Your Thoughts on the LC 250? (8 Viewers)

[malden]

I love a 3 pedal German car and electric windows.

It's about 80% MT in Europe now but when I started driving it was pretty close to 100%. We drive a lot of diesel cars and don't have nearly the traffic issues with the amazingly long commutes that seem common in the US. Driving a couple hours each way or more inching in traffic does not sound fun. And just from reading this forum, I really get the impression that many people are conditioned into a kind of "daily-driver" syndrome by the rigors of their individual commuting requirements. Cars should be about more than getting to work, I guess in Europe driving can still be considered something fun to do and not something to dread or to need a four wheel sofa to endure. All my cars are MT but I walked to work my entire career and went decades with no car in town at all. And I love 3 pedal German cars too, even a few with electric windows.

 

[Phillyd2]

It's about 80% MT in Europe now but when I started driving it was pretty close to 100%. We drive a lot of diesel cars and don't have nearly the traffic issues with the amazingly long commutes that seem common in the US. Driving a couple hours each way or more inching in traffic does not sound fun. And just from reading this forum, I really get the impression that many people are conditioned into a kind of "daily-driver" syndrome by the rigors of their individual commuting requirements. Cars should be about more than getting to work, I guess in Europe driving can still be considered something fun to do and not something to dread or to need a four wheel sofa to endure. All my cars are MT but I walked to work my entire career and went decades with no car in town at all. And I love 3 pedal German cars too, even a few with electric windows.

I spend a lot of time in Europe and agree that it was close to 100% but in the past few years the trend is definitely changing.

 

[malden]

I spend a lot of time in Europe and agree that it was close to 100% but in the past few years the trend is definitely changing.

ATs were always considered inferior, unreliable, not fun and expensive to buy and repair. Kind a puts a chill on sales that combination. Today, ATs have improved and people in Europe like anywhere else probably want to text and play with computers while driving. Not easy to do with a MT.

 

[Phillyd2]

ATs were always considered inferior, unreliable, not fun and expensive to buy and repair. Kind a puts a chill on sales that combination. Today, ATs have improved and people in Europe like anywhere else probably want to text and play with computers while driving. Not easy to do with a MT.

From my experience automatic transmissions were considered a luxury afforded only by those like rich and lazy Americans. On the European versions being crap, I can't say.

 

[TWILLY]

The fascination with rolling windows down by hand and manually shifting gears is fascinating.

It’s merely a fascination with being able to roll one’s window up or down, as they’re designed to. I’ve had LC electric windows fail on long trips — rattled to death by dirt roads. It’s inconvenient. Toyota’s manual windows, in my experience, last forever.

 

[Adam R]

Lived in Belgium for 3.5 years and traveled extensively across Europe. I once got a rental car and the agent was very apologetic.

"I'm sorry Sir, but all we is a car with an automatic transmission. Can you drive an automatic?" My response... No problem. I'm an American!

 

[Jetboy]

There's 2 primary reasons Europeans drive MTs: fuel economy and cheaper vehicle price. Has little to do with joy of rowing gears and everything to do with lower costs.

Best selling car in Europe is an automatic though. So it's not all MTs.

 

[shane0mack]

There's 2 primary reasons Europeans drive MTs: fuel economy and cheaper vehicle price. Has little to do with joy of rowing gears and everything to do with lower costs.

Best selling car in Europe is an automatic though. So it's not all MTs.

The gas mileage reasoning is outdated now that ATs have surpassed MTs in fuel economy.

 

[malden]

There's 2 primary reasons Europeans drive MTs: fuel economy and cheaper vehicle price. Has little to do with joy of rowing gears and everything to do with lower costs.

Best selling car in Europe is an automatic though. So it's not all MTs.

That best seller is leading because of government tax incentives to corporations that have spurred “fleet sales” mainly in Germany where the car is produced. In the “retail” sales category, the top ten are the usual assortment of econoboxes like the Sandero, Clio, Peugeot 208, Golf etc. and very few of those are sold with ATs.

A few years ago I decided to buy a small, inconspicuous and easy to live with car to drive in Paris and I bought an A3. If I think back to that buying decision, it never crossed my mind to get an AT. And my decision had nothing to do with cost or gas mileage. I just like driving an MT.

If I had to buy a car in the US I would be inclined to buy an AT especially if I lived near a high traffic city center/suburb. Different horses for different courses.

The Dying Art of Driving a Stick Shift
“In Europe, 80% of cars sold have manual transmissions. In the U.S., it’s only 1%.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dy...urope-america-manual-transmission-11648408115

 

[Jetboy]

That best seller is leading because of government tax incentives to corporations that have spurred “fleet sales” mainly in Germany where the car is produced. In the “retail” sales category, the top ten are the usual assortment of econoboxes like the Sandero, Clio, Peugeot 208, Golf etc. and very few of those are sold with ATs.

