ARCHIVE 100 Series Cat-back Exhaust

[Romer]

This is a 100 Series tech thread not a vendor forum thread. I think that makes anything posted here fair game for discussion. I think Nick baited you but regardless the claims made by any vendor are fair game for discussion. I actually like your agressive tone in comparing products.

I offered to dyno your system on the very trucks we used to do the DT headers. I use a Land & Sea Pro 1000 All Wheel Drive Chassis Dyno at a local tuner, it's a quality dyno. Dynojet isn't the end all be all of dyno's. I'm offering Nick/DT, who has supported this forum by creating the headers to begin with when no other maker would, the same thing I offered you. I understand how to conduct dyno testing and my write ups show it. My offer still stands for you.

Well said Rob

Part of my problem with the cat back (not talking vendor) is in understanding the difference to the progression many of us have. Rob's test clearly showed the improvement with and without the headers and I felt that when I installed them.

Your test are appreciated, but I am unable to link it to Robs test as they really where different. So I was unable to compare your and his stock tests to get a good baseline. Now that I have headers there is a potential for more improvement or less than shown in your test due to a new variable, the headers. What would be meaningful for me would be to take the same truck Rob tested and add headers. I really don't think there would be that significant a difference in performance between either, maybe a few % points. Thats just my opinion.

I do know from experience that larger exhaust will improve performance. On my SC'd 80 series I customed a 3" pipe with a magnaflow muffler CAT back from Meineke for less than $400. Not as pretty as either of your systems I know. Just stating what I have experienced, but that was 5 years ago and prices go up.

This is tech so civil technical discussions are appropriate. No spitting knifes or insults are allowed. If you want a thread were no one can come in and talk about your product thats another vendor, thats classifieds. Heck we have Slee and Luke and others all talking like gentleman in many threads and if you know Christo, that a'int easy

 

[NKP Garage]

This is a 100 Series tech thread not a vendor forum thread. I think that makes anything posted here fair game for discussion. I think Nick baited you but regardless the claims made by any vendor are fair game for discussion. I actually like your agressive tone in comparing products.

I offered to dyno your system on the very trucks we used to do the DT headers. I use a Land & Sea Pro 1000 All Wheel Drive Chassis Dyno at a local tuner, it's a quality dyno. Dynojet isn't the end all be all of dyno's. I'm offering Nick/DT, who has supported this forum by creating the headers to begin with when no other maker would, the same thing I offered you. I understand how to conduct dyno testing and my write ups show it. My offer still stands for you.

The Land and Sea Dynomite machines are completely adjustable the dyno operator and the values read are not set in stone. Although they're good for tuning purposes due to all of the features and the load holding capabilities, they are also completely adjustable by the dyno operator and can read all sorts of various values depending on how they are setup. The Dynojet is the industry standard for testing and comparison for that very reason, the numbers cannot be adjusted at all. A good read for anyone interested on the topic here: http://imageftp.dynojet.com/CMD/Truth_Lies_Dyno Runs_Final.pdf

Although I do appreciate your detailed descriptions of your dyno testing of the headers in your thread, what bothers me with testing is the details that people seem to overlook. In the case of the header dynos you mention measuring horsepower and torque gains at a false "hump" in the graph and calling it a 10.2% gain when it is actually a 5.6% gain really doesn't sit well with me. Looking at the graph it is obvious that something is going on at that spot and the power gain is somewhat questionable. There are always going to be false readings on a dyno that read as a hump or a dip. Sometimes when the torque converter locks up, sometimes when there is knock detected and the ECU pulls timing, sometimes when the vehicle is not strapped down well enough and there is tire slip, etc.. etc.. etc.. That doesn't mean that the false reading is actual true power being read. I understand that you are paying out of pocket for the dyno time and are limited to what you can do for the testing and how much time you can spend on it reasonably. Here at our shop, we are not limited by time and can dyno test over and over and over again to make sure we are getting real, repeatable, and consistent results, on a Dynojet dyno that actually reads consistently without any operator intervention. If you're planning on being in Texas at any point I'd welcome you to use our dyno for free for as long as you see fit to test the products back to back. I'd love to see the difference myself with proper testing.

We've tried sending off products for folks to dyno test on their own over the years, and the result is always the same, either they don't test them and the parts never come back to us, or they test them in a halfway manner that does not show proper results. Any and all testing of our products is kept in house and all results are shared. Anyone that wants the dyno run files can email us and we'll send them to you, anyone that wants to come by and watch during testing process is always welcome. Our doors are always open to the community.

