Yet ANOTHER anti-wrap bar question...

[Weber Sarge]

Not totally sure what design you guys are arguing here , is it basically a 5th arm style or rigid arm ? In the past I've used both a rigid (Breeze Industries in Canada) and a semi-soft 5th arm derived from a Late Model dirt car . Neither worked perfectly and the Breeze unit loved to bend axle housings if you really pushed it hard . I've had them rip the crossmember mount , ben housings , get the slip joint stuck from hardened grease and snap axleshafts like toothpicks . I'd be interested in some pics of a bar design that doesn't induce hard shock loads against the gears or axles , but instead gently controls wrap without affecting articulation .

Sorry for poking in , but this is why I'm leaning away from soa on such a heavy swb rig ....
Sarge

 

[Fast Eddy]

these bars do experience a tremendous amount of load put apon them when the pinion is trying to rotate up. i've seen bars built using .187" wall thickness tubing bend on a single climb. so we build ours using .250" DOM tubing. ain't gonna bend.

I'm not even going to tell you what mine is made of. Let's call it a prototype.

You're 100% right about the grease. It needs to be removed as it is. It needs a grease zerk somewhere so it doesn't have to be removed to be greased. It's not much different than a driveshaft in this regard, however.

Not totally sure what design you guys are arguing here

I am arguing that the basic design that many people use for their anti-wrap has a drawback and proposing a solution.

I'd be interested in some pics of a bar design that doesn't induce hard shock loads against the gears or axles , but instead gently controls wrap without affecting articulation .

I believe my design fits this description.

Sorry for poking in , but this is why I'm leaning away from soa on such a heavy swb rig ....

Poke away. It's a discussion, right? I think you'd lean back towards SOA if you drove my rig around. It drives like buttah!

 

[pbgbottle]

breeze industries made one for a cruiser? i would like to see that one .
breeze has closed up shop ,
i was going to ask them if they could make one for my cruiser but never got around to it .
i never new that they made them for cruisers.

Not totally sure what design you guys are arguing here , is it basically a 5th arm style or rigid arm ? In the past I've used both a rigid (Breeze Industries in Canada) and a semi-soft 5th arm derived from a Late Model dirt car . Neither worked perfectly and the Breeze unit loved to bend axle housings if you really pushed it hard . I've had them rip the crossmember mount , ben housings , get the slip joint stuck from hardened grease and snap axleshafts like toothpicks . I'd be interested in some pics of a bar design that doesn't induce hard shock loads against the gears or axles , but instead gently controls wrap without affecting articulation .

Sorry for poking in , but this is why I'm leaning away from soa on such a heavy swb rig ....
Sarge

 

[bugsnbikes]

heya Eddy, what size tubes/thicknesses did you use for the outer and inner shafts? and do you feel they are oversized and could be made strong enough using slightly thinner?

 

[reddingcruiser]

All engineering issues aside, I think the best track bar out there is the one that works;p. (Sounds like something Yogi Berra would say.) So take that!

P.S. And IMHO any good track bar design should have a failure point that yields before any other critical member of the suspension or frame sustains fatal damage.

 

[Weber Sarge]

No, Breeze never made a Cruiser-specific bar setup . I had a triangulated one on the old Samurai for years . It worked great , never s-bent a set of springs after I installed it but bent 3 axle housings and broke a whole pile of axle shafts including some expensive unobtainium alloy units . Their design used a solid plate that wrapped all the way around the housing in two halves which were welded at the seam and the perimeter of the housing . The triangle bar then bolted to that bracket and extended forward pretty much matching the driveshaft angle . It protected the rear shaft really well and used a sliding sleeve with solid bar stock extending to the crossmember mount . That joint up front could move forward/rear and rotate but there was still a bit of binding if the frame was lifted away from the axle on both sides at once . I have pics of it here somewhere....

It worked well enough that a few times , just screwing around I could dump the dual-friction clutch @6k in 2nd gear , 5.14 tcase gears and pull the front wheels 4' off the ground , clutch finally ripped out the center splines/spring plates ....they still replaced it under warranty .

