Front Flex?

[akarilo]

For starters, as far as I am concerned, the front end is the "weak link" of the 80's rock crawling capabilities. I've read threads on hitch pin mod, skinny radius arms, 3-Link, x-link, etc.

I have an extra set of radius arms and considered a 3-link setup utilizing those. Some have chimed in stating that the tie rod will interfere too easily to make it worthwhile. I'm looking for an "enduro" setup which doesn't hinder on-road drivability, but offers improved flex in the front end. Don't need a JODO or ActionJackson setup, just somthing in between stock and extreme. I'm sure I'm not the only one brainstorming this.

Any ideas (that are worth a crap)

Just trying to open up some discussion and exchange ideas.

 

[Ebag333]

I don't think you'd like a 3-link setup for on road handling.

Tons of threads already on this....

 

[akarilo]

Tons of threads already on this....

Yeh, I think I've read them all. There's got to be a solution that will address the issues though. Brainstorm people!

 

[kidglove13]

Did Toolsrus from the board here do something with the factory arms.
I think he left one as is and cut the front off the other one, I think.
I have been pondering this for a while.
3-link with a heavy duty sway for on road and disconect it when off road

 

[VCCruzr]

Interested too.......

 

[ravencr]

I'll be reviewing this some more after I install my Slee 6" lift, because I here there's no droop with that setup and can be fixed with some shock location changes, and different shocks. I want mine to stuff and droop as much as possible up till the springs are about to droop out of the perch slightly...after that it's pointless and just for show in my opinion. The key in my opinion is to have a balanced vehicle where the front and rear work equally as well and one doesn't over compensate for the other, which in the end results in lots of body roll instead of a flatter driving vehicle.

Chris

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

For starters, as far as I am concerned, the front end is the "weak link" of the 80's rock crawling capabilities. I've read threads on hitch pin mod, skinny radius arms, 3-Link, x-link, etc.

I have an extra set of radius arms and considered a 3-link setup utilizing those. Some have chimed in stating that the tie rod will interfere too easily to make it worthwhile. I'm looking for an "enduro" setup which doesn't hinder on-road drivability, but offers improved flex in the front end. Don't need a JODO or ActionJackson setup, just somthing in between stock and extreme. I'm sure I'm not the only one brainstorming this.

Any ideas (that are worth a crap)

Just trying to open up some discussion and exchange ideas.

What are you trying to do that you cant do with what is available today?

100's of 80's out there do 4+ trails without any problems with stock control arms. Seat time is your best mod...get out and wheel it!

 

[Hayes]

While I don't want to discourage any innovation or experimentation, I have to agree with Phil. The 80 works well within its fundamental design. I also wonder if folks would get better on-the-trail flex from the front end if they left their rear antisway bar on--I think this makes for a more balanced flex overall (rear antisway on, front off).

 

[ravencr]

The problem is like power...we all want more of it...lol.

Chris

 

[Cruisin']

I agree with Hayes on the sway bar part of it. Though I'm only on a mild lift, I've found a great improvement on the trails with front sway bar off, rear on. I've measured with a forklift, and there is no extra flex, but the front is allowed work more easily which makes for more controlled body movements, and better balance between front and rear axle movement.

I'll be interested to see what technical ideas come about in this discussion.

While I don't want to discourage any innovation or experimentation, I have to agree with Phil. The 80 works well within its fundamental design. I also wonder if folks would get better on-the-trail flex from the front end if they left their rear antisway bar on--I think this makes for a more balanced flex overall (rear antisway on, front off).

 

[Hayes]

the front is allowed work more easily which makes for more controlled body movements, and better balance between front and rear axle movement.

Agreed 100%

 

[CreeperSleeper]

I agree with Hayes... I'm running no sways on J springs and the fact of the matter is, 3-link isn't worth it. I would rather lift a front tire (I have lockers, who cares?) and have the truck stable than super flexy and scary.

That being said, I love Dusty's 80... *drool*

 

[Walking Eagle]

The problem is you're not always going up stuff, sometimes you are coming down.

The one situation where the lack of front flex can make things really squirlly (sp) feeling is coming down a ledge. There are some large ledges at Disney (about 1.5-2hrs from akarilo) - actually, there are ledges anywhere from 2" to 8 ft. The 2-3 ft ones are the problem. Up is o.k. You put passengers front, the whole body tilts to the left, and climb on up. The truck feels solid through the whole deal. When dropping down though, you start to drop one tire at a time to keep from dragging, and as that tire drops, it pulls the whole body with it because it can't flex. It feels as if the whole truck is going to go 1/2 arse over tea kettle, 1/2 side flop. I've not flopped in this situation, I'll usually just let off the brakes and come down too fast and too hard.

I agree 100% as well with controling the flex, and balancing the truck, but you can gain front flex and still have it balanced.

I'm leaning toward Y-link radius arms for simplicity myself.

I think the X-link could be done behind the axle with some creativity.

3 link as has been said can get tricky, but it can be made to work just fine on the street, just a matter of tuning.

One of the biggest shortfalls is there isn't much available in the way of springs that have adiuqate travel. My J's unseat themselves in the rear the way it is (will pop out 3-4"). I've heard the 4" OME comp springs and Slee 4" springs are even worse about that. No experience with FOR, but since he's tuned the springs and shocks to work together, I imagine you go much beyond that and you're S.O.L. Coil overs sure would help, but who has the dime.

