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22R and 33s... Regear? Marlin Crawler? (1 Viewer)
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ntsqd
technerd
This is the kit that I used to install some take-off 63's: 63" leaf spring hanger Kit | Leaf Spring Products | WFOConcepts.com Made my own spring plates for a U-Bolt Flip, I *think* those are Mazda OLL's:
So roughly $150 and some time to get the 63's under the truck.
So roughly $150 and some time to get the 63's under the truck.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
This was my daily in college:
1985 4Runner, 22RE, 5-spd, 4.88 gears, Loc-Rite rear, 33x10.50 BFGs...
Damn I miss that truck!
Yes you do miss that truck!!
I ran 5.29s with 35” X-Terrains and 22RE in my old white truck. Gearing was spot on, and I commuted 45 miles to work up some big hills in the coast mtns of BC. (Yes, I too never should have sold it! I’m beginning to wish I had kept ALL 50+ vehicles I’ve owned in my life. So many would be worth a lot of money now!)
I feel like my lil RE runs damn good on these 31s, heck the fronts are darn near 32s.
I'm curious about this thread bc I'm thinking about slapping 33s on with no regear after I paint it. If it runs decent with 31.9 up front, how much can a 33 hurt it???
Saying all this from inexperience, haha
I'm curious about this thread bc I'm thinking about slapping 33s on with no regear after I paint it. If it runs decent with 31.9 up front, how much can a 33 hurt it???
Saying all this from inexperience, haha
BlueCruiser84
SILVER Star
Front tire doesn’t really affect on road gearing feel. But you’re right, it’s all opinion based. You might think it drives great with 33s and stock gears. Another guy might think it’s “undrivable”. Mount some 33s and run ‘em - see if you like it.
I second ntqsd....4 bangers are designed to live at 3k rpm+
I had a '97 honda CRV with a 4 banger that routinely saw 4-5000rpm fully loaded in third gear up some of the steepest BC highways doing 70-75mph. I held it there with complete disregard for the RPM of the engine in 3rd gear with the torque converter locked up because thats how fast I wanted to go.That motor had 388,000km on it and it didnt burn oil, use oil, or make any noise. It was standard practice to spin that engine at 4k all day in 3rd rather than letting it hunt around between 3rd, 4th, and torque converer lock up.
My 22re pick up on 35's and 5.29's with a .085 overdrive is probably 5-8% lower ratio than stock ratio based on my speedo is fast and the odo reads more distance than I travelled. Truck feels a bit spirited but would be an absolute dog on 4.88's. Truck also has DOM tube bumper and tube sliders and flat deck... so theres a bit of extra weight.
3k in 4th the truck is doing probably 58mph. 5th is useless unless on a virtually flat highway and going fast enough to have it at 2800+ rpm. I'd rather let the motor spin at 3300 all day in 4th before I let it bog out in 5th at 2800rpm. If you can't chop the throttle and accelerate from the RPM you're cruising at, then IMO the cruising RPM is too low. The only replacement for displacement is RPM... halve the displacement, double the RPM. Torque is damn near non existent in 4 banger like it is available with v8 that can lug along at 2k RPM.
Engine runs all day at 3k+ rpm. If it aint idling, its at 3k+ rpm. I shift it at 4k the majority of times, and if on a hill 1st and second get shifted at 4500-5k.
4 bangers are designed to spin at 3000rpm+ at any time theyre not idling.
I had a '97 honda CRV with a 4 banger that routinely saw 4-5000rpm fully loaded in third gear up some of the steepest BC highways doing 70-75mph. I held it there with complete disregard for the RPM of the engine in 3rd gear with the torque converter locked up because thats how fast I wanted to go.That motor had 388,000km on it and it didnt burn oil, use oil, or make any noise. It was standard practice to spin that engine at 4k all day in 3rd rather than letting it hunt around between 3rd, 4th, and torque converer lock up.