I think if it had used a softer mounting system at the axle end it may not have had so many drawbacks, overall design worked great but it hit the driveline so hard at times - axles would just pop.

Sarge

 

[orangefj45]

No, Breeze never made a Cruiser-specific bar setup . I had a triangulated one on the old Samurai for years . It worked great , never s-bent a set of springs after I installed it but bent 3 axle housings and broke a whole pile of axle shafts including some expensive unobtainium alloy units . Their design used a solid plate that wrapped all the way around the housing in two halves which were welded at the seam and the perimeter of the housing . The triangle bar then bolted to that bracket and extended forward pretty much matching the driveshaft angle . It protected the rear shaft really well and used a sliding sleeve with solid bar stock extending to the crossmember mount . That joint up front could move forward/rear and rotate but there was still a bit of binding if the frame was lifted away from the axle on both sides at once . I have pics of it here somewhere....

It worked well enough that a few times , just screwing around I could dump the dual-friction clutch @6k in 2nd gear , 5.14 tcase gears and pull the front wheels 4' off the ground , clutch finally ripped out the center splines/spring plates ....they still replaced it under warranty .

I think if it had used a softer mounting system at the axle end it may not have had so many drawbacks, overall design worked great but it hit the driveline so hard at times - axles would just pop.

Sarge

why did'nt you go to minitruck or cruiser axles? that's what most of the sammy guys around here run.

georg

 

[cruiserland]

I have built three separate tbars of the shown traditional design and destroyed them all, heavy wall, big joints all that
no offense to eddy, I would break that in a minute, I did consider a sliding design, but decided against it
northeast trails are fairly ruthless

finally have a design that seems to work exceptionally well for me, but it is a secret
it did stop the rear pinions from breaking
now I was snapping front outputs from front wrap
so well I made one for the front too
worked there, now transfer case just explodes
that tcase saver did save the top part
sneak peek at front mount

 

[Weber Sarge]

I had mini axles for it but just never had a chance to get it done since it was my DD for 12yrs . The Sami's axle housings I swear are spring steel , if you let them flex they will go right back , but tie 'em solid or truss them will cause permanent bending - much like the Cruiser's frame setup .
I got hurt in '06 and ended up selling it along with all the spare parts/new tub/axles to a guy in Indiana who's rebuilding it far as I know .

I hope that track bar above isn't tied to the tcase....
Sarge

 

[orangefj45]

I have built three separate tbars of the shown traditional design and destroyed them all, heavy wall, big joints all that
no offense to eddy, I would break that in a minute, I did consider a sliding design, but decided against it
northeast trails are fairly ruthless

finally have a design that seems to work exceptionally well for me, but it is a secret
it did stop the rear pinions from breaking
now I was snapping front outputs from front wrap
so well I made one for the front too
worked there, now transfer case just explodes
that tcase saver did save the top part
sneak peek at front mount

Quit fxxxin around Kina!

1-tons, links and an atlas. Done!

Cruiser axles and tcases have their limits ......

 

[orangefj45]

Well, hate to disappoint you Eddie. I picked up the rear of the cruiser with a bumper jack. The suspension dropped almost 6".

 

[orangefj45]

Pics of the bar in the same 40.

 

[orangefj45]

Zags, don't delete your post. It's spot on!!!!

Georg

 

[Fast Eddy]

Well, hate to disappoint you Eddie. I picked up the rear of the cruiser with a bumper jack. The suspension dropped almost 6".

Ok. I guess I'm done with my argument. I'm sure you couldn't remove the bolts from that bar with it jacked up like that, but I can't think of a reason why you'd need to. It's bound up there, but if it survives it, I guess it doesn't matter.

With the slider and the flat shackle It is never bound up. You can remove the bolts and the bar while parked on an articulation ramp. This reduces forces on all the welds.

We will see how mine survives over time and how much of a PITA it is to maintain the sliding joint.

heya Eddy, what size tubes/thicknesses did you use for the outer and inner shafts? and do you feel they are oversized and could be made strong enough using slightly thinner?

