3FE vs 1FZFE, for other reasons (1 Viewer)

[ozarkmud]

I ended up paying a premium for a 3x locked 80 series. If I could do it again, I'm starting to think that wouldn't be so essential. A lot of people end up with aftermarket lockers, anyway. And the lockers I have are intermittent as it is. The center and front can work, but don't always come on when needed.

It sounds like the 3FE has attainable manual swaps, unlike the 1ZFE. Is there also a way to swap a manual transfer case? Is the option of AWD worthwhile in a snowy area? I've always driven 4WD with a locked center in the snow. Occasionally wanted other lockers for really bad conditons, but have yet to do AWD with nothing locked. Can the CDL be made to be 100% reliable, more or less?

3FE also is going to come with the semi-float rear and drums. Semi-float has some drawbacks and advantages, but I definitely prefer drums in the rear. Hard to get fully floating + drums.

Of course the 3FE is a lot more gutless, but with a manual swap, and maybe especially driving 2WD, it seems like it'd be comparable to the 1ZFE. Of course, one could also get a 60 series, but it comes with a 4 speed and the gearing is not adequate, stock, even for 31" tires (personal experience). The 60 series doesn't seem to handle as well, is a lot noisier, but is already manual/robust with no buttons to worry about. A lot of people seem to like 2F with fuel injection.

I guess I underestimated the 80 series as a fantastic family rig, for safety and seats. The lockers aren't as important to my driving, even though I like having them.

 

[Skitz]

Ramblings of a lost 80 poetry…

In the end… there’s nothing here…

 

[Devils Paw 80]

I ended up paying a premium for a 3x locked 80 series. If I could do it again...

You looking for advice? Don't do it again. Keep the 80 you've got right now and fix the lockers.

 

[SpenserAK]

I just wanna know where Marco is

 

[60 toy ota]

The manuals that you swap into an early 80 series would be from the 60 series, so unless you spring for an H55f ($$$) your gearing will be the same as a 60, at least up to the diffs.
This also means, by default, the transfer case will be all manual cause you'll need to use the one out of a 60 (which I love).
Yes the electric center diff can be fully dependable like mine which has seen no maintenance, just somewhat regular use throughout it's whole life.
It's nice to have the awd in snowy weather, though now that I have the button I end up engaging it anyway if I'm ahead of the plows (I probably don't have to, in all honesty I think it's a leftover habit of shifting on the fly in the 60)
Oh yeah, without the awd you can just lock the hubs if you anticipate sketchy driving, then when that icy curve approaches you just "puuull the lever, kronk!"
Also. If you're really gonna go down that road, I can attest from personal experience that the 2fe is a dream of an engine. 10/10 would reccomend. Just get a complete 60 driveline, pull the head, then throw it all under the 3fe head

 

[manofthewoods]

I ended up paying a premium for a 3x locked 80 series. If I could do it again, I'm starting to think that wouldn't be so essential. A lot of people end up with aftermarket lockers, anyway. And the lockers I have are intermittent as it is. The center and front can work, but don't always come on when needed.

It sounds like the 3FE has attainable manual swaps, unlike the 1ZFE. Is there also a way to swap a manual transfer case? Is the option of AWD worthwhile in a snowy area? I've always driven 4WD with a locked center in the snow. Occasionally wanted other lockers for really bad conditons, but have yet to do AWD with nothing locked. Can the CDL be made to be 100% reliable, more or less?

3FE also is going to come with the semi-float rear and drums. Semi-float has some drawbacks and advantages, but I definitely prefer drums in the rear. Hard to get fully floating + drums.

Of course the 3FE is a lot more gutless, but with a manual swap, and maybe especially driving 2WD, it seems like it'd be comparable to the 1ZFE. Of course, one could also get a 60 series, but it comes with a 4 speed and the gearing is not adequate, stock, even for 31" tires (personal experience). The 60 series doesn't seem to handle as well, is a lot noisier, but is already manual/robust with no buttons to worry about. A lot of people seem to like 2F with fuel injection.

I guess I underestimated the 80 series as a fantastic family rig, for safety and seats. The lockers aren't as important to my driving, even though I like having them.