 

[NKP Garage]

Well said Rob

Part of my problem with the cat back (not talking vendor) is in understanding the difference to the progression many of us have. Rob's test clearly showed the improvement with and without the headers and I felt that when I installed them.

Your test are appreciated, but I am unable to link it to Robs test as they really where different. So I was unable to compare your and his stock tests to get a good baseline. Now that I have headers there is a potential for more improvement or less than shown in your test due to a new variable, the headers. What would be meaningful for me would be to take the same truck Rob tested and add headers. I really don't think there would be that significant a difference in performance between either, maybe a few % points. Thats just my opinion.

I do know from experience that larger exhaust will improve performance. On my SC'd 80 series I customed a 3" pipe with a magnaflow muffler CAT back from Meineke for less than $400. Not as pretty as either of your systems I know. Just stating what I have experienced, but that was 5 years ago and prices go up.

This is tech so civil technical discussions are appropriate. No spitting knifes or insults are allowed. If you want a thread were no one can come in and talk about your product thats another vendor, thats classifieds. Heck we have Slee and Luke and others all talking like gentleman in many threads and if you know Christo, that a'int easy

The only 100 series we've had in our shop so far for the exhaust installation along with headers did not have the headers installed yet. We installed the headers last and the gains were very minimal (less than 4whp gain at peak difference). For that reason I did not post the dyno of the headers. If you'd like I'd be happy to share the results, but I would really like to test a properly designed set of headers first to see the results and if they're any different. Or I can post the DT results now if you guys want. Who knows, maybe the engine is just at it's peak efficiency on the stock tune and will not make more power even with a well designed header. But I'm willing to bet that a properly designed set of tuned headers will show a more substantial gain.

We have the same truck/customer that the testing has been done on so far scheduled to come in a couple of months to build a set of tuned headers on. More testing and data will be collected at that time to share with the community.

 

[arotrhd]

I would be happy to send out one of our catbacks for the cost of shipping for a 3rd party dyno. Also the 1 or 2 sets of defective headers from the 1st run were replaced with 2nd gen 304 stainless ceramic coated headers. Not one defective stainless header returned and dont expect to see any of them. Thanks for the hijack.

Nick

As I mentioned in my first post about the development DT CatBack in May, I will pick up the shipping costs to RobRed as the LC used was the 'baseline' vehicle for OEM exhuast & DT header tests; I look forward to what difference(s) there will be with the DT cat back. RobRed, send Nick the shipping info, shoot me a PM & I'll square up with Nick regarding the shipping costs.


I'm not going to bash any vendors who provide a greater product range for us'ns who have the 100's (or any other cruisers); lord knows it's takes a significant risk for any supplier to step up with any product offering to this group.

That being said, is it realistic to have THAT significant of a performance differential between 2 suppliers with similar products? At the end of the day, [most} of us are dealing with a stock configured 4.7 powerplant in vehicles that have a great spectrum of aftermarket accessories and weights usually well above stock config, all with many different end purposes & uses...these are not race bred vehicles. I'm pretty sure nobody is doing this for a drag race, and still, there's gonna be differences. And then even with the "gains", we still have beasts that go something like 'they take your gas...& tell you to eff off...".

Just sayin.

 

[NKP Garage]

is it realistic to have THAT significant of a performance differential between 2 suppliers with similar products? At the end of the day, [most} of us are dealing with a stock configured 4.7 powerplant in vehicles that have a great spectrum of aftermarket accessories and weights usually well above stock config, all with many different end purposes & uses...these are not race bred vehicles. I'm pretty sure nobody is doing this for a drag race, and still, there's gonna be differences. And then even with the "gains", we still have beasts that go something like 'they take your gas...& tell you to eff off...".

Just sayin.

No, there wont be a huge difference between the two catback exhaust options currently available for the 100 series V8. It will be a slight difference on naturally aspirated vehicles, and a more noticeable difference if your truck has a supercharger. When picking parts for your vehicle there's always the question of cost versus benefit. The answer to that equation is different for every owner.

 

[RobRed]

Any and all testing of our products is kept in house and all results are shared. Anyone that wants the dyno run files can email us and we'll send them to you, anyone that wants to come by and watch during testing process is always welcome. Our doors are always open to the community.

