12 Hole Injector Upgrade - Finally Tested (2 Viewers)

[dirtydeeds]

The way a truck drives with 12 hole injectors compared to 4 hole injectors is not placebo. It drives better hands down.

We’re going around in circles now but how quickly you lay into the throttle does make a difference and that was not taken into consideration.

I challenge you to hard reset an ecu, then go drive the truck, not on the dyno, on the street, where the variable is load, you know, since that changes as the vehicle moves over the ground while not being strapped down on a dyno stationary.

Im not looking for ‘a way out’. I’m pointing out the fact that your ‘hard evidence’ supports EXACTLY what I told you it would when we spoke on the phone. And exactly what I tell everybody whom calls me asking about 12 hole injectors. By looking at the results in a negative way you’re causing guys to be scared of a great mod that makes their truck drive better in every way possible, except at full throttle, in which case there is no change.

 

[Battleship]

By looking at the results in a negative way

They aren't negative, just objective. I contributed to the project because I thought it would show a statistically significant difference between the injector types (like I wanted it to). The data don't support it, it is what it is.

 

[dirtydeeds]

They aren't negative, just objective. I contributed to the project because I thought it would show a statistically significant difference between the injector types (like I wanted it to). The data don't support it, it is what it is.

I agree with you, just like I told you during our conversation on the phone before you did the testing.

Have you actually driven a truck with injectors compared to without? And given it time to adapt?*

*question is not asked to put you on the defensive. I’m curious to know.

 

[suprarx7nut]

I agree with you, just like I told you during our conversation on the phone before you did the testing.

Have you actually driven a truck with injectors compared to without? And given it time to adapt?*

*question is not asked to put you on the defensive. I’m curious to know.

I think you meant to quote me instead of Buckeye. I have not driven with 12 hole injectors. Jimmy has as his vehicle was our test mule.

 

[bluesquirrel]

This has been very enlightening and bucket-of-popcorn entertaining.

If I was selling 12 hole injectors, I would probably be worried about unbiased Dyno testing as well.

 

[Eyedaho]

I agree with you, just like I told you during our conversation on the phone before you did the testing.

Have you actually driven a truck with injectors compared to without? And given it time to adapt?*

*question is not asked to put you on the defensive. I’m curious to know.

Is your theory that four hole injectors yield incomplete combustion under certain conditions? I'm trying to understand what the theoretical advantage of the twelve hole ones is. I would think incomplete combustion would show up in O2 sensor data, so maybe it's theoretically faster combustion that's occurring?

 

[dirtydeeds]

This has been very enlightening and bucket-of-popcorn entertaining.

If I was selling 12 hole injectors, I would probably be worried about unbiased Dyno testing as well.

If I was making a living at selling injectors I would’ve done the dyno testing myself. I can with certainty say that I’m most qualified to do so and more qualified than even the dyno operator of this test seeing as I’ve had a tundra on the dyno hundreds of times testing various things. I doubt the dyno operator of this test can make the same claims as it’s very rare to dyno test Toyota pickups or SUV’s.

Since I only sell the injectors as a service to the community, and the profit margin and volume are hardly worth my time to deal with them, I’ve let the product speak for itself. My bread and butter after all is bolt on exhaust systems for 5.7 tundra. 4.7 is my hobby as my toy happens to be a turbocharged 4.7 running e85 with 12 hole injectors of course, 440cc

Again, you’ll never see anybody remove their 12 hole injectors to put their 4 holes back on. And you certainly don’t see 5.7’s seeking a way to remove their factory 12 hole injectors in favor of a set of old fashioned 4 hole injectors.

While I appreciate scientific testing, the purpose of these injectors is to make your truck drive better, which cannot be tested on a Dyno, you have to actually drive the vehicle on the road to test that.

 

[2001LC]

@suprarx7nut any chance you've engine temp, CAT temps and fuel trim date?

Since this idea of 12 hole was suggested in mud, as being the best thing since slice bread. I had a question as to unknown condition of old 4 hole injectors, the 12 hole replaced. That old, possible clogged injector may not performer as well as freshly cleaned, rebuilt along with new seals may. That, the number of holes may not be what the seat-of-the-pants feel was suggesting.

You went even further, actually getting us all hard data. Thank you and the team involved.

The question of ECM relearning is and interesting one. If battery was disconnected for minutes. I'd think, that would be all that is needed. But even if not, I doubt you would have seen much difference in torque or HP readouts. I say this because, when I do tune ups, I do disconnect battery to rest ECM. The difference I see is in idle or more accurately the seat of the pant so called "D" vibration. I've never seen or felt difference in MPG or performance, when I did not reset ECM or when I did. I did closely track MPG long term long hand method, in both cases. Real world MPG data is much more difficult, and IMHO would take a very long time to gather. But if flow rate the same, I doubt we gain in MPG with 12 hole.

I'd think, the dyno shop would be a good source to answer this ECM relearning question. They do these this day in and day out. No doubt that argument would have come up many times.

Seems, some all along, have had vested interest in see positive results, in this and other threads. But this thread actual gives real data. For me, the dyno is best judge of performance.

