2024 GX/Prado Release and Discussion

[Specialeyes]

Are you a market analyst? Is Toyota suffering? They cant make enough 4Runners and that is based on a platform that was designed and released in 2003.

Just because Toyota marking sucks, doesnt mean their stuff doesnt sell. They just dont connect with the social media generation who wants the likes on Instagram.

Who said anything about suffering? I’m fully aware they have no problem selling cars and trucks. Last year they were ranked #1 globally and #2 in the U.S. in units sold. You can sell plenty of boring cars and trucks while simultaneously offering little to nothing for enthusiasts to be excited about.

Your comment about the 4Runner just solidifies my point. That one of the their most popular offerings here in the US is an old suv. Nothing wrong with that, hell I drive one myself. But what’s on the horizon to get excited about and tempt me to trade that 4R in? If I were to buy something else today it would be either a GX or a LC… two more older (albeit better) vehicles than the 4R.

 

[04UZJ100]

Who said anything about suffering? I’m fully aware they have no problem selling cars and trucks. Last year they were ranked #1 globally and #2 in the U.S. in units sold. You can sell plenty of boring cars and trucks while simultaneously offering little to nothing for enthusiasts to be excited about.

Your comment about the 4Runner just solidifies my point. That one of the their most popular offerings here in the US is an old suv. Nothing wrong with that, hell I drive one myself. But what’s on the horizon to get excited about and tempt me to trade that 4R in? If I were to buy something else today it would be either a GX or a LC… two more older (albeit better) vehicles than the 4R.

Dunno - you said their offerings were Luke Warm but dealers cant keep them on their lot........

 

[greynolds]

The more I read these comments the more I realize that people seem to want something like an Ineos with a Toyota powertrain. Wouldn’t that be something.

That would be awesome, but I suspect we aren't going to get it .

 

[cruiseroutfit]

 

[cruiserdan]

Toyota doesnt give a f*** about the 3 people who would buy a diesel/70 series stateside.

Hey now... It's more like 35.

 

[04UZJ100]

Hey now... It's more like 35.

35 that want one. 3 that would up

 

[Jetboy]

Toyota has done pretty poorly in new product development recently in the BOF models. A meaningful segment of buyers are expecting successive generations of products from Toyota to get worse than the outgoing model. And arguably for good reason. The 4th gen 4Runner had better powertrain options than the 5th gen. Let's not forget that Toyota actually tried to sell a 4800lb suv with a 157hp 4cyl. And that wasn't very long ago. The Tacoma powertrain arguably got worse from Gen 2 to 3. The new Tundra I think improved in a lot of ways, but also took steps back in others - smaller cabin, smaller bed, but longer body overall, no tow hooks, etc. The Sequoia got significantly worse in job number 1 for the class - cargo space.

Yes the 4Runner sells okay if you compare to past years sales. It's now incrementally more than it was 20 years ago. So that's good. But it's doing very poorly compared to its closest competitors over the last decade. It's not the bright spot Toyota fans think it is. Over the past 20 years, Jeep GC sales went from 205k to 265k. Wrangler went from 70k to 205k. 4Runner went from 110k to 140k. A modern 4Runner should be selling around 200k consistent with its closest competitor on both sides. And it's reasonable to think that a modernized family wagon SUV and offroad SUV should combine for 300K+. If we add in the GX and LX, it still doesn't get to 200k. Toyota could sell a lot more with a modern powertrain. And Toyota could have done that a long time ago. Even just an 8AT would have helped significantly. Painting the door handles black and recycling the "trail" name again isn't good enough. And obviously the LC200 sold so poorly that it was discontinued - IMO that's entirely the result of overpricing and overpackaging.

For a new model, everyone wants something different. Some of us would love a LC40 remake. Some would love a LC300. And some would prefer an LC70. I think there's a market for any of those options that would generate significant incremental new sales and revenue. OTOH - I don't think an LC70 style body dropped on a 4Runner that's the same size will move the needle. Especially with a 4cyl powertrain. Will a few sell? Sure. Will it draw new customers to Toyota? - I'd say no. I don't see it working very well unless it offers something materially different.

I hope I'm wrong on this and the new LC is something that's not just a 70 series styling on a 4Runner with 31" dunlop tires for $60k. We'll find out in a few months.

