12 Hole Injector Upgrade - Finally Tested (3 Viewers)

[suprarx7nut]

With the help of the ih8mud community, we were finally able to test the 12 hole injector upgrade. See the video below. Huge thanks to @RiverRatMatt @BuckeyeFan and @J1000 for stepping up to the plate and ponying up with contributions.

As far as I can tell we were able to produce the most complete set of data related to this topic to date. I've still got all the logs and dyno charts so we can dive into anything else people want to see in this thread. I'm happy to share the data via Google Drive as well. I'll try to get that setup soon.

HINT: There's a bonus at the end that's going to ruffle some feathers. It relates to engine air filters...




Full raw data available for download here. Not this does not include any charts. Those were done in an external software.

 

[ClassyJalopy]

Thanks @suprarx7nut and everyone else who helped put this to bed. You guys spent you time, money and skill to help move the knowledge marker forward and debunk some hearsay.

WATCH THE VIDEO - WATCH THE VIDEO - IT IS WORTH IT!!
For anyone who doesn't have time to watch 13 min video right away, here's quick summary:
12 hole injector don't do anything different than 4 hole ones. And aftermarket air filters hurt performance rather than help.

 

[4Beast]

Really appreciate your dedication to the scientific method. Nice to not have to worry about a couple "upgrades." More proof that Toyota engineers actually know what they are doing.

 

[ton504]

Thanks for putting this together. How about their flow rates? Advertised info vs information from the cleaning/testing?

 

[suprarx7nut]

Thanks for putting this together. How about their flow rates? Advertised info vs information from the cleaning/testing?

The testing of my 4-hole injectors showed no significant volume deviation after 217k miles. One injector did have a terrible spray pattern, though. You can see the a picture of the cleaning in the video (I forget exactly where). You can see one injector almost has all the flow going out one side. The guy that did the cleaning was surprised it didn't drive poorly before I pulled them.

For the 12 hole injectors, I'm not sure if @J1000 received flow test data.

The 12 hole injectors were a slightly different flow rate, so the data from the OBD2 log needs to be adjusted. The ECU assumes the injectors are 250 and the 12 hole were actually 255 *edited to correct. Makes near as no difference for closed loop (normal driving), but has potential to make a difference at WOT. In our testing, I did not see any difference any of the data, aside from the expected calculated fuel flow offset in closed loop.

 

[gregnash]

Awesome video! Completely makes sense too, maybe in a utilization of drag racing or something would the increased injectors make sense but like your cleaner said, back when things were limited, increasing the number of holes for the fuel atomization made sense. Guess after 4 holes you hit a diminishing returns profile.

And I will have to see if I can find the video but there was one that I found on YT regarding the so-called "performance" filters vs. stock/OEM vs. aftermarket that came to the same conclusion that you guys showed. Actually I think the guy doing even found that a slightly dirt filter actually produced better numbers than a brand new and clean filter. And basically, as long as it was a decent quality filter, there was no real discernible benefits of OEM vs. aftermarket.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Awesome video! Completely makes sense too, maybe in a utilization of drag racing or something would the increased injectors make sense but like your cleaner said, back when things were limited, increasing the number of holes for the fuel atomization made sense. Guess after 4 holes you hit a diminishing returns profile.

And I will have to see if I can find the video but there was one that I found on YT regarding the so-called "performance" filters vs. stock/OEM vs. aftermarket that came to the same conclusion that you guys showed. Actually I think the guy doing even found that a slightly dirt filter actually produced better numbers than a brand new and clean filter. And basically, as long as it was a decent quality filter, there was no real discernible benefits of OEM vs. aftermarket.

Yeah and I think just from a high level perspective - an engine air filter is very cheap. If an OEM could make a meaningful difference in performance for an extra few bucks in parts cost, they would. That being said, TRD does offer a K&N style filter. Not sure if I've ever seen them advertise performance gains though, so perhaps they're trying to capitalize on the "tuner" mentality.