 

[suprarx7nut]

If I was making a living at selling injectors I would’ve done the dyno testing myself. I can with certainty say that I’m most qualified to do so and more qualified than even the dyno operator of this test seeing as I’ve had a tundra on the dyno hundreds of times testing various things. I doubt the dyno operator of this test can make the same claims as it’s very rare to dyno test Toyota pickups or SUV’s.

Since I only sell the injectors as a service to the community, and the profit margin and volume are hardly worth my time to deal with them, I’ve let the product speak for itself. My bread and butter after all is bolt on exhaust systems for 5.7 tundra. 4.7 is my hobby as my toy happens to be a turbocharged 4.7 running e85 with 12 hole injectors of course, 440cc

Again, you’ll never see anybody remove their 12 hole injectors to put their 4 holes back on. And you certainly don’t see 5.7’s seeking a way to remove their factory 12 hole injectors in favor of a set of old fashioned 4 hole injectors.

While I appreciate scientific testing, the purpose of these injectors is to make your truck drive better, which cannot be tested on a Dyno, you have to actually drive the vehicle on the road to test that.

Clean injectors and dirty injectors can certainly make a difference. I think we all agree on that. How many of your customers have installed freshly cleaned 4 hole, then immediately 12 hole? My guess is nearly zero because that's only something data-obsessed enthusiasts on ih8mud would do. . The anecdotal evidence for this mod is certainly tainted by people replacing old and potentially dirty injectors. They may just be feeling the small (but agreed upon) difference between old and dirty vs new/cleaned.

Your core disagreement with everyone here seems to be that you believe you can *feel* things you cannot measure. I think I can speak for most the folks that have posted here that we believe we measured exactly what should be *felt* and the result was that highly precise and repeatable measurement equipment was unable to show any statistical differences.

@suprarx7nut any chance you've engine temp, CAT temps and fuel trim date?

Since this idea of 12 hole was suggested in mud, as being the best thing since slice bread. I had a question as to unknown condition of old 4 hole injectors, the 12 hole replaced. That old, possible clogged injector may not performer as well as freshly cleaned, rebuilt along with new seals may. That, the number of holes may not be what the seat-of-the-pants feel was suggesting.

You went even further, actually getting us all hard data. Thank you and the team involved.

The question of ECM relearning is and interesting one. If battery was disconnected for minutes. I'd think, that would be all that is needed. But even if not, I doubt you would have seen much difference in torque or HP readouts. I say this because, when I do tune ups, I do disconnect battery to rest ECM. The difference I see is in idle or more accurately the seat of the pant so called "D" vibration. I've never seen or felt difference in MPG or performance, when I did not reset ECM or when I did. I did closely track MPG long term long hand method, in both cases. Real world MPG data is much more difficult, and IMHO would take a very long time to gather. But if flow rate the same, I doubt we gain in MPG with 12 hole.

I'd think, the dyno shop would be a good source to answer this ECM relearning question. They do these this day in and day out. No doubt that argument would have come up many times.

Seems, some all along, have had vested interest in see positive results, in this and other threads. But this thread actual gives real data. For me, the dyno is best judge of performance.

Yes, cat temps and fuel trim were logged in the raw data. We collected every parameter available via the Torque app. I plotted them all and couldn't find any significant correlation worth mentioning, but it's possible I missed something. The data is all public so anyone is welcome to dive in and explore.

Similarly, I've reset the ECU on a couple 100's and on my Supra's more times than I can count. Never felt anything on the street other than idle smoothness variations.

 

[dirtydeeds]

Is your theory that four hole injectors yield incomplete combustion under certain conditions? I'm trying to understand what the theoretical advantage of the twelve hole ones is. I would think incomplete combustion would show up in O2 sensor data, so maybe it's theoretically faster combustion that's occurring?

Its not theory. It’s fact. At lower engine speeds when the air is moving more slowly, less of the fuel atomizes with 4 hole injectors than with 12 hole injectors. After all, it is the atomized fuel which burns, the droplets expel back into the atmosphere as unburnt hydrocarbons.

At this point in the history of the automobile even 12 hole injectors are old technology. Unoess direct injection at really high pressures needs to be tested on the dyno too before anybody believes it’s better. LOL.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Its not theory. It’s fact. At lower engine speeds when the air is moving more slowly, less of the fuel atomizes with 4 hole injectors than with 12 hole injectors. After all, it is the atomized fuel which burns, the droplets expel back into the atmosphere as unburnt hydrocarbons.

At this point in the history of the automobile even 12 hole injectors are old technology. Unoess direct injection at really high pressures needs to be tested on the dyno too before anybody believes it’s better. LOL.

And what matters in this context is the magnitude of the improvement. Nobody is going to feel <1% change in fuel burn efficiency. If it's 5%, we'll probably notice. Measuring the magnitude of that change is the name of the game. From our testing, the delta between tests suggests the changes are within a percent or two. The variation we found was very well correlated to overall engine temps and the air filter.