 

[04UZJ100]

Toyota has done pretty poorly in new product development recently in the BOF models. A meaningful segment of buyers are expecting successive generations of products from Toyota to get worse than the outgoing model. And arguably for good reason. The 4th gen 4Runner had better powertrain options than the 5th gen. Let's not forget that Toyota actually tried to sell a 4800lb suv with a 157hp 4cyl. And that wasn't very long ago. The Tacoma powertrain arguably got worse from Gen 2 to 3. The new Tundra I think improved in a lot of ways, but also took steps back in others - smaller cabin, smaller bed, but longer body overall, no tow hooks, etc. The Sequoia got significantly worse in job number 1 for the class - cargo space.

Yes the 4Runner sells okay if you compare to past years sales. It's now incrementally more than it was 20 years ago. So that's good. But it's doing very poorly compared to its closest competitors over the last decade. It's not the bright spot Toyota fans think it is. Over the past 20 years, Jeep GC sales went from 205k to 265k. Wrangler went from 70k to 205k. 4Runner went from 110k to 140k. A modern 4Runner should be selling around 200k consistent with its closest competitor on both sides. And it's reasonable to think that a modernized family wagon SUV and offroad SUV should combine for 300K+. If we add in the GX and LX, it still doesn't get to 200k. Toyota could sell a lot more with a modern powertrain. And Toyota could have done that a long time ago. Even just an 8AT would have helped significantly. Painting the door handles black and recycling the "trail" name again isn't good enough. And obviously the LC200 sold so poorly that it was discontinued - IMO that's entirely the result of overpricing and overpackaging.

For a new model, everyone wants something different. Some of us would love a LC40 remake. Some would love a LC300. And some would prefer an LC70. I think there's a market for any of those options that would generate significant incremental new sales and revenue. OTOH - I don't think an LC70 style body dropped on a 4Runner that's the same size will move the needle. Especially with a 4cyl powertrain. Will a few sell? Sure. Will it draw new customers to Toyota? - I'd say no. I don't see it working very well unless it offers something materially different.

I hope I'm wrong on this and the new LC is something that's not just a 70 series styling on a 4Runner with 31" dunlop tires for $60k. We'll find out in a few months.

I stopped after the first sentence.

What data do you have to support that?

 

[Jetboy]

I stopped after the first sentence.

What data do you have to support that?

You can read past the first sentence to find out.

 

[04UZJ100]

You can read past the first sentence to find out.

I just see lots of generalizations.

 

[greynolds]

Good grief. It doesn't exactly take a genius to see that Toyota has made some seemingly weird decisions lately. The 3rd row and cargo space issues with the new Sequoia being an especially egregious decision. The fact that the dealers are still selling every vehicle they can get their hands on may be more of a statement of Toyota's reputation for quality than people being over the moon with everything about the new models. The fact that the shared platform is the main reason for the issues with the Sequoia doesn't make it OK - perhaps they blew it in some respects on the platform. And no, I don't have any detailed data to back up what I just wrote. It's my opinion.

 

[stonepa]

Good grief. It doesn't exactly take a genius to see that Toyota has made some seemingly weird decisions lately. The 3rd row and cargo space issues with the new Sequoia being an especially egregious decision. The fact that the dealers are still selling every vehicle they can get their hands on may be more of a statement of Toyota's reputation for quality than people being over the moon with everything about the new models. The fact that the shared platform is the main reason for the issues with the Sequoia doesn't make it OK - perhaps they blew it in some respects on the platform. And no, I don't have any detailed data to back up what I just wrote. It's my opinion.

I doubt most people have a clue that there is a space sucking battery in their soccer mobile Sequoia. For such a huge purchase, most are sold on tech and colors.

 

[Jetboy]

I just see lots of generalizations.

I gave specifics about each recent model. What are you looking for? The Tundra crewmax leg room shrank by 1.3 inches front 0.6" rear, the bed is 1.2" shorter, 1.3" less depth, 7.7" narrower. But truck overall length grew by 4.7 inches. So, the parts of the non-cab/bed parts grew by 7.8" in length, but no frunk? The TTv6 is an upgrade in many ways. It's a pretty good engine on paper, and in my limited time behind the wheel. Hybrid system presumably uses "MAX" ironically. It's only good for marginally improved 0-60 times. No inverter like Ford or Toyota's own Sienna. No material efficiency gains. Not sure what it maximizes.

2022 Sequoia cargo capacity was 120.1 cf. New one is 86.9 cf. (4Runner is 89.7). LX600 is even less at only 71cf (same a Rav4). If the next LC is even smaller - will it compete on cargo volume with the Corolla Cross? - It has 67 cf - only 4 cf less than the LX600. It's actually plausible that the LC will have less cargo capacity than a Corolla Cross.