My 22re pick up on 35's and 5.29's with a .085 overdrive is probably 5-8% lower ratio than stock ratio based on my speedo is fast and the odo reads more distance than I travelled. Truck feels a bit spirited but would be an absolute dog on 4.88's. Truck also has DOM tube bumper and tube sliders and flat deck... so theres a bit of extra weight.
3k in 4th the truck is doing probably 58mph. 5th is useless unless on a virtually flat highway and going fast enough to have it at 2800+ rpm. I'd rather let the motor spin at 3300 all day in 4th before I let it bog out in 5th at 2800rpm. If you can't chop the throttle and accelerate from the RPM you're cruising at, then IMO the cruising RPM is too low. The only replacement for displacement is RPM... halve the displacement, double the RPM. Torque is damn near non existent in 4 banger like it is available with v8 that can lug along at 2k RPM.
Engine runs all day at 3k+ rpm. If it aint idling, its at 3k+ rpm. I shift it at 4k the majority of times, and if on a hill 1st and second get shifted at 4500-5k.
4 bangers are designed to spin at 3000rpm+ at any time theyre not idling.
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To add some more driving characteristics of a slightly lower gear ratio than stock and how it affects the "stock" rpm curve, if I'm cruising along doing the speed limit at 35mph 3rd gear my rpm is 2600 or so with plenty enough jam to chop the throttle and pull a little "in town" hill. So, still not "screaming" by any means just cruising along at 35mph. I'll cruise it at 3-3200rpm in 3rd all day in town(albeit speeding most of the time) before I grab 4th and lug it at 2200ish or so for the same speed. I'm comfortable with spinning the motor at 3 or 4k ALL day, every day, and not losing sleep over it. Just make sure your exhaust is TIGHT, otherwise you'll wanna blow your brains out.
Another characteristic I prefer is that I can lug out of 2nd better when I have to slow down for a 3rd to second shift to turn onto a residential street, slow up to an intersection for a yield, or get the green at an intersection before coming to a full stop for 1st gear. If the gear was any higher, then 2nd gear would be way too low in the RPM band(it's already at 16-1800 when I'm doing these sorts of things) and it'd be a straight all day lug fest if I didn't have an extra 1-200 rpm there.
It's standard practice to regear cars with stock tires for better gearing leverage and it puts you in the power sooner and more often. I wouldn't recommend 4:56's and 33's to anyone with a 4 banger, nor would I recommend 4.88's for 35's. At the absolute most with 4.88 and 33's you'd be 10% lower than stock and that's only 100rpm for every 1000 the engine used to spin. (not even sure if you'd be lower, as I don't know what stock gear or tire size you have) but we could figure that out.
As far as a doubler goes.... they're invaluable. I wouldn't trade a single set of 2.28's for a 4.7 set... most of the time 4.7 is way too low if that's your only low range. I'd do what I had to do to get the money for dual 2.28's ...unless I lived somewhere that was straight technical rock crawling trails all day, I wouldn't give up the 2.28 set...ever. I particularly enjoy the 2wd low range. I also like having the option to stack dual 2.28's for when a ultra low 5.1 is really necessary.
Another characteristic I prefer is that I can lug out of 2nd better when I have to slow down for a 3rd to second shift to turn onto a residential street, slow up to an intersection for a yield, or get the green at an intersection before coming to a full stop for 1st gear. If the gear was any higher, then 2nd gear would be way too low in the RPM band(it's already at 16-1800 when I'm doing these sorts of things) and it'd be a straight all day lug fest if I didn't have an extra 1-200 rpm there.
It's standard practice to regear cars with stock tires for better gearing leverage and it puts you in the power sooner and more often. I wouldn't recommend 4:56's and 33's to anyone with a 4 banger, nor would I recommend 4.88's for 35's. At the absolute most with 4.88 and 33's you'd be 10% lower than stock and that's only 100rpm for every 1000 the engine used to spin. (not even sure if you'd be lower, as I don't know what stock gear or tire size you have) but we could figure that out.
