2024 GX/Prado Release and Discussion

[Specialeyes]

Are you sure you've driven one with kdss? It's a huge change in vehicle dynamics. It's like comparing driving f250 vs f150.

I’ve not driven a 4Runner with KDSS. I was trying to make a comparison of my non-kdss 4Runner vs a GX460 and my now 200 series which both have it. Probably not the best as all 3 vehicles handle and drive differently.

 

[M1911]

I’ve not driven a 4Runner with KDSS. I was trying to make a comparison of my non-kdss 4Runner vs a GX460 and my now 200 series which both have it. Probably not the best as all 3 vehicles handle and drive differently.

My 4Runner had XREAS, not KDSS, so I don’t have a direct comparison.

 

[Phillyd2]

I'm not sure how. Ekdss just means it's electric shutter valves instead of the floating ball valves used in the lc200. It's still a hydraulic system. And the 4runner version has had electric valves since 2010 in the central control box. They've never been an issue.

The big improvement in ekdss is not borrowing the valves from the j150. It's having two front cylinders instead of one. More travel and the ability to flow fluid with less restriction between the two front cylinders so it can have move faster. The original kdss only worked at very low speed because of fluid restriction and heat buildup. New version can be in the open position at higher speeds. But that's relative, it's still pretty limited as far as high speed use. However, it's better at low speed. So it's a trade off.

Kdss = more articulation, better load distribution, and better body control off camber

Sway disconnect = better comfort at speed above 10mph.

Ahh, so I assumed (that it was all electric) incorrectly. Thanks.

 

[M1911]

3 months from actual production isn't that long.

We got those videos with the GX 550

So tell me what's the difference?

Unless they think GX videos are enough?

US release is Spring of 2024, so more like 9 months away.

 

[Brown98LC]

US release is Spring of 2024, so more like 9 months away.

They are all starting production In November/December, regardless of release time. That's what the tech info says anyway. If a delay happens who knows.

So that's why I was curious because we seem to have gotten more ''engineer tech'' videos with he GX 550 even though at time of launch ti was almost a year away from market sale.

 

[Brown98LC]

Enjoy guys
forbidden fruit

 

[Brown98LC]

This video has a good look at the frame of the 250

 

[Brown98LC]

different type of 250 LC/Prado headlights

The middle one looks like its for the most basic version that will be sold in some markets.

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

So here is my quandary. There will be a 2025 4Runner. Unless it is just completely retargeted for a different market and class, it will bump straight into the LC250. It should have a Trailhunter and TRD-Pro model similarly equipped to the Tacoma (i.e. IForce Max 4cyl, Swaybar disconnect, rear locker, upgraded shocks, etc). The new Tacoma Trailhunter is estimated to be $48,000 and the TRD-Pro $50,000. Currently the 4Runners are about $7k more than a Tacoma. So I estimate the 4Runner Trailhunter will be $55k and the TRD-Pro would be $57k (more likely $60k). The Trailhunter would be the same price as the 1958 and better equipped. The TRD-Pro would probably be priced at or below the Land Cruiser trim and arguably better equipped. This would, obviously, be a problem. The only solution I can see is Toyota having to push down the 4Runner and strip it of features. There is nothing about these new LC250s that would make me buy one over a similarly priced but better equipped 4Runner. Full Time 4WD is not enough.

 

[M1911]

So here is my quandary. There will be a 2025 4Runner. Unless it is just completely retargeted for a different market and class, it will bump straight into the LC250. It should have a Trailhunter and TRD-Pro model similarly equipped to the Tacoma (i.e. IForce Max 4cyl, Swaybar disconnect, rear locker, upgraded shocks, etc). The new Tacoma Trailhunter is estimated to be $48,000 and the TRD-Pro $50,000. Currently the 4Runners are about $7k more than a Tacoma. So I estimate the 4Runner Trailhunter will be $55k and the TRD-Pro would be $57k (more likely $60k). The Trailhunter would be the same price as the 1958 and better equipped. The TRD-Pro would probably be priced at or below the Land Cruiser trim and arguably better equipped. This would, obviously, be a problem. The only solution I can see is Toyota having to push down the 4Runner and strip it of features. There is nothing about these new LC250s that would make me buy one over a similarly priced but better equipped 4Runner. Full Time 4WD is not enough.

That's fair. For me in the snowy Northeast, I much prefer full-time 4WD, but different folks have different priorities.

 

[TheRealDeal124]

It could've been WAY worse. Not a full size, but more narrow for actual trail use. The only thing I don't like about it is the engine and new technology. Made in Japan too. They could've EASILY made this in the USA or Mexico. I love how it's a global vehicle and not just for us. Means it will have to be reliable.

 

[Brown98LC]

 

[on the rocks]

Tires size on the stage of the reveal:

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

They could've EASILY made this in the USA or Mexico.

I have a bad feeling that is the fate of the 4Runner.

 

[malden]

They are basically hand built so limited production. The people who need them — mining companies in Australia and folks who spend a lot of time in the Outback — really want them.

But for the average folks here on Ih8mud who claim to want one, I think they would change their mind if they actually drive one. The NVH on the 70 series is horrid. The interior is cramped. It has all the disadvantages of a solid front axle during daily driving. The front track width is wider than the rear, resulting in squirrelly handling in snow and sand. The solutions to that range from janky (different offset rear wheels) to good but outrageously expensive (aftermarket rear axle).