I considered going point by point with you about the dyno's and testing but I thought "how boring would that be..." You missed the bigger point and opportunity and that was to have a trusted, independent third party verify your claims of improvement.

This is a tight community of users, myself and others have donated countless hours seeking and verifying various solutions in many categories. Most often working directly with the vendors to optimize and improve their products (and sales) at little to no cost to them. The part about your poor marketing you stated earlier in the thread is showing through. I have no doubt that your exhaust system offers the possibility of improvement and your test results are impressive - makes for great marketing material.

Your offer of dyno time I'm sure will be well received by someone in your neighborhood it's just not convenient for me. I think our runs of 10 before and 10 afters on two different Land Cruisers was sufficient to measure the DT Headers performance difference and I'm sure the confidence in same drove a few additional sales for DT.

 

[Romer]

The only 100 series we've had in our shop so far for the exhaust installation along with headers did not have the headers installed yet. We installed the headers last and the gains were very minimal (less than 4whp gain at peak difference). For that reason I did not post the dyno of the headers. If you'd like I'd be happy to share the results, but I would really like to test a properly designed set of headers first to see the results and if they're any different. Or I can post the DT results now if you guys want. Who knows, maybe the engine is just at it's peak efficiency on the stock tune and will not make more power even with a well designed header. But I'm willing to bet that a properly designed set of tuned headers will show a more substantial gain.

We have the same truck/customer that the testing has been done on so far scheduled to come in a couple of months to build a set of tuned headers on. More testing and data will be collected at that time to share with the community.

Thats where my question lies. If I already have the majority of the gain with the headers (and there was gain) then changing out a working exhaust for little improvment makes no sense.

Its possible that you get significant Gain with the headers and that you get significant gain with the exhaust. My question is what about both. I am not sure where you say "properly designed headers" The DT headers are great and well made and they have been doing this for years with a proven track record. I was with you till you started bashing the other guy who worked with us when there wasnt a business case and made improvement in each run. Thats leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I have the redesigned headers from the 3rd lot and am quite happy with them.

Your post saying there are little gains above the headers with the exhaust is a good data point and leads me to believe there is little gain for me in changing the exhaust. That did surprise me, but thats whats great about these forums. Now if I needed a new exhaust, that would be another issue and any gain with a replacement system when needed is a plus.

I think you both have great products for the exhaust, you have points to show why yours are different and potentially an improvement. I can see your points. There is no reason to bash DT. I would recommend continuing the discussion with data and an open mind that maybe they have a good product too, but is different than yours.

Again, this is tech and not the section to be marketing your wares, but to present your technical achievments, design and you have to be open to the dailogue.

 

[2000UZJ]

I'm going to go ahead and say this, because it's been under my skin ever since EMS responded to DT. Within this thread, EMS has claimed it's superior power to the DT systems, called the DT headers poor quality, and exploded with unprofessionalism towards DT (Nick). We know DT posted in this thread, they have been bashed several times by EMS in this thread alone, and then ontop of that EMS starts another thread asking about header quality and equal length tubes...the first picture is a DT header. Let's also not forget, like Rob said, DT was the first company to ever bite at the 100 Series. Every other company ran away. Now that there is a market for them, and proof that the 100 Series OEM manifolds are extremely poor, EMS comes FLYING in and claims their system is better than DT. I've owned a pair of DT headers, never got to install them, but the quality was top notch. I'm not sure how much better a couple of shiny tubes welded together can be, but if another one thinks he can organize 4 tubes on each side of the motor better, props to him. Why do these dyno results feel the same as the results from the "Don't Get Burnt" Safari test? My advise to EMS, send your shiny exhaust system to RobRed. RobRed is a well known member, and won't run to Mexico with bent tubing. RobRed does some of the best write-ups, and most certainly the most accurate header comparison thread since everybody that installed headers confirmed a huge increase in power. If your truly scared that RobRed is going to install the exhaust on his truck, and then disappear forever into the woods, maybe we should all pitch in a little and just buy one from you to get the 3rd party response. If this was a Honda Civic crowd, you could tell them stickers add HP and everybody would do it. This is the Land Cruiser club, you've been in the game long enough to know this crowd doesn't budge with claims or self tested products.