The 4th gen 4R had v6 and v8 options along with factory superchargers for both. In 2003 the 4Runner was faster than the highest performance Porsche Cayenne model. In 2010 the next gen 4Runner came with an updated 1GR and a 157hp 4cyl with a 4 speed automatic. No supercharger options. The base vehicle weight increased roughly 400lbs. Significant downgrade in powertrain options.

Tacoma - if you haven't driven a 2GR taco, give it a try. The engine/trans combo works well in a RX350 that weights the same amount. Toyota's engine and trans tune is just really bad. They've tried to fix it a few times with software updates. OV tune makes it livable. The outgoing 1GR version was much nicer to drive. Newer v6 has slightly more hp, but it requires about 700rpms more to match output. Not sure if drum brakes needs to be addressed here.

It's reasonable to question the decision making pretty much across the board in the BOF side.

 

[04UZJ100]

I gave specifics about each recent model. What are you looking for? The Tundra crewmax leg room shrank by 1.3 inches front 0.6" rear, the bed is 1.2" shorter, 1.3" less depth, 7.7" narrower. But truck overall length grew by 4.7 inches. So, the parts of the non-cab/bed parts grew by 7.8" in length, but no frunk? The TTv6 is an upgrade in many ways. It's a pretty good engine on paper, and in my limited time behind the wheel. Hybrid system presumably uses "MAX" ironically. It's only good for marginally improved 0-60 times. No inverter like Ford or Toyota's own Sienna. No material efficiency gains. Not sure what it maximizes.

2022 Sequoia cargo capacity was 120.1 cf. New one is 86.9 cf. (4Runner is 89.7). LX600 is even less at only 71cf (same a Rav4). If the next LC is even smaller - will it compete on cargo volume with the Corolla Cross? - It has 67 cf - only 4 cf less than the LX600. It's actually plausible that the LC will have less cargo capacity than a Corolla Cross.

The 4th gen 4R had v6 and v8 options along with factory superchargers for both. In 2003 the 4Runner was faster than the highest performance Porsche Cayenne model. In 2010 the next gen 4Runner came with an updated 1GR and a 157hp 4cyl with a 4 speed automatic. No supercharger options. The base vehicle weight increased roughly 400lbs. Significant downgrade in powertrain options.

Tacoma - if you haven't driven a 2GR taco, give it a try. The engine/trans combo works well in a RX350 that weights the same amount. Toyota's engine and trans tune is just really bad. They've tried to fix it a few times with software updates. OV tune makes it livable. The outgoing 1GR version was much nicer to drive. Newer v6 one has slightly more hp, but it requires about 700rpms more to match output. Not sure if drum brakes needs to be addressed here.

It's reasonable to question the decision making pretty much across the board in the BOF side.

Those are specs. I want market data that corroborates what you're saying.

 

[Jetboy]

Those are specs. I want market data that corroborates what you're saying.

Market data that people have increased propensity to buy better products?

Edit: Year over year 4Runner sales dropped significantly in the last few months. Last month was over 50% drop, year to date is 44% less than last year. In February of 2023 Ford sold 2.5 times as many Broncos as 4Runners. It would be more if Ford wasn't capacity constrained.

 

[stonepa]

Market data that people have increased propensity to buy better products?

Edit: Year over year 4Runner sales dropped significantly in the last few months. Last month was over 50% drop, year to date is 44% less than last year. In February of 2023 Ford sold 2.5 times as many Broncos as 4Runners. It would be more if Ford wasn't capacity constrained.

I hope this is true. I hope everyone buys a Chevy. That will cut down the 1-2 year wait time for everything I want to buy.

 

[Jetboy]

I think the numbers are correct. It's probably not enough months to really know if it's a trend or not. GM is idling plants. So they're not buying Chevies.

 

[D21FJ60]

This thread is like a typical group of political avtivists that watch CNN or Fox News all day and do nothing but yell at the TV thinking it will do something. All these couch-experts trying to tell Toyota what needs to be done for an absolute fraction of a fraction of a fraction of their buyer base. Toyota doesnt give a f*** about the 3 people who would buy a diesel/70 series stateside.

 

[Gr8Daneger]

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I have little hope that the new Land Cruiser will be anything more than a Land Cruiser badge slapped on a disappointment.

My wife says I'm a pessimist. I say I'm a realist!

My thoughts exactly! They aren’t going to make any of the current LC lovers happy. I believe they are going to try to appeal to a new market segment and officially discredit the LC brand in the US.

 

[300blk]

Why would you want the 300 to come to the US?

I’ve been told that the Sequoia is just like the Land Cruiser by people on YouTube.

In all seriousness, I test drove the Lexus and I just can’t get over by how ugly it is.