If you spend a ton of time off-road, then yes, you might like a 70 series. But most of us spend 95% of our time on pavement and the 70 series is far worse on pavement than a 200 or the new 250 or a 4Runner, etc.

So I stand by my statement — US enthusiasts who long for the 70 series simply want it because it is forbidden fruit. If they actually drove it, most of them would hate it.

The 70 Series has the romantic appeal of overlanding in the Outback or Africa. But most of us spend our days commuting to work in stop and go traffic, dropping the kids off at school, or going to the grocery store. For all of those everyday activities, any modern Toyota truck is a better choice than a 70 series.

The fact that Toyota has released the FJ70 into Japan indicates that they think there is a market for urban/suburban drivers there. Should be interesting to follow the sales results. And sales results for INEOS will also bring clarity as to the actual demand for a FJ70 or FJ70 like vehicle. INEOS has been able to design a 4x4 that meets US standards from the getgo and that is an advantage over Toyota. But if the Grenadier sells and is well received, it would bolster an argument for a US FJ70 (or something very much like it.)


While I don’t suppose a FJ70 is best suited to life in Manhattan, though the UES is crawling with Range Rovers, Broncos and Wranglers, it is very well suited for Suburban drivers who want to “go places” on the weekends. That being said, the FJ70 shines brightest in use by large property owners, farmers, fruit growers, people in rural work environments, the environment where the FJ70, Defender and others were designed and built to thrive. I get the feeling you have rural environments like that somewhere tucked away in the USA? A few square miles here or there?

Not a lot of those rural folk spend their days on internet forums, so there is a disproportionate voice on the Net from Urbanites in favor of more tame Suburban vehicles. I think that imbalance is perfectly fine, but do realize that it is a virtual imbalance and does not disprove the existence of other potential realities.

If any one of you love the roar of an air cooled 911, the rush of a BMW flat twin, the growl of any exotic sports car, or the raucous fun of a Harley, trust me, you have nothing to fear from the NVH of an FJ70. It is loud and you will love it. It is a kick in the arse to drive! I am shouting now! But then again I have the advantage of having spent time in the same area code, city, nation, continent and universe as a modern FJ70, have driven one for months and may have to own one soon.

Frank speaking, had the LC250 been the vehicle some of us hoped for, we would not be having this FJ70 conversation at all.

 

[M1911]

It could've been WAY worse. Not a full size, but more narrow for actual trail use. The only thing I don't like about it is the engine and new technology. Made in Japan too. They could've EASILY made this in the USA or Mexico. I love how it's a global vehicle and not just for us. Means it will have to be reliable.

Unfortunately, it isn’t narrower. The fender flares make it the same width as the 200. The interior is narrower than a 200, so less room on the inside.

 

[Jetboy]

I’ve not driven a 4Runner with KDSS. I was trying to make a comparison of my non-kdss 4Runner vs a GX460 and my now 200 series which both have it. Probably not the best as all 3 vehicles handle and drive differently.

I see. I think I misread your comment. The GX is hard to compare because it's quite heavy and needs more body control - particularly with the air suspension. And the steering is heavy. It feels more isolated and whatever the opposite of sporty is. It would probably have pretty poor driving dynamics without KDSS. I think it would be a hard sell on a GX without it. On the 4Runner it really is a night and day difference back to back. I don't recall the exact values, but it's something like twice the sway bar spring rate. It really shines in situations like having the roof rack loaded up. The LC200 tends to be softer all around because it uses a pretty different KDSS system that has a softer sway bar than the 4Runner/GX/Prado version. I think the LC200 may also have softer coil springs.

The biggest downside to KDSS is that it's really harsh in the mid speed range. On the 10-20mph trails, it's jarring. IMO the sway bar is too big for the 4Runner weight. I've never understood is why Toyota didn't offer a KDSS option with a smaller diameter sway bar. Especially in the TRD Pro model.

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

That being said, the FJ70 shines brightest in use by large property owners, farmers, fruit growers, people in rural work environments, the environment where the FJ70, Defender and others were designed and built to thrive. I get the feeling you have rural environments like that somewhere tucked away in the USA? A few square miles here or there?

We do have those areas. The people who live there buy millions of pick up trucks and are probably pretty satisfied and not holding their breath for a 70 series.

 

[TheRealDeal124]

Unfortunately, it isn’t narrower. The fender flares make it the same width as the 200. The interior is narrower than a 200, so less room on the inside.

I wonder what these look like without fenders.

 

[M1911]

The fact that Toyota has released the FJ70 into Japan indicates that they think there is a market for urban/suburban drivers there. Should be interesting to follow the sales results. And sales results for INEOS will also bring clarity as to the actual demand for a FJ70 or FJ70 like vehicle. INEOS has been able to design a 4x4 that meets US standards from the getgo and that is an advantage over Toyota. But if the Grenadier sells and is well received, it would bolster an argument for a US FJ70 (or something very much like it.)

The INEOS was designed in the 2020s to meet current regulations. The 70 Series was designed in the 1970s. Could Toyota redesign the 70 to meet current regulations? Yes, but it would take a complete redesign and Toyota hasn’t done a complete redesign of the 70 since it started building them in the late ‘70s.

We won’t get a 70 Series in the US. Not going to happen.

The INEOS is going to be a niche vehicle. We will see how they do. I suspect that like most new auto manufacturers that they will have a very tough time building reliable vehicles and remaining solvent. It would not surprise me at all if after 5 years the billionaire owner gets tired of it all and they go bust. Time will tell.