So my question is this...how much more HP are we looking to get out of the equal length headers? Assuming you can clear the steering rack, frame, firewall, pumps/hoses/and make that 90* turn out of the engine? I'd like to see ~60HP, seems doable with such a praised and superior exhaust system.

 

[jonharis]

^ Thank you for that Nick. I among others have been feeling the same way.

 

[nakman]

Thats where my question lies. If I already have the majority of the gain with the headers (and there was gain) then changing out a working exhaust for little improvment makes no sense..

Romer I read that the exact other way- that the more substantial gain was the exhaust pipes, and the header gain was more negligible. Which is it? I am confused now, and yes kind of turned off by the recent reduction in professionalism here as well.

 

[phsycle]

I think it's pretty clear where my money will be going. Despite the "fewer horses" (and bayonets? As a registered republican, that was funny) or an "inferior product", how a company presents itself is more important to me.

 

[NKP Garage]

and yes kind of turned off by the recent reduction in professionalism here as well.

Agreed, It was a long day yesterday and to get home to see Nick @ DT's post got under my skin. I have deleted my reply to him from last night.

Let's keep this on track and tech related with solid information exchange

 

[NKP Garage]

I'm going to go ahead and say this, because it's been under my skin ever since EMS responded to DT. Within this thread, EMS has claimed it's superior power to the DT systems, called the DT headers poor quality, and exploded with unprofessionalism towards DT (Nick). We know DT posted in this thread, they have been bashed several times by EMS in this thread alone, and then ontop of that EMS starts another thread asking about header quality and equal length tubes...the first picture is a DT header. Let's also not forget, like Rob said, DT was the first company to ever bite at the 100 Series. Every other company ran away. Now that there is a market for them, and proof that the 100 Series OEM manifolds are extremely poor, EMS comes FLYING in and claims their system is better than DT. I've owned a pair of DT headers, never got to install them, but the quality was top notch. I'm not sure how much better a couple of shiny tubes welded together can be, but if another one thinks he can organize 4 tubes on each side of the motor better, props to him. Why do these dyno results feel the same as the results from the "Don't Get Burnt" Safari test? My advise to EMS, send your shiny exhaust system to RobRed. RobRed is a well known member, and won't run to Mexico with bent tubing. RobRed does some of the best write-ups, and most certainly the most accurate header comparison thread since everybody that installed headers confirmed a huge increase in power. If your truly scared that RobRed is going to install the exhaust on his truck, and then disappear forever into the woods, maybe we should all pitch in a little and just buy one from you to get the 3rd party response. If this was a Honda Civic crowd, you could tell them stickers add HP and everybody would do it. This is the Land Cruiser club, you've been in the game long enough to know this crowd doesn't budge with claims or self tested products.




So my question is this...how much more HP are we looking to get out of the equal length headers? Assuming you can clear the steering rack, frame, firewall, pumps/hoses/and make that 90* turn out of the engine? I'd like to see ~60HP, seems doable with such a praised and superior exhaust system.

I'm not sure where all this hostility is coming from. I just spent 30 minutes going through this entire thread and reading my posts and anything having to do with DT. I'm not seeing where all this drama is coming from other than the one post last night which was deleted and I apologize for that. It was a long day, and Nick @DT's post just rubbed me the wrong way.

On the topic of headers. Yes, the DT design is bad, they are quality material, they're assembled and welded well, but the design is bad. There's much room for improvement. Does that mean that people with DT headers should switch over? In my opinion, that answer is no. If you already have the DT headers on, leave them there, it's not worth the hassle and labor of switching them out for another header even if it does perform better. But if you're a new customer looking to install headers, I think a better designed set with better power and flow characteristics should be given consideration if/when it becomes available.

Romer I read that the exact other way- that the more substantial gain was the exhaust pipes, and the header gain was more negligible. Which is it?

I am not sure at this point because we have no solid proof with a different set of headers yet. As I pointed out earlier, it could just be that the motor has reached is maximum efficiency on the stock tune and isn't going to benefit from better flow past this point. But from past experience with other engines and other vehicles we've made parts for, my guess would be that there are still substantial gains to be had. By substantial I mean headers that gain another 10-20whp.

 

[2000UZJ]

I'm not sure where all this hostility is coming from. I just spent 30 minutes going through this entire thread and reading my posts and anything having to do with DT. I'm not seeing where all this drama is coming from other than the one post last night which was deleted and I apologize for that. It was a long day, and Nick @DT's post just rubbed me the wrong way.

