2020 Heritage Edition (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter PhiloCruiser
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Toyota already does it though.
-The TRD Pro 4Runner is factory lifted...and factory equipped with ATs exactly as is being suggested here. Sell like hot cakes & Toyota can’t keep up with TRD Pro 4R demand.
**In the end, none of this really matters.
-Just strange how the Tacoma, Tundra and 4Runner TRD Pros got real upgrades...
...but legendary LC gets....
Wait for it—
-Stickers, paint...
...and a spool of colored thread.
Woooo!
Lol
Movin on...
I knew that post was coming. A TRD pro has a one inch taller and stiffer suspension and the exact same size tires. Not a “2-3” lift” plus “bigger tires”.
No. The TRD pro has the exact same size tires. My post mentioned a rollover lawsuit from tires.
fireball
SILVER Star
The rock warrior offering on the tundra was a slightly bigger tire.
Markuson
SILVER Star
Who said 2-3?
Mild lift.
AT tires.
I don’t even have a 3 inch lift on my beast.
I did mention 32-33 KO2s i(which is exact tire Toyota rofficially ecommends for the LC ...285/70/17 is around 32+).
Point was pretty simple.
TRD Pros got upgrades. Not the same old street tires and suspension with badges.
Not sure what they do now, but the 2015 4R TRD Pro had ATs, higher capacity Bilsteins that allowed an inch more travel at all four wheels, and eibach springs.
In other words...these are examples of actual upgrades.
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Canyonero
Beating up Land Cruisers since 2015
As said earlier, Toyota knows how to make money better than any of us and better than any auto manufacturer. That's hard to dispute.
But, as this is a Toyota forum, and in particular the 200 Series Cruisers sub-forum, the voices here should probably still matter to Toyota. The people here are the most well-heeled Toyota/Lexus buyers, and paying attention to our thoughts is free market research for anyone from Toyota who cares to read/listen.
There isn't anything else in the 200 Series class of vehicle. No competitors allows for a high degree of freedom. In the case of Toyota, that freedom means sitting on a proven platform for 15 years because you can. Good luck taking a Chevy Tahoe over Golden Crack.
But that complacent (some would call conservative) approach doesn't work for a lot of buyers. My personal story is I've owned Toyotas pretty much my whole life until now. From my MR2 in high school, to an LC500 I had just a year ago. Tons of great Toyotas (including Cruisers) in between. I bought a new 2015 200 Series LC and dumped about $25k into it to make it the way I wanted. Ultimately, 3 years later, I just couldn't live with the compromises, and I have moved on.
In fact, I have moved on from Toyota as a brand. I can't get behind any of their current truck offerings when compared to others in the class.
The current 4Runner still rocks a 5-speed slushbox and gets abysmal fuel economy. The current Tacoma is a dinosaur. The Tundra doesn't compete on efficiency or content. The FJ is gone. RIP. But all are/were proven in terms of QDR, and Toyota still moves widgets.
I think the sentiments of some of the 200 Series crowd is that if Ford can roll OEM 35" tires on the Raptor and Jeep can roll stock 33" tires on their Wrangler Rubicon (while constantly bragging you can toss 35's on without a lift), then Toyota can also do better to keep their street cred as a real 4x4 manufacturer. Small tires and no lockers... no thanks.
I personally think the Heritage Edition 200 looks pretty sweet. But it's a truck you buy and either don't take off road, or you still have to modify it (sliders at a minimum). It still not an "out of the box" rough and tumble Cruiser.
At some point, QDR just isn't enough.
?
We’ve been “demanding” Toyota save us a whole 30 minutes by yanking running boards and third row for us, but still charging for them?
This thread is getting goofy.
Dude. Come on. How many times have you seen people in here debate the merits of the coolbox? Threads on a full size cargo mat for when the third row removed....replacing the cargo carpet because of the holes that are left....removing those fancy chrome strips at the bottom of the doors on 13+, that will leave holes if you remove them.....an aversion to chrome in general, blacking out grilles etc to make it look better......stock wheels that look like they came off a Camry ('16+)....these are all things that are wanted by a significant portion of the LC market. I say significant because the LC market is only about 3500 strong a year, and given the number of 200 owners in here, and how often these topics are discussed, its a significant portion of the LC market. And these are all things that the Heritage addresses.