A few years ago I decided to buy a small, inconspicuous and easy to live with car to drive in Paris and I bought an A3. If I think back to that buying decision, it never crossed my mind to get an AT. And my decision had nothing to do with cost or gas mileage. I just like driving an MT.

If I had to buy a car in the US I would be inclined to buy an AT especially if I lived near a high traffic city center/suburb. Different horses for different courses.

The Dying Art of Driving a Stick Shift
“In Europe, 80% of cars sold have manual transmissions. In the U.S., it’s only 1%.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dy...urope-america-manual-transmission-11648408115

I don't think Audi sells an A3 with an MT anymore in France at least. The configurator doesn't offer an MT in any version I can find.

But I think it still holds - European cars are predominantly small, inexpensive, and fuel efficient cars. And MTs are chosen for cost savings. Nothing wrong with that. It's what most buyers want so it's what they build for the market. Average new car price in France is $25k USD. It's pretty hard to get new car pricing in the mid teens with decent quality automatic transmissions. In the USA it's $48k. There's a lot more content you can build in at the bottom end of the market for $25k vs $15k.

 

[malden]

I don't think Audi sells an A3 with an MT anymore in France at least. The configurator doesn't offer an MT in any version I can find.

But I think it still holds - European cars are predominantly small, inexpensive, and fuel efficient cars. And MTs are chosen for cost savings. Nothing wrong with that. It's what most buyers want so it's what they build for the market. Average new car price in France is $25k USD. It's pretty hard to get new car pricing in the mid teens with decent quality automatic transmissions. In the USA it's $48k. There's a lot more content you can build in at the bottom end of the market for $25k vs $15k.

There are 14 trims of the 2024 A3 available with a MT for sale in France according to my local Audi dealer. Their prices range from 33K to 48K euros.

European cars are not “predominantly small, inexpensive, fuel efficient cars” though there are probably more buyers for them than for Porsche 918 Spyders. And in a city like Paris or any EU capital city you will find about the same mix between high end luxury , midrange and economy focussed cars as you might in NYC or LA. The difference is that almost all the cars you will see on EU roads are MTs. And it is not because Europeans cannot rub two pennies together to buy an AT. We can afford to use Mercedes Benz, Audis and BMWs for taxis! Not the beat up GM wrecks you see in Manhattan.

 

[joseywales]

4Runner would have at least been closer to being accurate but there's literally a dictionary full of all sort of words that could have been used without whoring out the premier brand name and the legacy it earned.

Toyota has had Landcruiser badging on the Prados since the dawn of time. Best you just get over it now.

 

[jayp2]

That best seller is leading because of government tax incentives to corporations that have spurred “fleet sales” mainly in Germany where the car is produced. In the “retail” sales category, the top ten are the usual assortment of econoboxes like the Sandero, Clio, Peugeot 208, Golf etc. and very few of those are sold with ATs.

A few years ago I decided to buy a small, inconspicuous and easy to live with car to drive in Paris and I bought an A3. If I think back to that buying decision, it never crossed my mind to get an AT. And my decision had nothing to do with cost or gas mileage. I just like driving an MT.

If I had to buy a car in the US I would be inclined to buy an AT especially if I lived near a high traffic city center/suburb. Different horses for different courses.

The Dying Art of Driving a Stick Shift
“In Europe, 80% of cars sold have manual transmissions. In the U.S., it’s only 1%.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dy...urope-america-manual-transmission-11648408115

Not to derail the LC discussion but if government(s) were to take its foot off the scale/neck of manufacturers/citizens and permit car manufacturers to produce the cars that people want in ANY country......we would see very different vehicles than what is being currently offered.

This isnt an anti gov rant, its pointing out that gov in many cases is attempting to control businesses/citizens rather than function as a guard rail to prevent flagrant abuses/criminality as well as protect consumers.

Its unfortunate to say the least that nothing is being done to prevent data harvesting from owners of vehicles....cars are worse than cell phones.

*Privacy Not Included: A Buyer’s Guide for Connected Products

Your car can collect data about what you do, where you go, what you say, and even how you move your body. Find out what car companies do with that information.

foundation.mozilla.org

the 250 is a nice enough vehicle, better looking imho than recent predecessors but I was hoping for a reboot of the 40 and 60, simple, affordable and reasonably capable of being maintained and upgraded by the average owner.

 

[Jetboy]

There are 14 trims of the 2024 A3 available with a MT for sale in France according to my local Audi dealer. Their prices range from 33K to 48K euros.

European cars are not “predominantly small, inexpensive, fuel efficient cars” though there are probably more buyers for them than for Porsche 918 Spyders. And in a city like Paris or any EU capital city you will find about the same mix between high end luxury , midrange and economy focussed cars as you might in NYC or LA. The difference is that almost all the cars you will see on EU roads are MTs. And it is not because Europeans cannot rub two pennies together to buy an AT. We can afford to use Mercedes Benz, Audis and BMWs for taxis! Not the beat up GM wrecks you see in Manhattan.