The inners are fzj80 lower links with one end cut off. The outer triangle is made of :cough:water pipe:cough:. The two rear inners are held into the tubing with roll pins. There is little force trying to pull the inners out of the triangle The foward-facing inner is fully floating in the tube and held inwards by a spring. If it were to ever go to production, the spring would be inside the tube, but it was a PITA to get it mounted in there and it works fine on the outside.

The day I made it the metal shop was closed and I was really just making a prototype, and the pipe is conveniently the right size. The triangle needs to be redone with stronger tubing and the weld joint closer to the end at the front. I've been wheeling three or four times, but nothing very difficult. I've got an idea in my head of where it will finally fail. We'll see.

To answer your question, I don't think I'd make any part of it thinner, but I would use better tube and take Georg's advice to use more readily-available parts. As it sits my total investment is about $20 for the outer tubing and the roll pins. All the other parts were in my parts pile.

 

[zags]

The fact is that leaf springs will always be a compromise. while bars can help, they will still never perform nearly as well as a as properly designed link suspension. (plenty of disagreement on that subject too!) If you are pushing your rig hard enough to be breaking stuff, or plan to, it is time to consider investing in links and stop throwing money at repairing and patching over the inherent flaws of leaf springs.

 

[orangefj45]

Ok. I guess I'm done with my argument. I'm sure you couldn't remove the bolts from that bar with it jacked up like that, but I can't think of a reason why you'd need to. It's bound up there, but if it survives it, I guess it doesn't matter.

With the slider and the flat shackle It is never bound up. You can remove the bolts and the bar while parked on an articulation ramp. This reduces forces on all the welds.

We will see how mine survives over time and how much of a PITA it is to maintain the sliding joint.

Ed, stop trying to re-invent the wheel. Can you remove your leaf springs from the cruiser when it's on an RTI ramp? Have the hangers and shackle mounts ripped off the frame?

I didn't think so .......

Georg

 

[cruiserland]

naw,mount welded to skid, case is broken in half and laying on skid
prefer to think of it as an anti-wrap bar

 

[orangefj45]

The fact is that leaf springs will always be a compromise. while bars can help, they will still never perform nearly as well as a as properly designed link suspension. (plenty of disagreement on that subject too!) If you are pushing your rig hard enough to be breaking stuff, or plan to, it is time to consider investing in links and stop throwing money at repairing and patching over the inherent flaws of leaf springs.

Thank you very much. Amen brother!!!!

 

[cruiserland]

Quit fxxxin around Kina!

1-tons, links and an atlas. Done!

Cruiser axles and tcases have their limits ......

The fact is that leaf springs will always be a compromise. while bars can help, they will still never perform nearly as well as a as properly designed link suspension. (plenty of disagreement on that subject too!) If you are pushing your rig hard enough to be breaking stuff, or plan to, it is time to consider investing in links and stop throwing money at repairing and patching over the inherent flaws of leaf springs.


all true

 

[cruiserland]

so back to the anti wrap bar

6-8 inch tower on axle, whatever height keeps bar most level at rest
fixed mount both ends with heim for twist
1/4 inch wall
basically a single link

think about the forces
if you unbolted "don's" design and cycled the susp in a wrap cycle, the front of the bar would move up/down a drastic amount;this is the force you are trying to stop....while also letting the axle go up and down
if you put a short tower on axle and again cycle for wrap, the tower moves front to back, while the axle moves up and down,totally separating the forces
now we can focus on keeping that tower upright.
A single link, horizontally forward to a point near the dshaft pivot will keep the top of tower vertical, yet allow the axle to move up and easily
I merely welded a HD shackle on my skidplate
the antiwrap bar will dictate the angle of the pinion, it changes slightly while cycling, but nowhere near as much as it could without, and always is within working angles

one of these days I will build a link setup.....
that little buggy is inspiring
yours is cool too georg
when is the special on for the atlas?