus out there. I have been trying to dig up information on the board here about fuel injecting 40's via the 3FE. I was interested in attempting to install, but with just the 3FE head and CPU into my 40, and not the whole engine as that seems to be the comine route; mainly because I just had my 2F rebuilt. Seems like a good combo after reading the Toyota Trails article this month.

My question is, I found a thread that referenced that only 80 year models and up 2F's could be used, because of the the domed pistons in pre-80 2f's. Is this true? If that is the case, what is the problem with the domed pistons, does it create to high of a compression ratio??? The reason I ask is my 2F is a 76.

Also can you just install the EFI system and intake manifold onto a 2F head or is the 3F head completely different from the 2F? I know there are GM Fuel Injections out there for the 2F but it I go FI I want it to be Toyota. I guess I am anal about the fact that I want only Toyota parts residing in my cruiser if I can help it.

Any help is appreciated
JP

 

[Poser]

The domed pistons will interfere with the cylinder head. You will need to change out to flat top pistons, find a short block from a later model, or find a complete engine. The cylinder heads are not the same between your 1976 2F and the post 1985 2F and 3FE engines. Your combustion chamber in your head is a very large ‘open’ design, whereas the later cylinder heads are a ‘closed’ or smaller design, hence the need for flat top pistons.


IIRC there are people that have installed the fuel injection system on earlier 2Fs....I cannot locate those threads right now...I am sure someone will post up a link...if I don't..


Hope this helps.


Good luck!


-Steve

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

yep that helps for sure steve, and I appreciate it.

If you think people have installed them on early 2F heads before, that gives me some hope. I couldn't find any posts that detailed such an installation so I hope some posts it up. Thanks

JP

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

anyone know if the 3FE intake manifold will bolt up to a 2F head?

 

[honk]

Here's a little bit of an answer:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=26691&highlight=head+fit

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

Thanks for the link.......

see the problem is I have a 76 2f, with the domed pistons, so I can not put a 3F head on mine as mentioned in the link above.

My only hope would be that the EFI system would bolt up to the 2F head, and as Poser said he believes this has been done, but I don't want to go out and buy the EFI and CPU until I know for sure it can be done. So if anyone knows a definitive answer please post up.

 

[Tigerstripe40]

Thanks for the link.......

see the problem is I have a 76 2f, with the domed pistons, so I can not put a 3F head on mine as mentioned in the link above.

My only hope would be that the EFI system would bolt up to the 2F head, and as Poser said he believes this has been done, but I don't want to go out and buy the EFI and CPU until I know for sure it can be done. So if anyone knows a definitive answer please post up.

Supposedly, you can bolt the 3FE intake manifold and exhast to the 2F head, but you wither have to grind the 2F head to clear the injector tips or you have to make a spacer that stands the 3FE intake off of the side of the block, set up to also provide clearance for the injector tips.

Personally, I'd just try to find an Offenhauser 4 barrel intake manifold, and run a TBI and MegaSquirt.... But that's my 2 cents.

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

James, that is what I needed to hear. thanks

and yeah you are right the TBI would be easier, but Like I said I want to keep it Toyota. This is just a side project for me to do, it gives me something to play around with, so I am in no hurry to have it and if it doesn't work out that is okay with me. I just wanted something to provide a little challenge, and it looks like this might be it. I was also thinking of installing a custom powerdyne supercharger set-up if I can make the EFI set-up work, that would be a sweet deal IMHO.......

 

[Tigerstripe40]

James, that is what I needed to hear. thanks

and yeah you are right the TBI would be easier, but Like I said I want to keep it Toyota. This is just a side project for me to do, it gives me something to play around with, so I am in no hurry to have it and if it doesn't work out that is okay with me. I just wanted something to provide a little challenge, and it looks like this might be it. I was also thinking of installing a custom powerdyne supercharger set-up if I can make the EFI set-up work, that would be a sweet deal IMHO.......

I am still working on the TBI setup, but that is stalled because I had to buy new tires (some jerk knifed mine, so I had to buy some new tires).

I was originally going to go with the 3FE intake stuff, running off of the MegaSquirt controller. The intake I found had a bad throttle position sensor. Then I found out how much a new toyota TPS was going to be... That pretty much put an end to that project. However, I will admit that for my desired application, the 3FE intake stuff would have been perfect. (EFI was about half of the game).

 

[cruiseroutfit]

No, the 3FE intake WILL NOT bolt up to a regular 2F head. There is a transistion 2F carb head that was used just prior to the 3FE that has the extra 2 bolt holes for the 3FE manifold, but at this time none of us have ever confirmed that is also has the injector notches required. The head was only available for a few months as I recall...