As far as a doubler goes.... they're invaluable. I wouldn't trade a single set of 2.28's for a 4.7 set... most of the time 4.7 is way too low if that's your only low range. I'd do what I had to do to get the money for dual 2.28's ...unless I lived somewhere that was straight technical rock crawling trails all day, I wouldn't give up the 2.28 set...ever. I particularly enjoy the 2wd low range. I also like having the option to stack dual 2.28's for when a ultra low 5.1 is really necessary.
Gotta ask.. what was the other of the top three suspension mods??
ntsqd
technerd
Bilstein shocks and cross-over steering, which is NOT easy to do with only OME front springs in a LA frame. I had to fabricate the steering arm. Due to the difference in frame shape I'll guess it's nearly impossible to do with an SAS'd IFS frame.
The front Bils were only 5100's in All-Pro hoops. The rears were 275/78 valved 7100 RR's. The std 5100/7100 valving for leaf springs (255/70) is not enough damping for the GM 63's, they have too little internal friction & don't self-damp as much as 'normal' leaf springs. It was long my intent to upgrade the front's to 7100 RR's, but I never got to that.
Early in the steering arm development, I have no pic of the finished arm:
I ultimately ended up shortening the height of the arm and turning the taper back over so that the TRE (those are 'Marlinks') entered from the top. To do that I had to mill off a bunch of that arm and make and weld on a whole new top piece.
How I did the 63's and 7100's:
If I ever end up with another LA truck it will be radius arms or links and coil springs. Working around those leafs was a pain.
The front Bils were only 5100's in All-Pro hoops. The rears were 275/78 valved 7100 RR's. The std 5100/7100 valving for leaf springs (255/70) is not enough damping for the GM 63's, they have too little internal friction & don't self-damp as much as 'normal' leaf springs. It was long my intent to upgrade the front's to 7100 RR's, but I never got to that.
Early in the steering arm development, I have no pic of the finished arm:
I ultimately ended up shortening the height of the arm and turning the taper back over so that the TRE (those are 'Marlinks') entered from the top. To do that I had to mill off a bunch of that arm and make and weld on a whole new top piece.
How I did the 63's and 7100's:
If I ever end up with another LA truck it will be radius arms or links and coil springs. Working around those leafs was a pain.
What is an LA frame?
My truck has standard and well used 5100's over 63's in an '85 pick up. By well used I mean they were on the front end for around 7 years while junk Rancho's occupied the rear. I bought a new set of 5100's, used the new 5100's for the front and swapped the old front bilsteins to the rear. They still felt good by hand pushing on the ground, rebounded roughly at half speed compared to the new ones. equal force to compress compared to the new set. The rancho's I took off the rear were absolutely junk.... They didn't rebound by themselves, but resisted rebound. Compression was stiff as well.
Anyways, where I'm going with this. With the rancho's and old bilsteins upfront when going over a demanding washboard asphalt road, it feels like my spine is rattling.... almost like the rear suspension skips along and it just vibrates into the seat. On a single bump, it feels very good and responsive. The front on all pro lift springs reacts fine in this washboard scenario...smooth as can be.
When I swapped the new bilsteins into the front and replaced rear rancho's with the well used front bilsteins(installed new shock bushings upon swap), over a washboardy intersection the front got better, smoother, felt tighter, but wouldn't say it was so drastic the shocks needed to be replaced. I just decided the front end was more important that's why I put the new ones up front. The rear got tons better on a single bump. Overall the truck felt much more controlled when hitting a dip/bump at speed while stuffing it through a corner. When hitting a rough section of road, the rattling spine/seat hammering feeling is still there.
FWIW, Rear spring bushings have less than 3k miles on them... just standard rubber replacements.
Does this sound like a valving issue with the shock?