I was actually shocked to see they came out with an edition with these admittedly minor tweaks which directly addressed the little things we've been wanting. My immediate thought was "Holy cow, they've been reading MUD." We've been talking about a stripped down version of an LC for years. Not even necessarily because we wanted it cheaper, mainly because we wanted a choice in the matter. Its because we wanted it less blingy, with less of the stuff we DONT want, like big screens and fake fridges and chrome. And running boards and third row seats.
And dont worry, I guarantee you, running boards and third row seats will not be on the window sticker and there will be no charge for them on the Heritage edition.
You keep bringing up TRD Pro and lockers and lifts. You are comparing apples and oranges. Thats not what this is or was trying to be.
Maybe if they would have just done this without making a hoopla about it, without a special edition, and just offered an LC with these "options/deletes", people wouldn't automatically start comparing it to a "TRD Pro" and talking about winches and snorkels.
All I know is, I had written off the 16+ 200 because I rented one for a week in the mountains and hated the 8 speed tranny. Well, when our '13 is approaching 200k in about 4 years, I will be looking for a 3 year old Heritage, in black, and Ill run it in PWR and Sport mode all the time until it learns my driving style.
(Or maybe they are still listening and will offer one in Amazon Green!
)
I enjoy most of your numerous posts. So, don't take this the wrong way. But, I have learned that you are pretty opinionated on this forum and appear to continue to present your point of view as correct, regardless of the facts.
In this case, you are not correct. Toyota cannot and will not release an LC with a combination of lift and bigger tires for liability reasons. Now you are talking about A/T tires. You mentioned bigger tires and many people mentioned doing something similar to what the Toyota dealer did (good luck if one of those rolls). Correct, the 4Runner TRDs do have AT tires but not bigger tires. Many posts ago I said yes they have a 1" lift on the TRD 4Runner which has a STIFFER (less prone to rollover than soft) shock.
I guess you missed the part about me being (a pretty damn good) attorney for several decades.
I also appreciate your information on 4Runners.. By the way, check out my other ride.
Markuson
SILVER Star
Oppositional?
I oppose that!
None of this stuff really matters.
Just seems odd to me.
This is just a bunch of thoughts and opinions that ebb and flow.
No guilty or innocent verdict needed...& no need for cross examinations.It’s just not all that important in an opinion thread like this one.
PS. I’ve been cranky here. Sorry about that, @dnh1 ...you’re right.
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If I was buying a 2020 LC, it would be the heritage. It’s the best looking 200. I’d miss the cool box a bit, maybe.
bloc
SILVER Star
Also don’t forget.. they saw enough market for the trd pro models to do the testing. There is NO way they’d release these without the standard suite of hazard avoidance maneuvers and feedback/adjustment. And that’s the tip of the iceberg in terms of what goes into releasing a vehicle to the mass market. That is exactly how they are on such solid footing legally when someone rolls their trd pro 4Runner. They can walk into court and show data that a stock one performs within the parameters defined by the regulations, or whatever matters.. and the owner that rolled theirs was being particularly stupid.
Even arb thought modern cruiser crash standards were important enough to crash test their bumpers, apparently.
Toyota won’t do anything like the trd pro version for a cruiser until it makes financial sense to do all of that testing, marketing, etc. and keep in mind they only sell 3000/yr. No one can say with a straight face that a pro version would alter that number to a significant degree.. so on Toyota’s part, why bother?
Until then, there is the aftermarket.
I’m with @Itsky Add sliders and some slightly bigger ATs on those bronze wheels and I’d have my next 20-yr vehicle.
Even arb thought modern cruiser crash standards were important enough to crash test their bumpers, apparently.
Toyota won’t do anything like the trd pro version for a cruiser until it makes financial sense to do all of that testing, marketing, etc. and keep in mind they only sell 3000/yr. No one can say with a straight face that a pro version would alter that number to a significant degree.. so on Toyota’s part, why bother?
Until then, there is the aftermarket.
I’m with @Itsky Add sliders and some slightly bigger ATs on those bronze wheels and I’d have my next 20-yr vehicle.
Canyonero
Beating up Land Cruisers since 2015
I agree with all this, except... they used to. Toyota used to sell LC's with front and rear lockers and a solid front axle. They used to sell a much more utilitarian Land Cruiser in the States than what we can now get.