I say we just start cutt'n up your arms and see what happens

I forget, what you run'n for shocks up front?

 

[Tapage]

Superior made " super flexy " control arms for Patrol and Cruiser .. ( here a pic of patrol ones .. )

stock patrol vs Superior Eng arms ..

But I saw no secret in the design .. they assure better front flex ..

 

[Hayes]

How do they assure better flex?

 

[Nay]

Build a heim based crossover steering setup on the top of the front steering knuckle arms and then 3 link the stock arms (cut off one front mount).

If you really need that flex, the steering conversion should be extremely simple and a no brainer to get away from the tierod contact issues.

Having said that, every rig has its issues. The 80's front arms are not real high on the 80's list of limiting issues, and any compromise to dual use in order to address that issue is trading a minor problem for a negative category change in functionality.

I have a pretty simple rule of thumb for modifying dual purpose vehicles: as soon as you need to re-engineer the suspension, you are driving the wrong vehicle for the wrong purpose.

Plus I don't get all the fuss. My arms flex just fine and I almost never pick up a tire despite being on only a 10" travel suspension. The problem with the front arms is they are not very comfortable at slowish speeds in rough terrain. Not a big deal when you are already wheeling a tractor in a tux.

 

[akarilo]

The problem is you're not always going up stuff, sometimes you are coming down.

The one situation where the lack of front flex can make things really squirlly (sp) feeling is coming down a ledge. There are some large ledges at Disney (about 1.5-2hrs from akarilo) - actually, there are ledges anywhere from 2" to 8 ft. The 2-3 ft ones are the problem. Up is o.k. You put passengers front, the whole body tilts to the left, and climb on up. The truck feels solid through the whole deal. When dropping down though, you start to drop one tire at a time to keep from dragging, and as that tire drops, it pulls the whole body with it because it can't flex. It feels as if the whole truck is going to go 1/2 arse over tea kettle, 1/2 side flop. I've not flopped in this situation, I'll usually just let off the brakes and come down too fast and too hard.{QUOTE]

Holy crap, sombody speaks my language. That is the problem I encountered that brought forth this post; almost flopped the rig descending a trail out at Chandler Park (with the kids in the truck). Not trying to be a "4+ trail expert" or any of that jazz. Simple fact is the front of the 80 has room for improvement and it's probably not as difficult as it's being portrayed.

 

[Hayes]

Descending ledges is precisely where I've felt that losing the front but keeping the rear antisway bars helped. Your results may vary.

 

[akarilo]

I am going to try the front sway removal, as I used to run the SAS 4runner that way. Does anybody daily drive without the front sway? I'm not into the dissconnect thing to go wheeling.

 

[Nay]

The problem is you're not always going up stuff, sometimes you are coming down.

The one situation where the lack of front flex can make things really squirlly (sp) feeling is coming down a ledge. There are some large ledges at Disney (about 1.5-2hrs from akarilo) - actually, there are ledges anywhere from 2" to 8 ft. The 2-3 ft ones are the problem. Up is o.k. You put passengers front, the whole body tilts to the left, and climb on up. The truck feels solid through the whole deal. When dropping down though, you start to drop one tire at a time to keep from dragging, and as that tire drops, it pulls the whole body with it because it can't flex. It feels as if the whole truck is going to go 1/2 arse over tea kettle, 1/2 side flop. I've not flopped in this situation, I'll usually just let off the brakes and come down too fast and too hard.{QUOTE]

Holy crap, sombody speaks my language. That is the problem I encountered that brought forth this post; almost flopped the rig descending a trail out at Chandler Park (with the kids in the truck). Not trying to be a "4+ trail expert" or any of that jazz. Simple fact is the front of the 80 has room for improvement and it's probably not as difficult as it's being portrayed.

I want to see a picture of an 80 descending an 8' ledge

This is an interesting question because what is being stated is not about coming down, it's about coming down at an angle.

You fawkers are crazy to take a rig as big and heavy as the 80 at an angle down a big ledge to avoid scraping. I ride my sliders, arms, and t-case skid down big stuff all the time.

The idea that poor man's 3-linking the 80 would allow you to drop a front tire 2'+ down a ledge at an angle and keep the rig stable is crazy. The 80 rear moves way too much, way too easily, especially as you add lift.

You put the weight on the front of the rig and then ask the front to do the flexing on the way down the ledge on an 80? Good luck with that.

Your junk should be built to drag, and hard if needed. Risking a roll to avoid that is nuts. I have seen a lot of pics of 80's in situations that they should have walked through where a winch is out and a tire is way in the air. Some of that is s***ty suspensions dynamics , but more often it is a rig sideways in a situation that should have been driven straight through.

I seriously get chills thinking about what you guys are trying to solve for. Which gets to the real problem: the low hanging 80 frame. You wouldn't be driving sideways off a ledge if that wasn't such a problem. Ya ain't gonna fix it with the arms, either.

Tools has done what you can do with the stockish arms. His are custom built and narrowed to allow more movement in the axle mounts, front mount missing on one side. Just copy if you are ok with only one mount bolt on one side over time.