On the topic of headers. Yes, the DT design is bad, they are quality material, they're assembled and welded well, but the design is bad. There's much room for improvement. Does that mean that people with DT headers should switch over? In my opinion, that answer is no. If you already have the DT headers on, leave them there, it's not worth the hassle and labor of switching them out for another header even if it does perform better. But if you're a new customer looking to install headers, I think a better designed set with better power and flow characteristics should be given consideration if/when it becomes available.


I am not sure at this point because we have no solid proof with a different set of headers yet. As I pointed out earlier, it could just be that the motor has reached is maximum efficiency on the stock tune and isn't going to benefit from better flow past this point. But from past experience with other engines and other vehicles we've made parts for, my guess would be that there are still substantial gains to be had. By substantial I mean headers that gain another 10-20whp.

One thing you must realize about the 100 crowd, we are a very open group, we enjoy seeing future products. Due to our trucks, the upgrades are still quite limited. We enjoy going back and forth, sometimes it gets out of hand, we all realize that. But when a vendor starts another thread to indirectly bash another's product, that to me isn't a good value. If you had kept your mouth shut about the DT design, started a header length thread without placing DT in your sights, you could of flown under the radar and made a better designed header without attracting so much attention. The 100 guys are blood thirsty for more power, better upgrades on the performance side, they really don't exist yet. You have 100% brand loyal members, and others that don't care if it's Monroe or King shocks. I understand we have bad days, and others get under our skin. The first thing I would do if I was a vendor was take it to a PM, settle your differences there. Posting after a rough day and finding out your competitor posted in the thread for your product was wrong, DT should of PM'd the person he was replying too, but he may of had a bad day as well.

All in all, if you can create a quality header/cat-back and it proves to be better than the DT, that doesn't mean the DT system is poor design. That's like saying the BMW 335i is a terrible design compared to the Mercedes E550. You could of passed the EMS system as a "high flow", versus "DT is a terrible design". IMO both systems look amazing, it all comes down to the sound for me. I'm not trying to make a rocket ship out of the 100, it can barely outrun a snail in the corners.

Good to see you deleting that response, I'm not going to drag this out any further. I'd like to see some more data for the exhaust, process of bending, is your system a copy of the OEM tubing, or was it drawn up on a computer and custom fitted? Will your full length headers be compatible with OEM exhaust systems?

 

[Anthony.L]

I just want a full quality manifold to tip system! Too much to ask? ;P

 

[NKP Garage]

Good to see you deleting that response, I'm not going to drag this out any further. I'd like to see some more data for the exhaust, process of bending, is your system a copy of the OEM tubing, or was it drawn up on a computer and custom fitted? Will your full length headers be compatible with OEM exhaust systems?

Agreed! Let's keep this tech and usable data. No need for drama.


Yes, the headers we will be building in the next couple months will bolt onto the OEM exhaust. Nope, not a copy of the OEM tubing at all. Everything we do is built from scratch and always mandrel bent tubing.

 

[NKP Garage]

I just want a full quality manifold to tip system! Too much to ask? ;P

the midpipes and catback are in production already, Working on the headers, should be ready in a couple months or so.

 

[Romer]

Lets not refer to another vendor as bad design. Had enough of that with the election.

Naknan. Robs testing showed a significant increase. I felt it when they were installed. The current test on the end exhaust shows a significant increase. That elks me either on their own will enhance performance. I would have thought the exhaust would have provided significant improvement above the headers. I guess we will never know unless it gets added to Robs test truck. Hint. Hint

 

[Doug Thorley Headers]

All hostility aside..There IS NOT room in the 100 series engine bay to do a 100% equal length header and still keep it bolt on and most importantly clear the steering column, UCA frame mounts and all of the other accessories blocking the exhausts path. Could someone do a long tube design and remove the front cats and squeeze a bit more power out ? Of course but is that what the customer wants? Our headers are a bolt on and WILL be carb compliant. We have some of the most talented R&D personnel working for us and the proof is in the #'s. If someone feels they can make more power in that given area then awesome. Please try as that is how innovation begins. Long story short..This is not our first rodeo and we back it with history and a warranty.

Nick

 

[NKP Garage]

Romer, just sent you a PM

Nick, there's room. We'll post results of the outcome in a couple months when the Christian's truck is back here for the header mockup.