And while Toyota is particularly conservative, let's not pretend offering a more capable 200 (or 4Runner, Taco, whatever) is the fast track to legal hell. Jeep has been at this for a LONG time, selling big, bad solid front axle, fully locked vehicles. Now they sell those same vehicles with the typical suite of safety technologies you would find elsewhere. It can be done, Toyota just won't do it.
bloc
SILVER Star
I wish I knew why they won’t offer a locker. Most likely it has to do with crawl control being “good enough” in this market for the vast majority of realistic new buyers to overlook that offering. Plus at this point we have how many options available on a new cruiser? Basically exterior and interior colors and add-on stuff like flares right? I see the economics in having as few options as possible to sell the things. Especially on such a low volume product. And when weighed against the potential hit to reliability. How many fzj80 rear locker actuators are corroding into dust at this point? While the axle housings are fine. And them being solid axle has zero bearing on this discussion.. that was what struck the reliability/capability/comfort balance toyota was striving for at the time. You could get a solid axle 100 in parts of the world for a while.. the 105.. but there is no solid axle 200. Toyota’s priorities, and that of their buyers, are shifting.
I’m not saying they -can’t- offer a taller, AT tire clad, more capable 200. Simply that the numbers must not make sense to do so or toyota would be offering it.
Comparing a modern cruiser to any Jeep is apples to oranges.
Edit: to throw in some tech.. any thoughts on whether the heritage edition will come with softer rear springs to make up for the lack of rear seats? I know it’s not a huge weight difference but they already have a bunch of different rear springs already.
mcgaskins
SILVER Star
Re:the Jeep proposition. I've long been a huge fan of the idea of the Wrangler, and I've actually owned more Jeeps than Toyotas (even have a TJ right now). The fact you can buy a solid axle, fully locked, electronic sway bar vehicle with removable roof, doors and windshield that can fit 35s stock in 2019 is actually mind blowing to me, BUT I came across this video the other day on expo portal that I find interesting. I imagine Toyota likely thinks unless they could do this formula and ace all the worldwide crash tests it's not worth the time, effort, expense and legal hassle to execute.
Markuson
SILVER Star
It’s interesting to try and figure out their process. Obviously it’s a business decision, but I’d love to be a fly on the wall to see their full rationale along the way.
My ‘99 100 series was the last year they offered factory LC rear locker in the US. It was a great tool to include and even better that it came from the factory bc it meant Toyota was prepared to service it. If they were to throw one in the 200 (we all agree they won’t), then it would easily become my target model year someday when my 2008 dies and I’m hunting for a used replacement... I guess the US specs will always be a little weird.
Sometimes I wonder if Toyota really just doesn’t want to sell a lot of Cruisers here for whatever reason.
EPA average fleet numbers? I dunno...
They just don’t don’t seem very interested.Maybe it’s sorta like the Dodge Viper.
Dodge never really pushed or promoted them for sales. They seemed happy to just have them in existence somewhere as a brand trophy. Sorta like the Dodge Demon now. It’s a cool trophy they happily sell...record-setter, etc. that brings cred to the brand...but probably never a high number sales goal for Dodge.
Seems like a Psych student could find an interesting doctoral thesis study topic on the psychological rationale behind flagship models vs intentions for actual sales numbers vs branding as corporate motivation. It’s fascinating and I don’t doubt there are psychologists working hard every day somewhere in the Tokyo/Dodge/etc pipelines.
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The Australian Design Rules (ADR) require that vehicles with aftermarket accessories added must work within the ADR rules as to when the vehicle hit the showroom floor including safety features such as airbag compliance. That is why they are tested, just like the TJMs. TJM discusses their ADR compliance on their website. 4WD Accessories - TJM Rear Bar - 4x4 Accessories | TJM Australia I don't think any of these manufacturers would test for airbag compliance due to the expense if it were not for the ADR compliance rules.
In my estimation, since Toyota is only planning on selling a limited number of LCs, they aren't going to put in the effort to add additional features when they will easily move the ones the ship here. I do think fleet CAFE standards has a lot to do with it. Even the 4R, which has very good sales, has been left out in the cold as to many "upgrades" other models, including the Tacoma have received like auto cruise, auto braking, etc. And those features may not come to the 4Runner until the 6th gen comes out. Why pay the expense to add and test these features when people will buy what you produce either way? Toyota sales are based on quality, and as long as people keep buying I don't seem them making much of a change. And even though many other manufacturers have great new features I loved, I've already experienced the quality control of Dodge, Ford and Chevy. Won't make that mistake again.