My truck has standard and well used 5100's over 63's in an '85 pick up. By well used I mean they were on the front end for around 7 years while junk Rancho's occupied the rear. I bought a new set of 5100's, used the new 5100's for the front and swapped the old front bilsteins to the rear. They still felt good by hand pushing on the ground, rebounded roughly at half speed compared to the new ones. equal force to compress compared to the new set. The rancho's I took off the rear were absolutely junk.... They didn't rebound by themselves, but resisted rebound. Compression was stiff as well.
Anyways, where I'm going with this. With the rancho's and old bilsteins upfront when going over a demanding washboard asphalt road, it feels like my spine is rattling.... almost like the rear suspension skips along and it just vibrates into the seat. On a single bump, it feels very good and responsive. The front on all pro lift springs reacts fine in this washboard scenario...smooth as can be.
When I swapped the new bilsteins into the front and replaced rear rancho's with the well used front bilsteins(installed new shock bushings upon swap), over a washboardy intersection the front got better, smoother, felt tighter, but wouldn't say it was so drastic the shocks needed to be replaced. I just decided the front end was more important that's why I put the new ones up front. The rear got tons better on a single bump. Overall the truck felt much more controlled when hitting a dip/bump at speed while stuffing it through a corner. When hitting a rough section of road, the rattling spine/seat hammering feeling is still there.
FWIW, Rear spring bushings have less than 3k miles on them... just standard rubber replacements.
Does this sound like a valving issue with the shock?
ntsqd
technerd
LA = Live Axle
Could be you need the uprated damping in the rear. Would not surprise me at all. Can order 7100's with that damping already in them, don't know if 5100's can be ordered that way or not.
In Patch (my '84 Xcab) most wash-board was smooth by 40 mph, and it was no problem staying in control at that or higher speeds. The Rauncho's that my truck came to me with would go 40 on a wash-board, but it was BRUTAL. I think my record was somewhere around 85 mph when I finally had Patch sorted out, but that was a ~4 lanes wide gravel super-highway in the middle of a Western desert. I'm not saying that to brag so much as to give a frame of reference. My family has long called wash-boards "4-40 Roads", you either go 4 mph or you go 40 mph. I'll take 40 any day, its much more fun.
BTW, I don't use urethane bushings for anything unless no other choice.
Could be you need the uprated damping in the rear. Would not surprise me at all. Can order 7100's with that damping already in them, don't know if 5100's can be ordered that way or not.
In Patch (my '84 Xcab) most wash-board was smooth by 40 mph, and it was no problem staying in control at that or higher speeds. The Rauncho's that my truck came to me with would go 40 on a wash-board, but it was BRUTAL. I think my record was somewhere around 85 mph when I finally had Patch sorted out, but that was a ~4 lanes wide gravel super-highway in the middle of a Western desert. I'm not saying that to brag so much as to give a frame of reference. My family has long called wash-boards "4-40 Roads", you either go 4 mph or you go 40 mph. I'll take 40 any day, its much more fun.
BTW, I don't use urethane bushings for anything unless no other choice.
- Thread starter
- #52
Thanks @toyotaboy80 for asking and @ntsqd for answering. I was afraid I had some overpriced, snobby, superficial, mostly plastic frame
Enjoying following your T-Truck build.
RE: lockers: I'd reconsider the budget and put the E-locker on both ends. But if you're trying to save money, the auto locker should go in the rear instead of the front. Auto lockers can stay hooked up at inopportune times.
Gearing- I doubt you will do much hwy driving and since this is a purpose built fun rig and you'll be putting around in it most times; get the 4.88s.
The crawl box would be great for out west, but rarely needed here. That thing is going to be so Sano when you get done with it, that you prob won't wheel it in places where you'd need the crawl box anyway.
This gearing calculator is pretty cool, allows you to compare different ratios side by side: Gear Calculator
RE: lockers: I'd reconsider the budget and put the E-locker on both ends. But if you're trying to save money, the auto locker should go in the rear instead of the front. Auto lockers can stay hooked up at inopportune times.