As for putting the 3FE on a domed pistion engine, it can be done. There is an FJ40 here in SLC that had the late model 2F head (has the 3FE manifold bolt pattern) modified to run the dome pistons. It was more of an accident that it happened, but in the end it worked fine. The kid worked PT at Cruiser Outfitters, he needed a new head so he pulled the cleanest one he could find off of the shelf and took it to the machine shop... he never thought to look at the pistion configuration. After pulling his head and prepping the new head for install, he discovered that it wasn't going to happen... well some minor machining later, and he had the late model head on. I want to know if it has the injector notches, but that will require pulling the intake/exhaust to do so...

(James, this is Trents FJ40 I am referring to)

 

[Tigerstripe40]

No, the 3FE intake WILL NOT bolt up to a regular 2F head. There is a transistion 2F carb head that was used just prior to the 3FE that has the extra 2 bolt holes for the 3FE manifold, but at this time none of us have ever confirmed that is also has the injector notches required. The head was only available for a few months as I recall...

As for putting the 3FE on a domed pistion engine, it can be done. There is an FJ40 here in SLC that had the late model 2F head (has the 3FE manifold bolt pattern) modified to run the dome pistons. It was more of an accident that it happened, but in the end it worked fine. The kid worked PT at Cruiser Outfitters, he needed a new head so he pulled the cleanest one he could find off of the shelf and took it to the machine shop... he never thought to look at the pistion configuration. After pulling his head and prepping the new head for install, he discovered that it wasn't going to happen... well some minor machining later, and he had the late model head on. I want to know if it has the injector notches, but that will require pulling the intake/exhaust to do so...

(James, this is Trents FJ40 I am referring to)

Couldn't the 2F head be drilled and tapped for the extra bolt holes, or is the pattern completely different?

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

so I could have a late model 2F head or a 3F head machined to work with the domed pistons??? do you know more specific info on what exactly the kid had done??

I really appreciate the info.

JP

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Couldn't the 2F head be drilled and tapped for the extra bolt holes, or is the pattern completely different?

"Could" but there are actually 6+ holes that need to be done... and I'm not sure it could be done without hitting a water jacket... And you still don't have the notches for the injectors... Not worth the machine work IMHO, Eric Cline just picked up a complete head/injection for ~$300

Here are the different bolt patterns: (Top is 3FE, bottom is 2F)

 

[cruiseroutfit]

so I could have a late model 2F head or a 3F head machined to work with the domed pistons??? do you know more specific info on what exactly the kid had done??

I really appreciate the info.

JP

The chambers were opened up enough to clear the dome piston... all by hand may I add... It was done using an air powered tool and a "porting & polishing" style method, not for rookies

But then you still need the injector notches... And I havn't looked to closely at those...

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

Thanks for the info. kurt, you really help clear up my questions. I still may attempt this, if you find out about those injector notches let me know or if you come across a 2F head that came that way from the factory.

Okay one last question for you, would it be possible to have a 3F head machined to fit the domed pistons also, as was done with the 2F head???

Thanks
JP

 

[3_puppies]

hijack... what year are the domed pistons and flat pistons used?

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

I believe, the flat pistons started with either the 80 or 81 year model.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Okay one last question for you, would it be possible to have a 3F head machined to fit the domed pistons also, as was done with the 2F head???

I would assume so, but not worth the trouble IMHO...

 

[CruisinGA]

Read this link: http://www.menet.umn.edu/~vandeven/turbo2f.htm

That is how you inject a 2F....


In my opinion based on limited knowledge, the 2F needs a turbo, not a supercharger. Not enough horsepower in NA form to make a supercharger work well.

Garrett T3/T04 hybrid. Give it a search, there have been many threads.


It also seems to me that using an adapter and running GM fuel injection with a standalone computer may be better than trying to make the 3FE injection (which is not all that great-nor easy to tune) work on a 2F.

 

[ClemsonCruiser]

That's a cool link bailey..... that guy did a hell of a job.

As for the turbo, that was my original thinking, but the problem is the real boost comes in so late since 2F's spin at such a lower rpm, you don't really feel the power until 2500-3000rpm. I was hoping to go with a supercharger because they boost quicker than a turbo, which would be better in the case of a cruiser. Also they make super chargers that have self contained oil and cooling units, so you don't have to fabricate oiling and cooling lines like you would with a turbo. the supercharger only requires that you fab. a mounting bracket to bolt to the engine, instead of an eleborate exhaust system such as the one in the link above. So my understanding is the supercharger is a simpler beast to install and it produces boost faster, there is no lag time since it is belt driven and not exhaust, also it doesn't produce near as much heat. The only down side I know of it that the boost is usually limted to 6 to 9psi, we as turbos can obtain much higher numbers. with the 2F though 6psi is plenty of boost, should net somewhere in the range of 30 to 40% increase in power. I am no expert on this matter by any means, I speak mainly off of what I have read and what little real experience I have with turbos...

Thanks for the help
JP