Last weekend I drove over the Sierras through the only open pass. Using the default full time 4WD. It handled like a champ. I did add the switch to lock the differential (no pin 7 mod though), but never touched it because doing so shuts off ABS. And, ABS works awesome in the snow and especially ice. Rear disc brakes are better. If they weren't, they wouldn't have put them on.

 

[60 toy ota]

Curious why you prefer the drums in there rear?

 

[ozarkmud]

Thank you all for your replies!

The manuals that you swap into an early 80 series would be from the 60 series, so unless you spring for an H55f ($$$) your gearing will be the same as a 60, at least up to the diffs.
This also means, by default, the transfer case will be all manual cause you'll need to use the one out of a 60 (which I love).
Yes the electric center diff can be fully dependable like mine which has seen no maintenance, just somewhat regular use throughout it's whole life.
It's nice to have the awd in snowy weather, though now that I have the button I end up engaging it anyway if I'm ahead of the plows (I probably don't have to, in all honesty I think it's a leftover habit of shifting on the fly in the 60)
Oh yeah, without the awd you can just lock the hubs if you anticipate sketchy driving, then when that icy curve approaches you just "puuull the lever, kronk!"
Also. If you're really gonna go down that road, I can attest from personal experience that the 2fe is a dream of an engine. 10/10 would reccomend. Just get a complete 60 driveline, pull the head, then throw it all under the 3fe head

Interesting about the 2FE. It seems to have a really solid reputation. It sounds like the H55f costs between $3-5k, is that right? Definitely spendy. Nice to know that the transfer case comes with it, so it'd be a manual setup. I just like knowing the lever is there, although if the button is just as reliable, I guess that's not too bad. I just climbed up a trail with the 80 and when I needed at least the center diff lock, none of the lockers would come on. It was pretty disappointing and I just had to carefully back down.

Last weekend I drove over the Sierras through the only open pass. Using the default full time 4WD. It handled like a champ. I did add the switch to lock the differential (no pin 7 mod though), but never touched it because doing so shuts off ABS. And, ABS works awesome in the snow and especially ice. Rear disc brakes are better. If they weren't, they wouldn't have put them on.

I think this is the first I've heard of ABS being good in snow and ice. I find with ABS, you can't get it to bite and dig in, but it always depends. I've always preferred having it disabled, except in maybe dry/wet paved conditions. I disagree about the rear discs, more on that below.

Curious why you prefer the drums in there rear?

Drums will hold a rig at a standstill better than discs (on my fully floating disced rig, if I shift into 4Low when it's cold and revved up, it'll want to jump forward. Drum brakes tend to not do this). They also double as the parking/emergency brake and tend to be a much stronger parking brake than the mini-drums with discs. Toyota themselves have said that drums in the rear are more reliable and discs are not necessary for such a rig most of the time. This was about the Tacoma as a lot of people are still asking why they don't come with discs in the rear. I think discs in the rear is more of a selling point in reviews than anything else.

I find it really goofy having to have a mini drum anyway just for parking. But discs all around might make sense for a heavy duty tow vehicle, or a sports car.

 

[jonheld]

I 100% agree on the factory locker statement. They're just not worth the premium that folks charge for them and aftermarket ones work better.
The CDL should lock/unlock easily and quickly. If yours doesn't, then it needs a bit of maintenance.
Coming from a 91 FJ80 that I bought new in 1991 and daily drove for 25 years, the rear drums require more periodic maintenance to keep things working well than the FF rears. The FF rear is also MUCH easier to maintain as far as bearings, etc.
Parts for the 3FE are becoming more and more difficult to source.
Both the 3FE and 1FZ versions benefit from a gear change. I ran 4:88s in both the 91 and 97 LX450, and if you're swapping gears, it's the time to add lockers.

Living in the northeast, the fulltime 4WD is excellent. Depending on conditions, I keep all 3 diffs open to avoid understeer in curves. I would never want to go back to part time 4WD. It just works so well and is very predictable.