That's interesting. On the Audi France car builder every engine option on every trim of the A3 is standard with the S-Tronic auto.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the cars Europeans buy. The average sale price around $25k USD tells me that for every 918 sold there must be about 250 $18k cars sold to average to $25k. The cheapest car Toyota sells is $24,500 in the USA. The model Y is the best selling car in Europe and it's an outlier. It's the largest car in the top 10. All others in the top 10 are small, inexpensive, and fuel efficient. Full size trucks alone account for more sales than the entire European top 10 models. It's not better or worse. It just is. Europeans spend a lot more on public transit and less on private cars. Americans buy cars that are on average roughly twice as expensive, significantly larger, and less efficient. You don't get a MT in an F150 or its competitors, you do in a Peugeot 208 and similar cars. If the market is buying supermini class, they're going to get a lot of MTs.

 

[Rednexus]

Many Europeans also make significantly less money than Americans and pay around 2X the taxes we do (of course, depending on the country). I work at a multi-national company headquartered in Europe and make around 50-60% more in U.S. dollars than my colleagues across the pond at the same level of experience and the same job function. Fuel is also around $5.60 USD/gallon in Europe vs. $3.25 here in Missouri right now.

Not only do the giant trucks not easily fit in European cities, but many Europeans also can't afford to purchase, insure, or fuel them like we can in the USA. I think most of us would also be clamoring for small, fuel efficient cars if our incomes were cut by a third or more and our taxes were doubled.

 

[Jetboy]

I think most of us would also be clamoring for small, fuel efficient cars if our incomes were cut by a third or more and our taxes were doubled.

Give it some time. We're working on it!

 

[jayp2]

I think most of us would also be clamoring for small, fuel efficient cars if our incomes were cut by a third or more and our taxes were doubled.

I'd rather work to ensure that tyrants arent permitted to achieve that.....

Prosperity = Peace and both would permit more people to own efficient cars AND recreational pigs like LC's

 

[malden]

Many Europeans also make significantly less money than Americans and pay around 2X the taxes we do (of course, depending on the country). I work at a multi-national company headquartered in Europe and make around 50-60% more in U.S. dollars than my colleagues across the pond at the same level of experience and the same job function. Fuel is also around $5.60 USD/gallon in Europe vs. $3.25 here in Missouri right now.

Not only do the giant trucks not easily fit in European cities, but many Europeans also can't afford to purchase, insure, or fuel them like we can in the USA. I think most of us would also be clamoring for small, fuel efficient cars if our incomes were cut by a third or more and our taxes were doubled.

Exactly. Disposable income in Europe is greatly impacted, in addition to lower salaries, by the big three: property costs, fuel and power costs and taxes. As a result of the lower income levels everything else is less expensive in Europe so things balance out. What you save in taxes in the States is gobbled up by the very high cost of living aggravated recently by inflation. I am stunned by the costs of everyday items, including food and medical costs in the States! I wonder how people can make ends meet. But they do. This discussion is a fascinating one that leads to a comparison of a very subjective concept called “quality of life.” I think Scottsdale AZ is a stunning place to live but I will be happy to go home this Fall.

And yes, we do drive smaller cars and if any of you have been to Europe you will know why. Our civilization is thousands of years old. Many of our roads were plotted out by the Romans and some seem like they have not been updated since (except for our superb autoroute system which is very up to date.) Many of our towns and villages have tiny medieval roads. Foreigners tend to find these places charming, but you probably do not want to be driving an F350 there. Thanks to Napoleon we have the beautiful grand avenues in Paris and the city is pretty easy to drive through in most cars. And despite the differences in disposable income, if you take a walk around Paris you will see the same mix of luxury cars, middle range cars and econoboxes that you would see in NY or LA. So in the end, things even out. If you have not been to Europe, get a passport and come over and see these things for yourself. Internet searches can only take you so far in life.

 

[malden]

That's interesting. On the Audi France car builder every engine option on every trim of the A3 is standard with the S-Tronic auto.

Here are a few of the 14 trims of A3s with MTs on offer in France in 2024. You've peaked my interest and I will have to stop by my dealer when I am home.

 

[GTV]

Many Europeans also make significantly less money than Americans and pay around 2X the taxes we do (of course, depending on the country). I work at a multi-national company headquartered in Europe and make around 50-60% more in U.S. dollars than my colleagues across the pond at the same level of experience and the same job function. Fuel is also around $5.60 USD/gallon in Europe vs. $3.25 here in Missouri right now.

Not only do the giant trucks not easily fit in European cities, but many Europeans also can't afford to purchase, insure, or fuel them like we can in the USA. I think most of us would also be clamoring for small, fuel efficient cars if our incomes were cut by a third or more and our taxes were doubled.

Without derailing this into a political debate I think it's important to note that while taxes in Europe are much higher, they go towards things like medical care and higher education that are free at the point of use. Two things that are notoriously expensive and are leading causes of personal debt in the USA.