Gearing- I doubt you will do much hwy driving and since this is a purpose built fun rig and you'll be putting around in it most times; get the 4.88s.
The crawl box would be great for out west, but rarely needed here. That thing is going to be so Sano when you get done with it, that you prob won't wheel it in places where you'd need the crawl box anyway.
This gearing calculator is pretty cool, allows you to compare different ratios side by side: Gear Calculator
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- #55
double double post
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- #56
@abuck99 oh sure, just 'cause you know where I live and we've 'wheeled together, you think you know... well... yeah... you're right Lifted, locked on 33s and yep... the little truck will really only see mild trails. Nothing out west. And, pretty mild trails around here. My plan is to build it to handle 3s (on that 1-5 scale) and only do 2s. Like, nothing more than this:
(Following Dugan in my 100)
I agree - the crawl box may be overkill. I'll definitely play for a while without it and see if it falls into the "nice to have" or "really gotta get one" category.
The gearing... yeah, seems like the consensus is in favor of 4.88s. Here's the thing - I may have a killer deal on that Harrop, Aussie, 4.56 package. I'll see if the 4.88s kills the deal.
Lifted, locked on 33s and yep... the little truck will really only see mild trails. Nothing out west. And, pretty mild trails around here. My plan is to build it to handle 3s (on that 1-5 scale) and only do 2s. Like, nothing more than this:(Following Dugan in my 100)
I agree - the crawl box may be overkill. I'll definitely play for a while without it and see if it falls into the "nice to have" or "really gotta get one" category.
The gearing... yeah, seems like the consensus is in favor of 4.88s. Here's the thing - I may have a killer deal on that Harrop, Aussie, 4.56 package. I'll see if the 4.88s kills the deal.
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- Thread starter
- #57
Really wish it were possible to delete a post.
Weird... I don't get the "Delete" option/button
Weird... I don't get the "Delete" option/button
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ntsqd
technerd
I'd go TruTrac before I'd go with a Detroit. Then again, I just did exactly that for the Blanc-Oh! OJB. Budget isn't there for an ARB or I'd have gone that way as it is my first choice. Drove a Detroit for nearly 25 years and have NO desire to repeat that.
I suspect, as said, it's a silver star option. If you want a post deleted just PM one of the mods and we can do that for you. All we need is the thread title and the post #.
Lol 4-40 roads. I drive 4 on true washboard. Not enough room for correction around here on our windy FSR's...gonna be in the nearest tree or down the embankment shiny side down.
But even doing 40 through a washboard intersection is just spine rattle rough... doesnt feel like the truck loses any control.
What does the uprated valving do? Make the shock stiffer and rebound faster?
What about doubling up twin stand 5100's on the rear? Or will that just double the compressions and make rebound twice as slow?
@abuck99 oh sure, just 'cause you know where I live and we've 'wheeled together, you think you know... well... yeah... you're right
(Following Dugan in my 100)
View attachment 2156233
I agree - the crawl box may be overkill. I'll definitely play for a while without it and see if it falls into the "nice to have" or "really gotta get one" category.
The gearing... yeah, seems like the consensus is in favor of 4.88s. Here's the thing - I may have a killer deal on that Harrop, Aussie, 4.56 package. I'll see if the 4.88s kills the deal.
Auto trans and low range is probably extremely forgiving. For the pictured terrain in a manual truck I'd be in double low. Would otherwise be doing a ton of clutch manipulation on a trail like that. Can always grab the next gear up... with a manual and clutch its hard to go slower than engine rpm combined with the gear ratio...beyond that its alot of working the clutch.
You can change between low/hi on the reduction box as long as youre stopped and it is quick and efortless/butter smooth. I use the hi/low box a lot. Really allows for pretty controlled driving and next to zero clutch abuse.