 

[60 toy ota]

I guess stopping "better" is too vague a term when talking about abs. Abs will always allow you to stop with better control (ie in the trajectory you point the car in), but unless you have almost no traction you'll stop quicker without abs. I'm personally a fan of it in most situations.

I hear what you're saying on drums vs discs, but I've not found a properly functioning (key word) disc setup to be lacking in performance on the 80. I also appreciate the redundancy in having 2 completely independent systems. I once had the adhesive fail on a rear brake shoe in the 60. Because the two systems share that component neither method was safe

 

[Marco Lau]

I just wanna know where Marco is

Right here. I won't comment on this. My 3FE has been nothing but joy and it is very capable. I wouldn't hesitate to pickup another 3fe project if i have to do it again.
To OP, i ran 488 with a high and low transfer underdrive with 37s and a Nomade VB in my A440F. It will keep up with 1FZs on highway and steep grades, just burn a tad more gas doing so. I am also part-time. Desmog and have the typical timing advances.

 

[ozarkmud]

I 100% agree on the factory locker statement. They're just not worth the premium that folks charge for them and aftermarket ones work better.
The CDL should lock/unlock easily and quickly. If yours doesn't, then it needs a bit of maintenance.
Coming from a 91 FJ80 that I bought new in 1991 and daily drove for 25 years, the rear drums require more periodic maintenance to keep things working well than the FF rears. The FF rear is also MUCH easier to maintain as far as bearings, etc.
Parts for the 3FE are becoming more and more difficult to source.
Both the 3FE and 1FZ versions benefit from a gear change. I ran 4:88s in both the 91 and 97 LX450, and if you're swapping gears, it's the time to add lockers.

Living in the northeast, the fulltime 4WD is excellent. Depending on conditions, I keep all 3 diffs open to avoid understeer in curves. I would never want to go back to part time 4WD. It just works so well and is very predictable.

That's funny, I thought I had read that FF rears require a lot more work (as far as bearings go). I think they should be serviced every 1-2 years or something. I still need to do that. I do like that if the axle breaks, the wheel doesn't necessarily come off. I imagine they are a bit heavier. I can see the drums needing more periodic work. The rear disc calipers use sliders which I am not a fan of. I prefer having pistons on both sides and no slider, they tend to wear better.

I'm 90% sure I'm on stock gearing, but with the 1FZ with stock-ish tire size, it feels fine for me. I'd be surprised not wanting to gear lower with bigger tires, though, which most people run.

From what I understand, the 1FZ has more main bearings which seems like a big win. I do feel like the power is adequate, but haven't worked in depth on both enough to have a strong preference yet.

I guess stopping "better" is too vague a term when talking about abs. Abs will always allow you to stop with better control (ie in the trajectory you point the car in), but unless you have almost no traction you'll stop quicker without abs. I'm personally a fan of it in most situations.

I hear what you're saying on drums vs discs, but I've not found a properly functioning (key word) disc setup to be lacking in performance on the 80. I also appreciate the redundancy in having 2 completely independent systems. I once had the adhesive fail on a rear brake shoe in the 60. Because the two systems share that component neither method was safe

The cases that ABS bites me the most are when I'm stopping downhill on a sheet of ice. I'm already going slow, but it just refuses to grab. I find it a little dangerous for that, although I can see other scenarios where it'd work alright. Tires though are definitely the most important thing. Mountain snowflake at minimum, but preferrably a dedicated winter tire.

Wow, I haven't heard of a failure like that. I guess the shoes aren't riveted? That is a good point. I have a Sequoia with the disc rear and was really bummed to find out that the entire parking brake internals were removed. Something you probably wouldn't see with drums in the rear, but who knows.

 

[Broski]

The factory locker Can be finicky. In 8 years of ownership I have not had any issues with the front or center locker the rear has had issues from moisture getting in there from a badly Placed breather from the Factory.
that was corrected for later years.
And on mine now.
When there working correctly they work like a charm.
One thing that factory lockers can do is be locked Manually with a few hand tools, no other locker that I know of can do that.
That being said I did not pay A premium for my locked 80.

JMHO fix what you have.
apples to apples a
1FZ will walk away from a 3FE all day long
There both great rigs
The best Cruiser is the one you own !!!