When I can add features like a locker, even an electronic one very similar to OEM, I'm not going to get to caught up on not having one from the factory (even though I would love one). If anything, I'd like the trucks to simplify a few features (separate hvac and stereo for example). If they are going to remove a feature, the integrated unit would be at the top of my list.
The heritage version means very little to me as I plan to buy a 300 series next. If the 300 takes a step back (like the Tacoma) and I end up buying as new of a 200 as possible, then I may form an opinion on the Heritage.
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Canyonero
Beating up Land Cruisers since 2015
Obviously, an LC compared to a Jeep is apples to oranges - at least apparently. But digging a little deeper, the comparison I was really making was one about company ideology and strategy. Appealing to the enthusiast base is a REAL strategy. It's why Toyota makes low-volume cars like the 86 and now the Supra. LC500 over at Lexus. Halo/enthusiast vehicles to get people into the brand.
Toyota sells some great 4x4's, based on proven platforms that are incredibly reliable and durable. I'm on the fence as to whether I think they are really geared for an off-road enthusiast, however. At least not this particular enthusiast, at this moment in time. Jeep, on the other hand, sells a LOT of Wranglers, despite having objectively worse quality control and abysmal crash ratings. Buyers don't care (a lot of them anyway.) They are enthusiasts buying an enthusiast vehicle - even if some are "poser enthusiasts" - many are truly passionate about getting off the beaten path.
Jeep just sold a record number of redesigned Wranglers
Obviously, none of us can tell Toyota what they should do, but there are probably a significant number of current and future Jeep buyers who would definitely consider a Toyota with a removable top and lockers... but they may never make their way over to Toyota without a compelling off-road alternative.
Toyota sells some great 4x4's, based on proven platforms that are incredibly reliable and durable. I'm on the fence as to whether I think they are really geared for an off-road enthusiast, however. At least not this particular enthusiast, at this moment in time. Jeep, on the other hand, sells a LOT of Wranglers, despite having objectively worse quality control and abysmal crash ratings. Buyers don't care (a lot of them anyway.) They are enthusiasts buying an enthusiast vehicle - even if some are "poser enthusiasts" - many are truly passionate about getting off the beaten path.
Jeep just sold a record number of redesigned Wranglers
Obviously, none of us can tell Toyota what they should do, but there are probably a significant number of current and future Jeep buyers who would definitely consider a Toyota with a removable top and lockers... but they may never make their way over to Toyota without a compelling off-road alternative.
bloc
SILVER Star
It always seemed clear to me that toyota was NOT focusing on the off-road enthusiast, especially with the last couple decades of the cruiser. A major justification for enthusiast models such as the TRD Pro models and even the 86 and new supra were they were relatively easy to implement. Within their conservative business strategy those made sense, either being better developed versions of vehicles they already sell a ton of, or co-developed platforms shared with another manufacturer. The odd-ball, to me, is the FJ Cruiser. As weird as they were it seemed like what happens when toyota decides to make something specifically for this market.. and as far as I know it was a success even if it wasn't continued.
Another thing to consider is can toyota build something that competes with jeep in off-road ability, while achieving toyota's standards for quality and safety, at a price point that will actually sell? Jeeps are amazing off-road, but fall apart quickly, and are STILL very expensive.
Personally the reason I'm in a 200 despite the cost is I know it will be big enough and capable enough to get me and all of my crap where I want to go, mostly problem free, for hundreds of thousands of miles. No other vehicle will do what a 200 will, when held up to my set of requirements.
You guys are bringing up good points about CAFE standards as to a reason not to sell more cruisers. Perhaps if the 300 does have the rumored turbo v6 (which it's no secret I dislike the idea of) and it gains a significant FE increase they'll actually try to do more with them.
I agree with you about appreciating nearly stock as well. I've been through the ringer with other car modifications. Once you add this, then you have to add that, and that requires adjustments all the time, and did I mention... this just broke that, and now it needs to be replaced.... And on and on it goes. I am leaving my 200 stock except for a few tasteful upgrades like coilover suspension, upgraded brakes, and maybe some sliders in the future. If I wanted a rat rod, I would have gotten a mini truck.