 

[gregnash]

Found it! Thought this was a pretty good and comprehensive video.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Found it! Thought this was a pretty good and comprehensive video.

Nice! I'll have to watch that. I love that guy's videos. I have a ways to go before I figure out how to make data seem as interesting as he does.

 

[2001LC]

Good job!

 

[gatormark91]

Shame that actual money had to be spent on this. Some folks just don't want to believe simple science and physics. Definitely Mythbusters-level quality of effort. Good job!

 

[gregnash]

Shame that actual money had to be spent on this. Some folks just don't want to believe simple science and physics. Definitely Mythbusters-level quality of effort. Good job!

And there will still be some people that won't believe it, come up with some reason why your testing went wrong, and deny the proof. Unfortunately, those are usually the louder ones in our society and thus their info becomes more mainstream.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Shame that actual money had to be spent on this. Some folks just don't want to believe simple science and physics. Definitely Mythbusters-level quality of effort. Good job!

Meh, glass half full view: It was a good opportunity to get some dyno time!

 

[suprarx7nut]

And there will still be some people that won't believe it, come up with some reason why your testing went wrong, and deny the proof. Unfortunately, those are usually the louder ones in our society and thus their info becomes more mainstream.

Oh absolutely, I'm counting on it. That thumbnail of the video is basically aimed at those people. If you believe there's a difference "show me your data".

I'm hoping the video garners some controversy and boosts it on Youtube's algorithms. I've been painfully close to the monitization limit for a couple years. I'm hoping this video finally tips over that edge and starts a tiny trickle of passive income so I can justify doing more fun car stuff for business.

 

[bluesquirrel]

Pretty cool about the filter. I was always suspicious of that.

 

[J1000]

The real takaway IMO is that you should just keep your engine in the best working order possible. If that means spending $160 to clean your old injectors or spend that money on new ones; both are good options. The biggest increase in HP came from just running the engine, IIRC we made almost 15 more HP on the last run as we made on the very first run. After doing a dyno test like this it only just reinforces the fact that there are tons of variables and it's almost impossible to correct for all of them. I think we successfully put this one to bed, though.

 

[suprarx7nut]

The real takaway IMO is that you should just keep your engine in the best working order possible. If that means spending $160 to clean your old injectors or spend that money on new ones; both are good options. The biggest increase in HP came from just running the engine, IIRC we made almost 15 more HP on the last run as we made on the very first run. After doing a dyno test like this it only just reinforces the fact that there are tons of variables and it's almost impossible to correct for all of them. I think we successfully put this one to bed, though.

Agreed.

Engine temp made the most difference as far as I could tell. Within the same temp range, we saw pretty negligible differences with either set of injectors or filters. Undoubtedly there were still contributors outside of engine temp and the parts we swapped. I was impressed with how repeatable the dyno was back to back, though. It seemed very precise, which was good.

 

[katit]

And speaking of injector cleaning - I sent mine out for cleaning as a part of big tune up job. At 195k. The shop called asking "what was wrong with a truck". They were puzzled as injectors were just fine and they didn't know why I sent them in. Maybe a bit of volume fluctuation which was removed by cleaning. But nothing to worry about.

 

[suprarx7nut]

And speaking of injector cleaning - I sent mine out for cleaning as a part of big tune up job. At 195k. The shop called asking "what was wrong with a truck". They were puzzled as injectors were just fine and they didn't know why I sent them in. Maybe a bit of volume fluctuation which was removed by cleaning. But nothing to worry about.

I think the cleaning is a bit of a calculated risk. By the time you can *feel* a problem you'll be wishing you had them cleaned during the last service. A bad fuel injector can cause all kinds of hard to diagnose trouble, so best to stay ahead of it. I think 200-300k miles is a good cleaning interval.

One of my injectors was barely spraying out of two holes. The guy cleaning was surprised I didn't notice something really wrong. You could see it in the spray pattern photos.

 

[Brandon Ryder]

is there any advantage to buying new injectors vs having them cleaned/ serviced? can an injector be beyond service or fail in such a way that it can't be repaired?