 

[SNLC]

In other markets 80’s came with a manual trans. That being the H150/151. It is a great trans, recently had a chance to buy one (suited for 1FZFE) but don’t have a need at this time. They also came part time 4wd with locking hubs.

Cheers

 

[ozarkmud]

The factory locker Can be finicky. In 8 years of ownership I have not had any issues with the front or center locker the rear has had issues from moisture getting in there from a badly Placed breather from the Factory.
that was corrected for later years.
And on my now.
When there working correctly very work like a charm.
One thing that factory lockers can do is be locked Manually with a few hand tools, no other locker that I know of can do that.
That being said I did not pay A premium for my locked 80.

JMHO fix what you have.
apples to apples a
1FZ will walk away from a 3FE all day long
There both great rigs
The best Cruiser is the one you own !!!

I did not know they could be locked manually! Do you have a link to a thread on that? I tried searching and it didn't seem like there was a definitive and tested method that I could find easily. Do you know how I could reroute that breather on the rear in case I'm having similar issues?

I agree, definitely the best one is the one you actually own. I have a 2nd gen 4Runner that I like quite a bit, but I debate getting another 80 series (the one we have definitely belongs more to my wife -- she loves it) to share more parts in common. The IFS is a lot more supple on the washboard and it gets better gas mileage, but I love the size of the 80 for our family and the split rear hatch/tailgate is great. Not a fan of the rear window setup on the 4Runners. And the hatchback on the 3rd+ gens can get very gummy doing lots of gravel miles.

 

[SpenserAK]

Right here. I won't comment on this. My 3FE has been nothing but joy and it is very capable. I wouldn't hesitate to pickup another 3fe project if i have to do it again.
To OP, i ran 488 with a high and low transfer underdrive with 37s and a Nomade VB in my A440F. It will keep up with 1FZs on highway and steep grades, just burn a tad more gas doing so. I am also part-time. Desmog and have the typical timing advances.

For the record, just giving friendly sh*t. 3FE is a legend for good reason.

 

[Marco Lau]

For the record, just giving friendly sh*t. 3FE is a legend for good reason.

haha. All good. 3FE or 1FZ-FE...they are what they are....Enjoy!

 

[ozarkmud]

Is there a notable longevity difference given the lower number of main bearings? I think the 3FE has a few less than 1FZ's 7, which is supposed to be the ideal amount.

 

[baldilocks]

Is there a notable longevity difference given the lower number of main bearings? I think the 3FE has a few less than 1FZ's 7, which is supposed to be the ideal amount.

It would stand to reason that 7 main bearings would last longer than 4 simply due to the greater bearing surface are. I think, though, that the 7 bearings in the 1fz were intended mainly to support significantly more HP.

With the dealer installed super charger power/torque output was twice that of the 3fe but that’s just the beginning. The 1fz can handle, iirc, something in the realm of 700-750 HP without bottom end upgrades. With upgrades motor heads around the world pump 1,000+ HP out of 1fz’s with good dependability/durability.

The 1fz has been used for performance type applications in a variety of vehicles that you might find surprising.

The 3fe and the 1fz both serve the general purpose uses that most of us depend on it for but they are quite different animals that Toyota had quite different visions for.

 

[inkpot]

It would stand to reason that 7 main bearings would last longer than 4 simply due to the greater bearing surface are. I think, though, that the 7 bearings in the 1fz were intended mainly to support significantly more HP.

With the dealer installed super charger power/torque output was twice that of the 3fe but that’s just the beginning. The 1fz can handle, iirc, something in the realm of 700-750 HP without bottom end upgrades. With upgrades motor heads around the world pump 1,000+ HP out of 1fz’s with good dependability/durability.

The 1fz has been used for performance type applications in a variety of vehicles that you might find surprising.

The 3fe and the 1fz both serve the general purpose uses that most of us depend on it for but they are quite different animals that Toyota had quite different visions for.

The 7 main bearings also support the crankshaft much better for hi rpm. I think the 5200 rpm limit is very conservative. Mine has 25800 miles on it and it rolls up past 5000 rpm several times every week.