For OEMs, they can take small improvements in the burn and use that to modify fuel maps, timing, chamber shape, fuel trim, etc... Maybe with all of that they can realize a net 2-5% improvement. None of that we can do on a stock 2UZ, though. OEMs doing things on new vehicles doesn't mean retrofits will yield statistically significant benefits in other equipment. It has to be tested and proven.

 

[J1000]

When OEMs tune engines and test system performance components like fuel injectors, I believe they're doing this (engine dyno). We can't do an engine dyno easily, but we can do a rolling dyno, so we did.

View attachment 2223379

Your core disagreement with everyone here seems to be that you believe you can *feel* things you cannot measure. I think I can speak for most the folks that have posted here that we believe we measured exactly what should be *felt* and the result was that highly precise and repeatable measurement equipment was unable to show any statistical differences.

The first one is a highly precise and repeatable measurement equipment. The dyno we used was next-best. I definitely wouldn't call it highly precise but "pretty good." We're also measuring HP at the wheels through the entire driveline vs. having an isolated engine on a stand. It just comes down to how finely we want to cut hairs. In hindsight we probably should have done some things differently like for instance in each phase we should have done enough pulls that the HP leveled off and did not change any more and then use the data from those pulls. After all we did make the most HP of the day using the 12-hole injectors which I'm not sure was clear in the video. Those runs were after we changed the air filter also which took less than 1 minute so the truck had also ran 6 full power pulls one right after the other just adding more evidence that the temperature of the engine makes more difference than what we can measure from the injectors. All in all my point is just that this is a couple amateurs using someone else's equipment to try and prove who the best is at the internet. It was our first try and it's far from perfect. If my pockets were deep I would buy Dirty Deeds injectors all day over cleaning stock ones just because he's done the homework on fitment and more holes objectively means better atomization whether is really makes a difference or not once put in the engine. Who knows maybe if we put on headers and an exhaust it would make a measurable difference...I already volunteer for that test especially if someone else helps me install the headers

 

[suprarx7nut]

The first one is a highly precise and repeatable measurement equipment. The dyno we used was next-best. I definitely wouldn't call it highly precise but "pretty good." We're also measuring HP at the wheels through the entire driveline vs. having an isolated engine on a stand. It just comes down to how finely we want to cut hairs. In hindsight we probably should have done some things differently like for instance in each phase we should have done enough pulls that the HP leveled off and did not change any more and then use the data from those pulls. After all we did make the most HP of the day using the 12-hole injectors which I'm not sure was clear in the video. Those runs were after we changed the air filter also which took less than 1 minute so the truck had also ran 6 full power pulls one right after the other just adding more evidence that the temperature of the engine makes more difference than what we can measure from the injectors. All in all my point is just that this is a couple amateurs using someone else's equipment to try and prove who the best is at the internet. It was our first try and it's far from perfect. If my pockets were deep I would buy Dirty Deeds injectors all day over cleaning stock ones just because he's done the homework on fitment and more holes objectively means better atomization whether is really makes a difference or not once put in the engine. Who knows maybe if we put on headers and an exhaust it would make a measurable difference...I already volunteer for that test especially if someone else helps me install the headers

Fair point. This is probably the relevant chart for that. I didn't call that out since the variable was the filter and not the injectors and I didn't want to confuse anyone, but 12 hole did yield the peak numbers for the day. Would have been good to run the 4 hole with paper filter as well. I expect the data would have been right on top of the 12 hole-paper data.

I think the really telling part of this is the best fit lines below. The paper filter was clearly different than any other run in the WOT pulls and was mixed in the population at 2000 partial throttle and drifting from population at 3500. That's the kind of separation I'd expect from 12 v 4 if there was a perceptible difference.

 

[medtro]

With the help of the ih8mud community, we were finally able to test the 12 hole injector upgrade.

Thanks for the test results. Do you see any data suggesting 12 holes injector could harm the engine?

 

[suprarx7nut]

Thanks for the test results. Do you see any data suggesting 12 holes injector could harm the engine?

No, definitely not, provided they fit properly and flow the same as OEM.

 

[Berkut10r]

No, definitely not, provided they fit properly and flow the same as OEM.

I hate beating the departed horse but I have a burning question, did the overall smoothness of the engine change? In the original thread, one member (can't remember who) claimed that he thought the engine has cut off due to idling being silky smooth.

 

[suprarx7nut]

I hate beating the departed horse but I have a burning question, did the overall smoothness of the engine change? In the original thread, one member (can't remember who) claimed that he thought the engine has cut off due to idling being silky smooth.

I can go back in the data and see if idle speeds were more stable. We didn't measure vibrations so we don't really have a good measurement for smoothness beyond idle variation that I can think of.

 

[dirtydeeds]

Are you an automotive engineer? Are you in the automotive industry?

 

[nukegoat]

Lol @dirtydeeds now pulling out the appeal to authority.

These arguments are like my co-workers that still claim they just 'know' that eating a bunch of homeopathic garbage makes them feel better, in spite of no quantifiable evidence other than their own anecdotes.

@suprarx7nut - nice work.

 

[Lonegrasshopper]

Are you an automotive engineer? Are you in the automotive industry?

Before this discussion continues it's only prudent that anyone else contributing needs to post all relevant certificates and degrees.